Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

[sweetsunray]

17 minutes ago, longest night said:

Bran forced Hodor to hold that door. The 3EC intentionally put Bran in that time to force Bran to turn Willis (Walder) into Hodor. Hodor was a simpleton, does that mean his free will and life is any less important? Did he deserve to be a simpleton?

Bran wanted a wheelchair for himself.

I do not deny Bran forced Hodor. Just pointing out that if Hodor had the the wits to make a choice, we can conclude he would have made the same choice of his own free will (especially since he's a descendant of Dunk). Like Jorah chooses to use his body to defend Dany in epi 3, like Jojen chose to get Bran to the cave even if he knew it would mean his death, like Meera time and time again chose to defend Bran, like Osha chose to protect Rickon, etc...

Hodor's mind and Bran's control of him is a snake eating its own tail. Bran controls Hodor's mind because he is too simple to wield a sword intelligently himself, but Hodor still tries to protect Bran when not controlled. This mind control though ends up being the cause why Willis lost his mind long before Bran was born. But without Willis having lost his mind, Bran would never have needed to control his mind to protect them on his escape and journey to the cave, because Willis would have chosen to do so himself.

Nowhere, did I say that Hodor's free will or his life is less important. Nowhere do I say he deserved to be a simpleton. What I am saying is that we get indications that Willis would have died a hero with his wits intact. But yes, it would have been better if Willis could have shown us that, of his own free will and with his wits intact.

It's like that scene of Dany and Jorah in epi 3. If you had your eye on Jorah, you saw he pushed Dany out of the way and threw himself before the wight's sword that somehow pierced his plate armor. If you instead focused on Dany in the same movement, it looked as if she pushed and threw Jorah in front of her as a shield against the wight, which was infuiriating to see instinctively... and yet even if Dany had indeed done such a thing to Jorah (she didn't, was just a trick of perception if you focused more on her), we would all recognize that Jorah would have wanted to die shielding her. And all we hypothetically would be angry over is Dany not giving Jorah the chance to do it by choice and voluntarily. The result though is the same.

[longest night]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I do not deny Bran forced Hodor. Just pointing out that if Hodor had the the wits to make a choice, we can conclude he would have made the same choice of his own free will (especially since he's a descendant of Dunk). Like Jorah chooses to use his body to defend Dany in epi 3, like Jojen chose to get Bran to the cave even if he knew it would mean his death, like Meera time and time again chose to defend Bran, like Osha chose to protect Rickon, etc...

Hodor's mind and Bran's control of him is a snake eating its own tail. Bran controls Hodor's mind because he is too simple to wield a sword intelligently himself, but Hodor still tries to protect Bran when not controlled. This mind control though ends up being the cause why Willis lost his mind long before Bran was born. But without Willis having lost his mind, Bran would never have needed to control his mind to protect them on his escape and journey to the cave, because Willis would have chosen to do so himself.

Nowhere, did I say that Hodor's free will or his life is less important. Nowhere do I say he deserved to be a simpleton. What I am saying is that we get indications that Willis would have died a hero with his wits intact. But yes, it would have been better if Willis could have shown us that, of his own free will and with his wits intact.

It's like that scene of Dany and Jorah in epi 3. If you had your eye on Jorah, you saw he pushed Dany out of the way and threw himself before the wight's sword that somehow pierced his plate armor. If you instead focused on Dany in the same movement, it looked as if she pushed and threw Jorah in front of her as a shield against the wight, which was infuiriating to see instinctively... and yet even if Dany had indeed done such a thing to Jorah (she didn't, was just a trick of perception if you focused more on her), we would all recognize that Jorah would have wanted to die shielding her. And all we hypothetically would be angry over is Dany not giving Jorah the chance to do it by choice and voluntarily. The result though is the same.

That's some warped logic, let's force someone to do something because we think they would have done it anyway.

You are now arguing that it's okay to strip someone of their free will as long as the ends justifies the means, and we should base the moral implications of such actions based on 'indications' they would have done it anyway.

Look at the look of horror Hodor had on his face when he came out of his mind control right after Bran forced Hodor to kill someone. It's the episode where they are held captive.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Were it blood sacrifices or executions of criminals? It's ignorant people like Andals who called it sacrifices. They installed "trial by combat" instead to determine who lives or who dies. Who would you rather have for judge if you were innocent and wrongly accused of a crime? Trial by combat, bribed witnesses or a greenseer?

