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lAPPYc

The lie of a love story

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4 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

When her mother was trying to betroth her to Jaime Lannister, she was a child, while Doran was an adult when he foud himself a wife, Oberyn got older without never finding a suitable match, and he ended up never marrying.

Elia was older than Jaime by 9-10 years and when they went on their grand marriage tour, she was something like 17, so she wasn't a child anymore. 

And even if she wanted to refuse Rhaegar (and I doubt she would have seeing how she fell instantly in love with Baelor Hightower because he was pretty), I think her situation was similar to Arianne's, where she's something like 22 and girls that age are already married in that society. She'd be well on her way to being an old maid.

As far as Oberyn goes, we don't know that he never found a suitable match. 

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 2:22 AM, lAPPYc said:

snip

Before we get into any of this, we have to examine this whole story from the beginning. Was it even Rhaegar who kidnapped Lyanna? Is it possible they were both taken by the three KG, either acting on their own or under orders from the MK?

 

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Before we get into any of this, we have to examine this whole story from the beginning. Was it even Rhaegar who kidnapped Lyanna? Is it possible they were both taken by the three KG, either acting on their own or under orders from the MK?

 

Someone had to have seen Rhaegar there to say that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Perhaps this plays into the theory that Littlefinger caused Robert’s Rebellion?...

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No witnesses are cited though, like throughout all five books, there's surprisingly no mention of anyone witnessing the kidnapping, I believe. And I believe Dany got the kidnapped at swordpoint thing from Viserys and his retelling of the whole situation. The implication we're given is that Rhaegars love for Lyanna was pretty much well known after the Tourney Of Harrenhal. I believe she was taken near Harrenhal but far enough away at the same time,it's specifically stated as "ten leagues from Harrenhal". I wonder what she may have been doing over there, and how did Rhaegar and his kingsguard come across her and know where she was? That's another question that may be answered in the next set of books. To me, the fact that they apparently came across each other near Harrenhal makes me personally think they were there together in the first place. Lyanna goes missing, she's bethrothed to Robert so maybe Rickard and Steffon & Brandon & Robert just figured that she wouldn't do something like just running off and away from that situation into another mans arms, especially a Targaryen prince.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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I know the burden seems to always fall on Littlefinger with the speculation that he saw something and lied to Brandon about it. It's something I've believed for a really long time, but I really have to wonder. Considering these plans that Varys has that very possible fakeness of Aegon, I've been thinking that we need to look to the Houses in the riverlands that were loyal to Blackfyre. Jaime I in Dance really had me questioning if he had anything to do with it at all. 

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18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Someone had to have seen Rhaegar there to say that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Perhaps this plays into the theory that Littlefinger caused Robert’s Rebellion?...

We don't know how the news got out. Why would Rhaegar commit such a heinous act and then leave witnesses to finger him as the culprit? Mayhaps this story was either spread by the KG, in order to cover their tracks, or perhaps by the MK himself. Aerys thought Rhaegar was trying to depose him, so what better way soil him in the eyes of the nobles and the smallfolk then to spread the idea that he is a kidnapper and a rapist?

Alternatively, Rhaegar may have indeed been the kidnapper, but not because of love. He was steeped in lore, so he may have hit upon the idea that the Song of Ice and Fire involved the union of Ice (Stark) blood (which they may have gotten from the Night's King) and Fire (Targaryen) blood, and that combing these bloodlines into a single person provides the perfect sacrifice with which to hatch a dragon's egg.

I think one thing is certain: we will definitely know what happened by the end of the series.

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The OP touches on something very important, something in the backstory is greatly misunderstood to throw the readers off.  To put it bluntly, something in the backstory is most likely a lie.  It’s the only way to reconcile Rhaegar’s reputation with his actions.  I think most of his actions were political, but he dabbled in prophecy.

@Curled Finger, you’re exactly right, and that’s the kind of trick Martin uses to let readers sidetrack themselves.  Nothing is ever stated about Elia (except for GRRM saying in an interview that her and Rhaegar’s relationship was complicated) and yet people assume that because they would be upset if their spouse ran off with someone else, that Elia must have been upset.  We don’t know.  I see a lot about “textual evidence” on the forum; but you’re not gonna solve these riddles with text alone, Martin simply holds back too much to solve beyond a shadow of doubt.  All we can do is take what little textual evidence there is, apply it to characters motivations and reputations that vary from one POV to the next, and work it against a very fuzzy timeline.

