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Wow, I never noticed that v.16


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21 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Justin Massey (Jon IV, ADWD 17), I think there might be more.

Excellent. House Massey a traditional Targaryen / Bloodraven ally.

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Tyrion has flaxen hair.

When his bowels were empty, Tyrion slipped on a bedrobe and roughed his thin flaxen hair with his fingers, all the more to look as if he had wakened from sleep.

Wow. If the flaxen hair people are associated with the Plumm and plum people, and the Plumm / plum people have an association with the Targaryens that seems pretty consistent, the flaxen hair fits with the theory that Tyrion is a secret Targ.

Thank you both for these examples.

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7 minutes ago, Seams said:

Wow. If the flaxen hair people are associated with the Plumm and plum people, and the Plumm / plum people have an association with the Targaryens that seems pretty consistent, the flaxen hair fits with the theory that Tyrion is a secret Targ.

Sigrin the shipwright on the Iron Islands also has flaxen hair. 

Please, no more of Tyrion is a secret Targ. I swear I will throw away my books if that happens.

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13 minutes ago, Seams said:

Excellent. House Massey a traditional Targaryen / Bloodraven ally.

Wow. If the flaxen hair people are associated with the Plumm and plum people, and the Plumm / plum people have an association with the Targaryens that seems pretty consistent, the flaxen hair fits with the theory that Tyrion is a secret Targ.

Thank you both for these examples.

I really love the symbolism of Sansa in purple and silver with Asshai stones and Tyrion in red and black at the Purple Wedding. He actually didn't kill Joff, but...Tyrion as Aerys' kid killed the Usurper. Ha!

This is especially fun if Tyrion is a chimera of Aerys' and Twyin's kid. Wouldn't that just get in Tywin's craw.

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9 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Sigrin the shipwright on the Iron Islands also has flaxen hair. 

Please, no more of Tyrion is a secret Targ. I swear I will throw away my books if that happens.

I'm not fond of A+J=T, but Tyrion as a chimera and the son of both Tywin and Aerys opens so many interesting doors given the history of Aerys and Tywin.

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In Game. Lord Littlefinger was perched on the window seat in Eddard's solar waiting for the Hand to enter, and he opened the conversation by remarking on the happenings in the yard. He did the same thing with Tyrion in Clash. 

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On 4/27/2018 at 10:50 AM, Seams said:

Are there other characters with flaxen hair?

The unsullied that (happily) served Kraznys one of his nipples

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Kraznys moved to the next eunuch in line, a towering youth with the blue eyes and flaxen hair of Lys

.AsoS Ch.23 Daenerys II

Tommen, who subsequently outgrew that first book weirdness

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Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers.

AGoT Ch.08 Bran II

Brienne

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Brienne broke off rowing. Sweat had stuck strands of her flax-colored hair to her forehead

ASoS Ch.01 Jaime I

If we are looking for hair that colour, rather than the word 'flaxen', we find

Edric Dayne

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Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey

.ASoS Ch.43 Arya VIII

Aurane Waters

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Aurane Waters seemed as bored as Cersei by all this prattle about septons. Seen up close, his hair was more silvery than gold

AFfC Ch.17 Cersei IV

and arguably Anguy

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an archer with a head of stiff yellow hair was shouting for ale.

ASoS Ch.13 Arya II

The Tattered Prince's hair seems targ-like, and not far from flaxen

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In the yellow candlelight his silver-grey hair seemed almost golden

ADwD Ch.60 The Spurned Suitor

There could be crypto-targs among the bald and the white-haired characters too, for example

the ghost of High Heart

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Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground.

ASoS Ch.22 Arya IV

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His hair was red on one side and white on the other, all matted and filthy from cage and travel. “A man could use a bath too,” he said

ACoK Ch.05 Arya II

Perhaps Ser Barristan had flaxen hair, decades ago

Quote

How long ago had his hair turned from sunlight into snow?