Jojen paste is a theory as of yet unconfirmed. That said, Bran has eaten suspicous pork on his way to Craster's just to survive. Most people seem to miss that part, but then again eating wights is a way to both survive as well as be rid of it in the environment they're in. It is possible that tasting blood helps a greenseer to make his first true connection to the weirnet. The carves faces and eyes of a tree, are also only a teaching tool, but not a permanent requirement. It doesn't seem though that this is a continued necessity. 

There is something dark about greenseeing, coming with a price, but that doesn't make it evil. It's closest to "living nature" in the books, and nature can be warm sunrays on your face, flowers in the meadow, a cute baby in your arms. But it is also death, eat and be eaten.

Yes, Hodor is a victim of Bran's mistakes. Has he done anything like that ever since?

There is no utopia, but at least the Littlefingers and Varyses and Cerseis and potentially Danys won't be able to deceive society.

I get that people wish Dany would not have done what she did last epi and that they might try to point the finger at Bran for setting it in motion by telling Jon - that he is evil. Then again, Bran never informed anyone else before Jon told him to, and only to those Jon wished it too. He explicitly said - it is your choice. Jon had a right to know ASAP, because it's crucial information for his identity, to make choices for himself on the accurate data. Meanwhile the danger within Dany was always there and Jon was not objective about her (not saying he needed to be suspicious of her like Varys or Sansa), because he didn't know her. He displayed cognitive dissonance when it came to Dany all up to this episode. Just as much as it was Jon's choice to want to tell Sansa and Arya, it was Sansa's free will to tell it to Tyrion, and for Tyrion to tell Varys, for Varys to act upon it, etc. When a "truth" coming out makes someone else decide of their own volition to kill a million citizens, then the latter "cannot handle the truth" let alone "power". Truth and free will, that is what Bran used. I can't call that "evil". 

Did jon have a right to know? - YES

Should he have been told at that specific time? - NO 

Has this news snowballed out of control and caused chaos - YES

Is this Bran we are talking about or 3ER. Bran is no more, but we perceive him as Bran. The news of Jons ID has served no one but has resulted in 1000s of deaths,

If Bran was not part of the story, jon and dany would have been married and the realm united. No wall coming down, no varys death, etc.

Is Bran evil - No

Is the 3ER 'Evil' - YES or has perpertrated acts that have had no benefit to humanity.

And if Bran warged dany/drogon then they have the perfect weapon to extinguish humanity. The mad king could also have been an failed attempt - why is this important - we have no more flashbacks about this apart from the potential link to dany - and she may have been a convienient fall guy/girl.

I like the 3ER as the big bad more than what we currently have...tbh we have no idea what Bran/3ER has been doing and all complaining he has been do sweet fa

as for lightbringer….

Darkness lay over the world and a hero (city of ashes?/KL), Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water ( Fight against the NK?), the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart (Fight against Lannisters/KL), but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast (Dany). He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon (fuck knows - arya?) .^[1]

According to the Jade Compendium, since that day the sword became as warm as Nissa Nissa was and burned fiery hot during battles. Lightbringer was able to boil the blood of a monster when Azor Ahai thrust the sword through the belly of the beast. After steam poured from the beast's mouth and its eyes melted, its body burst into flame.^[2

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[sweetsunray]

Just now, longest night said:

That's some warped logic, let's force someone to do something because we think they would have done it anyway.

You are now arguing that it's okay to strip someone of their free will as long as the ends justifies the means, and we should base the moral implications of such actions based on 'indications' they would have done it anyway.

No, that's NOT what I said. In fact I used an example of another scene that could have been infuriating: if Dany had pushed and thrown Jorah in front of her as a shield against a wight. It is the same thing for Bran and Hodor. It is infuriating that he deprived him of his free will. I am NOT defending Bran's choice here.

I do recognize however that Willis would have chosen to do this himself, if he could have. Recognizing that doesn't make Bran "right" let alone even "gives him the right to decide for Hodor". But it sure still honors the man Hodor would have been out of his own free will.

[The Bard of Banefort]

12 hours ago, Xemi said:

You guys are still in denial about Bran ruling? All the worst leaks have been confirmed so far, it's going to happen. Just enjoy watching the trainwreck and the subsequent shitstorm it will cause on the internet.