Edited by King Ned Stark

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1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

The OP touches on something very important, something in the backstory is greatly misunderstood to throw the readers off.  To put it bluntly, something in the backstory is most likely a lie.  It’s the only way to reconcile Rhaegar’s reputation with his actions.  I think most of his actions were political, but he dabbled in prophecy.

@Curled Finger, you’re exactly right, and that’s the kind of trick Martin uses to let readers sidetrack themselves.  Nothing is ever stated about Elia (except for GRRM saying in an interview that her and Rhaegar’s relationship was complicated) and yet people assume that because they would be upset if their spouse ran off with someone else, that Elia must have been upset.  We don’t know.  I see a lot about “textual evidence” on the forum; but you’re not gonna solve these riddles with text alone, Martin simply holds back too much to solve beyond a shadow of doubt.  All we can do is take what little textual evidence there is, apply it to characters motivations and reputations that vary from one POV to the next, and work it against a very fuzzy timeline.

It's absurd to place our own values on a medieval story.   Of course there are lots of people who kill their spouses, run around on them, marry for convenience and have open marriages in our time.  Regardless of affection the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia was still a job.  Produce heirs.  I appreciate your vote of confidence and open mindedness.    

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20 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

The OP touches on something very important, something in the backstory is greatly misunderstood to throw the readers off.  To put it bluntly, something in the backstory is most likely a lie.  It’s the only way to reconcile Rhaegar’s reputation with his actions.  I think most of his actions were political, but he dabbled in prophecy.

I agree!  I don't interpret his actions towards Lyanna at the tournament as romantic.  I think the gesture of awarding the Queen of Beauty's laurel is loaded.  Ned calls it the QoBL and not the Queen of Love and Beauty's laurel.  Lyanna does not receive full honors.  Further, he doesn't actually crown her which seems a kind of breach of etiquette.  He places it on her lap from end of his lance, a slightly hostile gesture. Perhaps a reminder that since Aegon the Conqueror, Starks do not wear crowns. 

The Starks themselves seem to represent a threat to Aerys because the first act leading up to the war is an attempt to eliminate House Stark.  Given the way the story develops, if the crown is vulnerable, the North might prefer their own king.

If Lyanna's wolf blood gets her into trouble; it's because she reminds Aerys that the Starks defend their bannermen while the KoLT tells everyone that Aerys' liege lords have no honor.  All under the aegis of the old gods, a unifying force in the North.  Is it any wonder Aerys was furious and Rhaegar waffled.

Apparently Kevan Lannister was at the tournament when he says that Rhaegar looked at Lyanna twice. For someone who dabbles in prophecy and who may have exchanged songs for dreams from the GoHH; that second look might be a look of recognition rather than love at first sight.

Placing the crown in her lap might also suggest that the crown is not for Lyanna specifically; but for the child she will hold in her lap.

Kevan also percieves it to be a contest of beauty when he says that Lyanna had a wild beauty but Cersei would have outshone her like the sun had she been there.  While Barristan thinks the only purpose for giving the crown to a woman is to express love.  He wasn't involved in any backroom discussions about removing Aerys.

The gesture seems full of animosity or warning and the Starks get the message when all the smiles died. 

Edited by LynnS

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On 12/18/2017 at 5:45 AM, Jamie Roberts said:

I don't believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar.  

 

Nor do I.  She's hardly sentimental. Rhaegar sings a song that makes the girls cry; Lyanna barely sniffles at it.  She's made of iron according to Ned.   I doubt very much that she carried around her crown of roses until she died. 

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On 12/20/2017 at 4:16 PM, John Suburbs said:

Alternatively, Rhaegar may have indeed been the kidnapper, but not because of love. He was steeped in lore, so he may have hit upon the idea that the Song of Ice and Fire involved the union of Ice (Stark) blood (which they may have gotten from the Night's King) and Fire (Targaryen) blood, and that combing these bloodlines into a single person provides the perfect sacrifice with which to hatch a dragon's egg

Agreed that he may know more about  the prophecy than we've been told since he changes his mind and names Aegon the PwiP.    Dany is the one who wakes dragons from stone and hatches the eggs.  She's the one who provides the child sacrifice to hatch dragon eggs, not Lyanna. Since Dany is successful, this has nothing to do with stark/targ blood union.  But she isn't necessarily the PwiP as Aemon thinks; she plays a part in the prophecy as the mother of dragons.  Her destiny is bound with fire; while Jon's is bound with ice; they won't produce any babies and neither will survive.

The song of ice and fire isn't complete until the end of the story.  If Aegon survives he will be the one to restore the realm to peace, prosperity and justice as the PwiP and he may well join houses with the only surviving Stark - Sansa.