ADwD, Ch.55 The Queensguard

In fact, if we assume people with white hair, grey hair, no hair, and dyed hair might have or have had flaxen hair, unless specified otherwise, and add them to the list of blonds not specified as golden or dark haired, we get a long, interesting and far from exhaustive list of possible crypto-Targs:-

Septa Moelle, Moqorro, Ser Harys Swyft, the pisswater prince, plauge-faceless man,  Arnolf Karstark, Zahrina,  Harry Rivers, Sweets, Holly, the three sailors from the Goodheart the blind girl saw at Pyntos, the sixteen year old pit fighter that was gored by a boar, Brown Ben Plumm, Daario, Mormont's sex-slave in the Selhorys brothel, the widow of the waterfront, Homeless Harry, Lysono Maar, the Green Grace, Casso Morgat, Wylla Manderley, Clydas, Ser Archibald Yronwood, Illyrio, Leo Tyrell, Ser Byron, Brother Gillam, Darkstar, Erik Anvilbreaker, Lady Allanys, Rennifer Longwaters, Qyburn, Ser Denys Mallister, Oswell, Strong Belwas, Marrisa Frey,  Marei, Craster, Ser Axell Florent, Old Nan, the aged High Septon that came after the fat one, Endehar, Qhorin Halfhand, Dagmar Cleftjaw, Urswyk, Shagwell, Dolores Ed, Lothar Brune, Hod, Lord Velaryon, Maester Luwin, Ser Boros Blount, Ser Vardis Egan, Kurleket, Varys, Moreo, Illyn Payne, the catspaw

We know Aegon dies his hair blue to conceal the silver, and it is no secret that Viserys III, Rhaegar, Aerys II, Maester Aemon, and Bloodraven were Targaryens, even if, for some of them, their silvery hair became white in old age.

Fat Walda has 'limp yellow hair' which could be flaxen - limp indicates it is straight, thin and fine, and there is nothing to specify how pale the yellow is. Brienne, whose hair we know is flaxen, is also described as having limp yellow hair (ACoK, Ch.33 Catelyn IV). Hali has limp yellow hair, and Catelyn's catspaw too. Lank is not a lot different from limp, and we know Tyrion had 'a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white' (AGoT, Ch.05 Jon I)

No doubt (about original hair colour, that is) in the case of the Westerosi-born sellsword Dick Straw

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Dick Straw had cornflower-blue eyes, hair as white as flax, and an unsettling smile.

ADwD Ch.43 Daenerys VII

Dick Straw reminds me that straw and flax are pretty close in colour, and are sometimes used interchangeably eg. Brienne

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Beauty, they called her … mocking. The hair beneath the visor was a squirrel’s nest of dirty straw,=

ACoK Ch.22 Catelyn II

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It was not the first time Brienne had been mistaken for a man. She pulled off her greathelm, letting her hair spill free. It was yellow, the color of dirty straw, and near as brittle. Long and thin, it blew about her shoulders

AFfC Ch.04 Brienne I

This might allow Doreah to join the crypto-targs

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“You are foolish strawhead slave,”

AGoT Ch.23 Daenerys III

except her hair is described later in that chapter as 'the color of honey' and as she ails in the next book, the straw-like quality is clearly its texture

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Doreah grew gaunt and hollow-eyed, and her soft golden hair turned brittle as straw.

ACoK Ch.12 Daenerys I

In the case of Ser Ryman's Queen of Whores staw is more probably the colour

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Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was.

AFfC Ch.38 Jaime VI

in the case of the Second Son sentry it is explicitly the colour

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The other sellsword—a stripling, hardly more than a boy, with fuzz on his cheeks and hair the color of dirty straw—scooped up Penny under one arm.

ADwD Ch.57 Tyrion XI

In some cases the colour of 'straw' hair is anyone's guess

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Squatting beside the dead man he had named Jafer Flowers, Ser Jaremy grasped his head by the scalp. The hair came out between his fingers, brittle as straw.

AGoT Ch.52 Jon VII

in others, we are told

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His hair had turned white; much of it had fallen out, and what was left was stiff and dry as straw

ADwD Ch.20 Reek II

On Theon, we know he is 'a lean dark youth' AGoT Ch.01 Bran I, but there is an outside chance it refers only to his skin colouring, or his sardonic temperament. His family tend to have black hair, as we know from Euron Crowseye, who has hair as dark as any Baratheon's, and Aeron Damphair, and Asha as well.