I learned from the RamSan plot back in season five that denial just makes it that much worse when it comes to fruition. Nothing on this show is too illogical to be true. 

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

Did jon have a right to know? - YES

Should he have been told at that specific time? - NO 

Has this news snowballed out of control and caused chaos - YES

What it shows is that Dany does not have what it takes to deal with the truth EVER and always very liable to commit a massacre if circumstances put her under pressure. And ruling Westeros is an immense pressure. Ruling with that amount of power is LONELY. And there will always someone who will hate or disagree with a ruler. For example, even despite the loyalism that the Starks finally managed to gather by S8, house Glover still preferred to stay home. 

When the truth must be hidden, when one has to lie to a monarch to prevent them from massacring people, they shouldn't be in power. So, the sooner Jon knew the truth about himself, the better.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

just wonder if bran will be rumbled or will we all find out too late...that is a hell of a twist

[Consigliere]

4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I learned from the RamSan plot back in season five that denial just makes it that much worse when it comes to fruition. Nothing on this show is too illogical to be true. 

Rule of thumb when it comes to D&D: the more illogical/stupid it sounds, the more likely it is to be true. 

[longest night]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, that's NOT what I said. In fact I used an example of another scene that could have been infuriating: if Dany had pushed and thrown Jorah in front of her as a shield against a wight. It is the same thing for Bran and Hodor. It is infuriating that he deprived him of his free will. I am NOT defending Bran's choice here.

I do recognize however that Willis would have chosen to do this himself, if he could have. Recognizing that doesn't make Bran "right" let alone even "gives him the right to decide for Hodor". But it sure still honors the man Hodor would have been out of his own free will.

What Bran did each time he warged Hodor was evil. Did that make Bran evil in itself? No. However, he was manipulated all through that time by the 3EC to get him to the tree. Yet then we need to conclude the 3EC is evil. He forced this evil upon Hodor. Bran didn't do it realizing what he was doing, that was an accident, but it was evil nonetheless. However, Bran doesn't exist anymore. As Meera said, Bran died in that tree. The 3EC currently resides in Bran's body, and the 3EC is a puppet or the mastermind behind the children of the forest.

They created one tool to wipe out mankind, why not a second to control mankind?

[Cas Stark]

Bran ruling would definitely be extremely stupid, because the show hasn't shown him to be very helpful, or insightful, he doesn't even have human emotions or feelings toward his siblings.  The fact that they've had him sitting by the weirwood tree for 2 full seasons staring blankly and not had any lines could almost make me believe they would have him be the ruler, and it could then go in the 'massive missed opportunity for proper character arc' file, but right now, why would anyone in Westeros, even in Winterfell, want him as the ruler?  He sits all day, dreams in the past, once in a while he has a useful vision, but very rarely volunteers anything helpful to anyone.

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

Darkness lay over the world and a hero (city of ashes?/KL), Azor Ahai, was chosen to fight against it. To fight the darkness, Azor Ahai needed to forge a hero's sword. He labored for thirty days and thirty nights until it was done. However, when he went to temper it in water ( Fight against the NK?), the sword broke. He was not one to give up easily, so he started over. The second time he took fifty days and fifty nights to make the sword, even better than the first. To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart (Fight against Lannisters/KL), but once more the steel shattered. The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast (Dany). He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon (fuck knows - arya?) .^[1]

For the books I think that Nissa Nissa is a name for a land, and the swords are meteors. One landed in deep ocean, but still had a ripple effect. Another landed in the Sunset sea (byeond the lion of the Rock), and also had a ripple effect. A third hit a continent (Nissa Nissa) in the heart of it, and the Fourteen Flames were born out of it, the place where dragons were born.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, longest night said:

What Bran did each time he warged Hodor was evil. Did that make Bran evil in itself? No. However, he was manipulated all through that time by the 3EC to get him to the tree. Yet then we need to conclude the 3EC is evil. He forced this evil upon Hodor. Bran didn't do it realizing what he was doing, that was an accident, but it was evil nonetheless. However, Bran doesn't exist anymore. As Meera said, Bran died in that tree. The 3EC currently resides in Bran's body, and the 3EC is a puppet or the mastermind behind the children of the forest.

They created one tool to wipe out mankind, why not a second to control mankind?

3EC did not force Bran to force Hodor. That was Bran's choice too.