I doubt very much that there was anyone inside the tower of joy.  More likely Aerys sent Rhaegar to preside over a pile of rocks when he took away his inheritance and gave Dragonstone to Viserys.

 

 

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I doubt very much that she carried around her crown of roses until she died. 

Especially, this.  I believe the rose she had in her hand wasn't from that.

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1 hour ago, Jamie Roberts said:

Especially, this.  I believe the rose she had in her hand wasn't from that.

Ned talks about the scent of blood and roses in the room and I'm reminded of this passage:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

That is the last thing I mean to do. The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

So I wonder if someone was in the room with Lyanna before Ned finds her; someone who smelled of roses.

Edited by LynnS

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

So I wonder if someone was in the room with Lyanna before Ned finds her; someone who smelled of roses.

She or he might have put the roses in the room.  I always get this gut feeling that Ned knew where Lyanna was for a long while.  Like I said, gut feeling.  :)

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On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, LynnS said:

Agreed that he may know more about  the prophecy than we've been told since he changes his mind and names Aegon the PwiP.    Dany is the one who wakes dragons from stone and hatches the eggs.  She's the one who provides the child sacrifice to hatch dragon eggs, not Lyanna. Since Dany is successful, this has nothing to do with stark/targ blood union.  But she isn't necessarily the PwiP as Aemon thinks; she plays a part in the prophecy as the mother of dragons.  Her destiny is bound with fire; while Jon's is bound with ice; they won't produce any babies and neither will survive.

The song of ice and fire isn't complete until the end of the story.  If Aegon survives he will be the one to restore the realm to peace, prosperity and justice as the PwiP and he may well join houses with the only surviving Stark - Sansa.

I doubt very much that there was anyone inside the tower of joy.  More likely Aerys sent Rhaegar to preside over a pile of rocks when he took away his inheritance and gave Dragonstone to Viserys.

 

 

Perhaps, but there are two possibilities here:

1) there is more than one way to hatch a dragon's egg, or

2 ) Rhaegar's attempt would have failed.

The song of I & F is not completely until the end of the story, so since the story is the song of I & F, that's like saying the story isn't complete until the end of the story. If RLJ is true, then the Song and Ice and Fire may already be in progress, about 17 years old and dying of stab wounds at Castle Black.

I like your catch on the smell of roses in the room. I believe Tyrion once noticed that Varys smelled of rosewater.

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9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Perhaps, but there are two possibilities here:

1) there is more than one way to hatch a dragon's egg, or

2 ) Rhaegar's attempt would have failed.

The song of I & F is not completely until the end of the story, so since the story is the song of I & F, that's like saying the story isn't complete until the end of the story. If RLJ is true, then the Song and Ice and Fire may already be in progress, about 17 years old and dying of stab wounds at Castle Black.

I like your catch on the smell of roses in the room. I believe Tyrion once noticed that Varys smelled of rosewater.

Oh! Thank you for that. 

I do think the black egg was Rhaegar's egg.  Whatever happened at Summerhall with dragon eggs, I can't help thinking that the black egg was bonded to Rhaegar as he was born and yet the Targaryens have lost the knowledge of hatching eggs.  There is an attempt to do so with pyromancers and wildfire which goes badly wrong.  What happened to the eggs?  It's curious that the black egg is the largest egg.  The colors red and black fit Rhaegar's motif.  As does the singing dragon of Dany's dream.  I also think it's true that you have to be a Targ to bond with a dragon egg and that it won't contain Drogo's soul.  It seems more likely to me that it contains Rhaegar's soul; the dragon that Dany actually wakens.  So Rhaegar is in a sense reborn as a dragon-god, something depicted by the Valyrian sphynx -- the body of a dragon and the head of a man or woman.  

The song of ice and fire doesn't belong to one or two characters.  All the characters in the book are playing a part in the song.  It won't be until the end of the story, that the histories can be told and the song written. This is why Rhaegar says that Aegon's song is the song of ice and fire. It isn't dependent on RLJ.  The underlying assumption that Jon must have targ/stark blood to fulfill the prophecy or ride a dragon or wield the dawn sword; therefore RLJ is necessary to that end; are not assumptions that stand up for me.  There is very little in the books that doesn't come from unreliable narrators to support it.  You have to take a lot on faith to make it work. If any one of these assumptions are untrue, the whole thing falls apart.  Trying to fit everything into that one narrative is reading the text with blinders.  I just don't think that Martin is writing a romantic tale where Rhaegar and Lyanna are concerned.