Silver-haired Greyjoys are Balon definitely, and Victarion probably. We know he has 'hoarfrost' in his hair, and if Theon's description of Victarion as a 'grey bull' is more apt than most of what Theon tells Esgred, Victarion probably had dark hair too.So,there is an outside chance for secret Targs in the Greyjoy line, or that Theon inherited silver-white hair from Allanys. The reader has brown hair, so platinum hair isn't a feature of the Harlaws generally, as far as we can tell.

I'd like a drumroll for this last straw-head/secret Targ, but I can't find the emoticon so smug will have to do :smug:

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Hot Pie kicked his donkey, riding closer. “Hey, Lumpyface, you gimme that sword.” His hair was the color of straw, his fat face all sunburnt and peeling. “You don’t know how to use it."

ACoK Ch.01 Arya I

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

In Game. Lord Littlefinger was perched on the window seat in Eddard's solar waiting for the Hand to enter, and he opened the conversation by remarking on the happenings in the yard. He did the same thing with Tyrion in Clash. 

And he was wearing a plum doublet in both scenes.

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5 minutes ago, Walda said:

...

I'd like a drumroll for this last straw-head/secret Targ, but I can't find the emoticon so smug will have to do :smug:

ACoK Ch.01 Arya I

Wow! Thank you for this exhaustive list of examples.

I was thinking that GRRM might be using the specific word "flaxen" as a signal to show a parallel between two or more characters, and the "plum" parallel has been generally pointing toward Bloodraven so I wanted to see whether plum people are also flaxen people. But the hidden Targ search could include a wide range of possible candidates, as you point out, especially if the hair description is expanded to include everyone with pale blonde or white hair.

Flax and straw are both plants, so there may be good reason to group the people with straw-like hair in the same category with the flaxen-haired people. What do you make of Bran's bodyguard Hayhead and the jousting dummy made of hay that knocks Tommen off his horse at Joffrey's name day tourney?

I LOVE the Hot Pie implication. Yoren makes a point of emphasizing to Arya that the orphans from the streets of Flea Bottom never had fathers, and that "Ary" has to fit in with them. I suspect that all the orphans from Flea Bottom - Dunk, Davos, Hot Pie, Lommy, etc. - will have interesting back stories, even if GRRM doesn't reveal them to us.

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18 hours ago, Seams said:

The wineseller with the poison in the Western Market of Vaes Dothrak:

He was a small man, slender and handsome, his flaxen hair curled and perfumed after the fashion of Lys. When Dany paused before his stall, he bowed low. A taste for the Khaleesi? I have a sweet red from Dorne, my lady, it sings of plums and cherries and rich dark oak. A cask, a cup, a swallow? One taste, and you will name your child after me."

(AGoT, chapter 54)

Ser Maynard Plumm, a knight participating in the Whitewalls tourney:

Egg: Are you kin to Lord Viserys Plumm, ser?

"Distantly," confessed Ser Maynard, a tall, thin, stoop-shouldered man with long straight flaxen hair, "though I doubt that his Lordship would admit to it. One might say that he is of the sweet Plumms, whilst I am of the sour." Plumm's cloak was as purple as his name, though frayed about the edges and badly dyed. A moonstone brooch big as a hen's egg fastened it at the shoulder.

(The Mystery Knight)

Could be just a coincidence. Are there other characters with flaxen hair?

Wasn’t the guy s’posed to kill Bran blonde too?

Hmmmm... Also, there is the horse connection, in that Dany drags the winseller’s corpse behind a horse (and later gets a vision of this for some reason) and the assassin intended for Bran (I still don’t understand how Joff makes any sense as the one to send him) was hiding in the stables...

I would also point out that we have no idea where Val and her sister came from, also blonde, except that Mance returned North with them after visiting Winterfell.

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11 minutes ago, Seams said:

What do you make of Bran's bodyguard Hayhead and the jousting dummy made of hay that knocks Tommen off his horse at Joffrey's name day tourney?