The whole idea of evil CotF and 3EC is And I reject the show-explanation of the CotF making the Others. The Weewees aren't even like the book-Others.

[longest night]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

3EC did not force Bran to force Hodor. That was Bran's choice too.

The whole idea of evil CotF and 3EC is And I reject the show-explanation of the CotF making the Others. The Weewees aren't even like the book-Others.

The 3EC took him to the time with Wylas and told him to do it.

"Listen to your friends, Bran."

You may reject it, but I bet it's something we learn in the books. I also think we will learn that the Others are out to stop the 3EC and CotF, not just decimate men.

[HouseLancaster]

54 minutes ago, longest night said:

Bran forced Hodor to hold that door. The 3EC(R) intentionally put Bran in that time to force Bran to turn Wylas (Walder) into Hodor. Hodor was a simpleton, does that mean his free will and life is any less important? Did he deserve to be a simpleton?

The 3EC(R) wanted a wheelchair for himself. The idea he doesn't want any more is a lie.

There has been no evidence to suggest Bran has warged into another person since the Hodor tragedy. Nor has there been any scene to imply he's abusing his abilities purely for the aquisition of power. And given how the show telegraph's plot points I would give very little chance to this narrative becoming apparent with only one hour (ish) to go. It's also worth noting, I'm not saying theyre pure, both Bran and the Raven have been a force for good - and that's all we've really been given thus far.

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, longest night said:

The 3EC took him to the time with Wylas and told him to do it.

"Listen to your friends, Bran."

Yes. And yet it was still Bran's choice. And he was at least shocked and sad when he saw what it did. He knew then that it was wrong. And he never did it again. It was evil and he never did it again, instead giving people as much free will as he possibly can ever since.

As for the proposal Bran doing this to Dany is ridiculous. Skinchanging a human being of his full faculties leads to stuff like Varamyr's prologue with Thistle. They become instantly aware of it and fight the skinchanger in their mind. Sounds like something the Andals would believe of greenseers, you know those people who committed wholesale genocide for their own greed.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

 

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

What it shows is that Dany does not have what it takes to deal with the truth EVER and always very liable to commit a massacre if circumstances put her under pressure. And ruling Westeros is an immense pressure. Ruling with that amount of power is LONELY. And there will always someone who will hate or disagree with a ruler. For example, even despite the loyalism that the Starks finally managed to gather by S8, house Glover still preferred to stay home. 

When the truth must be hidden, when one has to lie to a monarch to prevent them from massacring people, they shouldn't be in power. So, the sooner Jon knew the truth about himself, the better.

Dany lost her team and her children. she was in grief, she panicked and was a fish out of water. Jons reveal served to isolate her from him - he alone could have taken her over the line. the reveal tore them apart and served no purpose apart from jon 'needed to know'. 

You are being too harsh on dany.

Jon did not need to know - it served no purpose apart from weakening the home team.  If jon did not know, they would have been in such a strong position.

This could all be wrong and Bran/3ER is a wise ol tree elf, but it seems to fit the show really well. 

[Lollygag]

This article basically states that D&D came up with the WW's origin on their own. The books imply that ice and fire are powers "old and dark" meaning they're connected somehow, and the implication is that they were never created, but always were, waiting to be awakened. 

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/26/game-of-thrones-night-king-origin/

Quote

EW asked GoT showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss what inspired them to add the character to their HBO hit series.

“It was almost logical as you went back in time, as you create the prehistory for all this,” Weiss said. “We’ve seen what the White Walkers do, we’ve seen how they perpetuate themselves and created the wights. If you’re going backwards, well, they made these things … so what made them? We always liked the implication that they weren’t some kind of cosmic evil that had been around since the beginning to time but that the White Walkers had a history — that something that seems legendary and mythological and permanent wasn’t. They had a historical cause that was comprehensible like the way the wars on screen we’re seeing unfold are comprehensible. They’re the result of people, or beings, with motivations we can understand.”

GRRM said that the Others are ice and Dany/dragons are fire. MMR's ritual contains a song with parts containing both water/ice and fire. 

AGOT Daenerys VIII

"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."

…

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

 

Dany lost her team and her children. she was in grief, she panicked and was a fish out of water. Jons reveal served to isolate her from him - he alone could have taken her over the line. the reveal tore them apart and served no purpose apart from jon 'needed to know'. 

You are being too harsh on dany.