Oh, I didn't consider Hayhead (I tend not to associate hay with straw as it is so much more nutritious...? but yeah, it is an obvious parallel)

The jousting dummy I am sure means something. I don't know what, but I was thinking something related to the straw sentinels that guarded Castle Black, and the scarecrow knight Ser Beric. Scarecrows seem to have a connection with the smallfolk.

ETA @LiveFirstDieLater, Val's hair is honey-blond, quite clearly not Targaryen silver-gold. Apart from that, yeah, we don't know where she comes from

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1 hour ago, Walda said:

Oh, I didn't consider Hayhead (I tend not to associate hay with straw as it is so much more nutritious...? but yeah, it is an obvious parallel)

The jousting dummy I am sure means something. I don't know what, but I was thinking something related to the straw sentinels that guarded Castle Black, and the scarecrow knight Ser Beric. Scarecrows seem to have a connection with the smallfolk.

ETA @LiveFirstDieLater, Val's hair is honey-blond, quite clearly not Targaryen silver-gold. Apart from that, yeah, we don't know where she comes from

For sure! Sorry I was comparing it to the foiled assassins after Bran and Dany.

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I've noticed this a long time ago and even shared it on other threads but will also post it here,it appears to be that anyone not having the traditional features of a family either doesn't inherit the lands or only keep them for a very short time. Some examples;

 

Duncan prince of Dragonflies with Blackwood coloring gives up his claim to the throne

Robb with his Tully features die without getting himself an heir.

Bran and Rickon are lost.

Dacey Mormont, who is tall and lanky contrary to short and muscular Mormonts die before even inheriting.

Jonos Bracken's bastard son he so prized and possibly hoped to leave his lands to (since he is his only son) dies.

Tion the Red dies but this probably doesn't count since all Tarbecks are dead.

Strong sons of Rhaenyra.

Quentyn Martell, who had brown hair instead of the Martell Black. He was second in line but Doran planned for him to inherit.

Joffrey who doesn't have the Baratheon features is dead without an heir, Tommen will also die, from prophecy.

Robert with no Targaryen features may also count since he died without a trueborn heir.

Valarr Targaryen with his brown hair and Daeron Targaryen with his blonde hair. 

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I've noticed this a long time ago and even shared it on other threads but will also post it here,it appears to be that anyone not having the traditional features of a family either doesn't inherit the lands or only keep them for a very short time. Some examples;

 

Duncan prince of Dragonflies with Blackwood coloring gives up his claim to the throne

Robb with his Tully features die without getting himself an heir.

Bran and Rickon are lost.

Dacey Mormont, who is tall and lanky contrary to short and muscular Mormonts die before even inheriting.

Jonos Bracken's bastard son he so prized and possibly hoped to leave his lands to (since he is his only son) dies.

Tion the Red dies but this probably doesn't count since all Tarbecks are dead.

Strong sons of Rhaenyra.

Quentyn Martell, who had brown hair instead of the Martell Black. He was second in line but Doran planned for him to inherit.

Joffrey who doesn't have the Baratheon features is dead without an heir, Tommen will also die, from prophecy.

Robert with no Targaryen features may also count since he died without a trueborn heir.

Valarr Targaryen with his brown hair and Daeron Targaryen with his blonde hair. 

Where Targs are concerned, the current Targs needed to be blonde, so the dark haired Targs needed to die as they inbreed. So plot reasons.

Bran and Rickon are still alive. Jeor is large/tall, not short. Cersei's kids can't really be considered Baratheons. Robert Arryn is written with so much detail, I suspect him to survive. He has brown hair. Basically, I think it's too early to make any conclusions yet. And I don't think Westeros will look much like it does now after everything is said and done anyhow. And it would be a bit silly to telegraph character fates by coloring, no? Not quite a neon sign, but close.

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Where Targs are concerned, the current Targs needed to be blonde, so the dark haired Targs needed to die as they inbreed. So plot reasons.

Bran and Rickon are still alive. Jeor is large/tall, not short. Cersei's kids can't really be considered Baratheons. Robert Arryn is written with so much detail, I suspect him to survive. He has brown hair. Basically, I think it's too early to make any conclusions yet. And I don't think Westeros will look much like it does now after everything is said and done anyhow. And it would be a bit silly to telegraph character fates by coloring, no? Not quite a neon sign, but close.

Cersei's kids inherit under the Baratheon name though. Bran and Rickon are alive but may not inherit because child lords are the bane of any house, we are told. Robert Arryn is a bad example, we don't know Jon's coloring.Harry looking like Jon don't necessarily mean Jon was also blond, facial features are enough. He may also die without heirs since LF expects him to die. I can't ever recall Jorah being tall. He is shorter than Barristan and he didn't get to pass bear island to a son/daughter anyway. As for Targs, introducing a Lyseni/Volantene bride somewhere along the line would also do the same instead of killing a whole lot of them.

Going through all the landed characters with a description I could find, I couldn't find any that didn't match the landed parent in appearence and yet furthered his/her line.

If there's any case I missed then yes it's cracked pot but so far it holds water.

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Randyll Tarly especially kills Florents in Bitterbridge. His wife Melessa is the eldest daughter of Lord Alester Florent and is second in line to inherit after Alekyne. This makes Randyll a much better candidate than the Tyrells for the Brightwater land grab. He didn't kill those Florents out of duty, he killed them to make things easier for his takeover of Brightwater.

After Brightwater is granted to Garlan we see his ambition for land again by arranging a marriage(possibly forcibly) between Dickon and William Mooton's eldest daughter and now heir Eleanor, who may very well be older than Dickon(wiki says she is 13, Dickon is 10-13).

This could also mean those who expect Randyll to turn his cloak for Danaerys may be right. Not only is he ambitious but he is also wronged by the Tyrells and the Crown.

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21 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Cersei's kids inherit under the Baratheon name though. Bran and Rickon are alive but may not inherit because child lords are the bane of any house, we are told. Robert Arryn is a bad example, we don't know Jon's coloring.Harry looking like Jon don't necessarily mean Jon was also blond, facial features are enough. He may also die without heirs since LF expects him to die. I can't ever recall Jorah being tall. He is shorter than Barristan and he didn't get to pass bear island to a son/daughter anyway. As for Targs, introducing a Lyseni/Volantene bride somewhere along the line would also do the same instead of killing a whole lot of them.

Going through all the landed characters with a description I could find, I couldn't find any that didn't match the landed parent in appearence and yet furthered his/her line.

If there's any case I missed then yes it's cracked pot but so far it holds water.

I don't know the percentage, but a lot of people don't accept them as Baratheons. And for some reason, they've never seemed interested in Storm's End which is kind of odd now that I think about it. The Starks are a complete toss up at this point. You can't arbitrary toss out the characters who don't fit because it doesn't work with your theory. The wiki says Jon Arryn was blonde. Quite a few think Robert will live because he's so developed as a character and the set up is too strong for him to die which means he won't. I agree. But again, you have a ? here. I said Jeor was tall. Jorah is described as shorter than Barristan, but as Barristan is tall, then you have another ? Introducing one blonde wouldn't be enough especially if Rhaegar needed to marry a Martell and Egg needed to marry a Blackwood. Hoster Tully had brown hair. You have too many question marks and assumptions especially as Westeros is poised to experience a massive death rate. We don't know how that'll work. Also, there's the Golden Company who will toss out a lot of families, Dothraki, Unsullied...it's just not going to be the same.

And GRRM isn't sure about the ending yet as he's not written it yet. He's not going to sacrifice major themes and characterization to make hair colors fit. He'd be the worst ever if he did that. And he certainly wouldn't put neon signs on their heads (literally?) giving away their fates.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

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36 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know the percentage, but a lot of people don't accept them as Baratheons. And for some reason, they've never seemed interested in Storm's End which is kind of odd now that I think about it. The Starks are a complete toss up at this point. You can't arbitrary toss out the characters who don't fit because it doesn't work with your theory. The wiki says Jon Arryn was blonde. Quite a few think Robert will live because he's so developed as a character and the set up is too strong for him to die which means he won't. I agree. But again, you have a ? here. I said Jeor was tall. Jorah is described as shorter than Barristan, but as Barristan is tall, then you have another ? Introducing one blonde wouldn't be enough especially if Rhaegar needed to marry a Martell and Egg needed to marry a Blackwood. Hoster Tully had brown hair. You have too many question marks and assumptions especially as Westeros is poised to experience a massive death rate. We don't know how that'll work. Also, there's the Golden Company who will toss out a lot of families, Dothraki, Unsullied...it's just not going to be the same.