Jon did not need to know - it served no purpose apart from weakening the home team.  If jon did not know, they would have been in such a strong position.

This could all be wrong and Bran/3ER is a wise ol tree elf, but it seems to fit the show really well. 

I am harsh on Dany, because this is her ultimate answer to loss, being unsure who to trust, and wanting cheers of the people. Jon could not give her Missandei back, not Rhaegal, not Jorah. Jon could not make the smallfolk welcome her like the people of Mereen did. Both Varys and Tyrion would be troubled. Even if Jon didn't know and a marriage had been arranged, Varys might still have switched over to supporting him. Tyrion would still free his brother. And at some point Jon and Dany would have a disagreement, and Jon would brood and retreat. And Dany would snap. It might have taken a month, a year or a decade. But it would have happened. Life is unfair. Life is hard and harsh. We all can break under the pressure of it. It is the strength and responsibility that we show in our deepest hour of loneliness and despair that proves our worth.

So, yes, Jon did need to know, before he got into a personal promise of marriage to his aunt. He had already taken a step too far by bending the knee to her, weakining his position with her.

Dany expressed the sentiment of never wanting to know. But Jon has never expressed the same sentiment.

[HouseLancaster]

On 5/14/2019 at 4:03 PM, Mystical said:

The only thing left for them to do to completely ruin the entire show is for Bran to end up King or whatever. He's let close to a million people die just this Season alone. Why would anyone want a guy to rule who doesn't give a fuck about people? He's like Dany in reverse. Dany kills everyone by action. Bran kills everyone by inaction. I'm sure in D&D's logic, that means he's better than Dany and oh so much better suited for a throne. No he's not. He's the exact same, he's just calmer about his 'evil'.

I don't know about this either. Again it's a stretch to call Bran evil. We don't even know what he knows or knew, if he can even make sense of the flashes of the future he''s seen, if he even know's was the future. What went down in Kingslanding - was he watching, did he know, can he warg into creature from such distance? Has any of this ever been clarified?

YES, if he is to be king I really hope his human side returns to him first. I do think if someone told me at the end of s1 that sweet kid would end up as king - I would have been extatic (the journey there hasnt been so good though).

Also, language!!

[longest night]

31 minutes ago, HouseLancaster said:

There has been no evidence to suggest Bran has warged into another person since the Hodor tragedy. Nor has there been any scene to imply he's abusing his abilities purely for the aquisition of power. And given how the show telegraph's plot points I would give very little chance to this narrative becoming apparent with only one hour (ish) to go. It's also worth noting, I'm not saying theyre pure, both Bran and the Raven have been a force for good - and that's all we've really been given thus far.

Bran died in that tree. Bran no longer exists and since the 3EC has taken control, we've learned very little of anything of what it has done. No one has yet to give a good explanation of why this 3EC who he himself says is not Bran, would care who Jon's parentage is. It didn't matter to the battle against the Others. Why did Bran need Sam to tell Jon who he is at that very moment when Sam was at his most emotional.

 

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes. And yet it was still Bran's choice. And he was at least shocked and sad when he saw what it did. He knew then that it was wrong. And he never did it again. It was evil and he never did it again, instead giving people as much free will as he possibly can ever since.

As for the proposal Bran doing this to Dany is ridiculous. Skinchanging a human being of his full faculties leads to stuff like Varamyr's prologue with Thistle. They become instantly aware of it and fight the skinchanger in their mind. Sounds like something the Andals would believe of greenseers, you know those people who committed wholesale genocide for their own greed.

Bran knew it was wrong. Bran doesn't exist anymore. Yes, we learn in Varamyr's prologue also that wargs who died can move their conscience to their bonded animal. It doesn't discount that it would be impossible for someone to do it to a human under the right conditions or with enough power.

What if the 3EC moved its conscience to Bran? In the books, he's being fed what everyone knows is Jojen paste, making him linked closer to the power. We don't know exactly what's happening in the books yet. However, in the show, we are repeatedly told Bran doesn't exist anymore. We aren't even sure the point that happens except for Meera who says Bran died in that tree. What if it happened right at the point that the old 3EC died?

What if the King's of Winter were puppets of the children of the forest until the Andal invasion who uprooted their power? I know people have this "noble savage" trope in their mind, but the cotf could very well be more like the Aztecs that offered human sacrifice to their gods.