And GRRM isn't sure about the ending yet as he's not written it yet. He's not going to sacrifice major themes and characterization to make hair colors fit. He'd be the worst ever if he did that. And he certainly wouldn't put neon signs on their heads (literally?) giving away their fates.

http://time.com/3994289/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-song-of-fire-and-ice-ending/

Westerlanders, most of the Reachman and most of the Stormlanders take them for Baratheons. Dornishmen also. We don't know what's the official stance of the vale is since they sat the war but Lysa accepts marriage to a man of the crown so she is also not on the bastard camp. War is also over in Riverlands with everyone bending the knee so they take Tommen as Baratheon as well.

Wiki is wrong on that. Jon Arryn was never stated to be blonde in the books as I have pointed out on the previous post. We are told that the blonde Harry Hardyng shares his looks, this doesn't mean they shared coloring. So Robert with his brown hair may or may not live, it has no relevance to my theory so far since we don't know how Jon was colored.

I am not arbitrarily tossing out characters, Rickon and Bran are dead to everyone but a select few with seemingly no prospects of gaining power.

My mistake, I read Jeor as Jorah but again, Jeor, just like Jorah is also never described as tall. He is imposing perhaps but it's =/= tall. 

I'm not sure why you brought Hoster. He has brown hair but all his children have Auburn hair just like his brother Brynden so he passed his seat to more Tully looking Edmure.

Ending of the series =/= fates of every single character and land and house. We have characters and houses a plenty we've never seen or even told of.

So my theory works perfectly fine so far, not a single ruler to be seen not carrying his house's features and passing it off to his offspring who also don't carry the features of the said house.

Again, if you have even a single example of such a character/house and text to back it up, please share.

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49 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Westerlanders, most of the Reachman and most of the Stormlanders take them for Baratheons. Dornishmen also. We don't know what's the official stance of the vale is since they sat the war but Lysa accepts marriage to a man of the crown so she is also not on the bastard camp. War is also over in Riverlands with everyone bending the knee so they take Tommen as Baratheon as well.

Wiki is wrong on that. Jon Arryn was never stated to be blonde in the books as I have pointed out on the previous post. We are told that the blonde Harry Hardyng shares his looks, this doesn't mean they shared coloring. So Robert with his brown hair may or may not live, it has no relevance to my theory so far since we don't know how Jon was colored.

I am not arbitrarily tossing out characters, Rickon and Bran are dead to everyone but a select few with seemingly no prospects of gaining power.

My mistake, I read Jeor as Jorah but again, Jeor, just like Jorah is also never described as tall. He is imposing perhaps but it's =/= tall. 

I'm not sure why you brought Hoster. He has brown hair but all his children have Auburn hair just like his brother Brynden so he passed his seat to more Tully looking Edmure.

Ending of the series =/= fates of every single character and land and house. We have characters and houses a plenty we've never seen or even told of.

So my theory works perfectly fine so far, not a single ruler to be seen not carrying his house's features and passing it off to his offspring who also don't carry the features of the said house.

Again, if you have even a single example of such a character/house and text to back it up, please share.

I don't agree with a number of things and especially not your interpretation of the description of Jon/Harry. Start a new thread and I'll elaborate. I won't continue it here.

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The wiki says Jon Arryn was blonde.

It does not. :) It says

As a younger man [Jon Arryn] resembled Harrold Hardyng, who has blue eyes, blonde hair, and an aquiline nose.

In what way Harrold resembles Jon Arryn is not specified in the reference, and so, the wiki does not either. It simply describes Harrold.

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