However dragon eggs are hatched, Dany has stumbled onto the means or was given the means.  She is the one who wakes the great dragon and then dragons from stone. Jon, Bran and Arya are something else entirely.         

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh! Thank you for that. 

I do think the black egg was Rhaegar's egg.  Whatever happened at Summerhall with dragon eggs, I can't help thinking that the black egg was bonded to Rhaegar as he was born and yet the Targaryens have lost the knowledge of hatching eggs.  There is an attempt to do so with pyromancers and wildfire which goes badly wrong.  What happened to the eggs?  It's curious that the black egg is the largest egg.  The colors red and black fit Rhaegar's motif.  As does the singing dragon of Dany's dream.  I also think it's true that you have to be a Targ to bond with a dragon egg and that it won't contain Drogo's soul.  It seems more likely to me that it contains Rhaegar's soul; the dragon that Dany actually wakens.  So Rhaegar is in a sense reborn as a dragon-god, something depicted by the Valyrian sphynx -- the body of a dragon and the head of a man or woman.  

The song of ice and fire doesn't belong to one or two characters.  All the characters in the book are playing a part in the song.  It won't be until the end of the story, that the histories can be told and the song written. This is why Rhaegar says that Aegon's song is the song of ice and fire. It isn't dependent on RLJ.  The underlying assumption that Jon must have targ/stark blood to fulfill the prophecy or ride a dragon or wield the dawn sword; therefore RLJ is necessary to that end; are not assumptions that stand up for me.  There is very little in the books that doesn't come from unreliable narrators to support it.  You have to take a lot on faith to make it work. If any one of these assumptions are untrue, the whole thing falls apart.  Trying to fit everything into that one narrative is reading the text with blinders.  I just don't think that Martin is writing a romantic tale where Rhaegar and Lyanna are concerned.

However dragon eggs are hatched, Dany has stumbled onto the means or was given the means.  She is the one who wakes the great dragon and then dragons from stone. Jon, Bran and Arya are something else entirely.         

Not bad. I differ on the dragons, though. If we go by the injunction "only death can pay for life," then Rhaegar's death was long gone by the time the dragons were hatched. I think it more likely that the deaths in and around the pyre are what paid for the dragon's lives: Drogo, Mirri, and Rhaego.

I can easily see Drogon with the spirit of Drogo: proud, commanding, ruthless, powerful.

Rhaegel is more reserved and does not seem too eager for Dany's company -- almost like she is somewhat suspicious. Mirri?

Viserion is very clingy, always climbing on Dany and screeching when she pushes him off -- like a child clinging to its mother. Rhaego?

If we suspect that Rhaegar's death 14 years ago brought Drogon to life, then how do we know it wasn't Aegon V's death, or Aegon I for that matter, or any targ in between? Rhaegar wore black and red, but those are House Targ colors; Aegon I wore black and red as well, as did Maegor, and Daemon Blackfyre.

I think the Song of Ice and Fire is related to blood magic, and if my suspicion about Other blood in the Stark line through the descendant of the Night's King is true, then the only character I can see that would have both Ice and Fire blood magic in their veins in JS. I can't speak yet to his ability to ride a dragon or wield a magic sword, but I also don't see any reason why the aSoIaF and the PtwP must be one and the same.

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30 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Not bad. I differ on the dragons, though. If we go by the injunction "only death can pay for life," then Rhaegar's death was long gone by the time the dragons were hatched. I think it more likely that the deaths in and around the pyre are what paid for the dragon's lives: Drogo, Mirri, and Rhaego.

I can easily see Drogon with the spirit of Drogo: proud, commanding, ruthless, powerful.

Rhaegel is more reserved and does not seem too eager for Dany's company -- almost like she is somewhat suspicious. Mirri?

Viserion is very clingy, always climbing on Dany and screeching when she pushes him off -- like a child clinging to its mother. Rhaego?

If we suspect that Rhaegar's death 14 years ago brought Drogon to life, then how do we know it wasn't Aegon V's death, or Aegon I for that matter, or any targ in between? Rhaegar wore black and red, but those are House Targ colors; Aegon I wore black and red as well, as did Maegor, and Daemon Blackfyre.

I think the Song of Ice and Fire is related to blood magic, and if my suspicion about Other blood in the Stark line through the descendant of the Night's King is true, then the only character I can see that would have both Ice and Fire blood magic in their veins in JS. I can't speak yet to his ability to ride a dragon or wield a magic sword, but I also don't see any reason why the aSoIaF and the PtwP must be one and the same.

I'm only saying that a dragon egg is a vessel of the soul.  In this case, it has to be wakened.
 

Quote

 Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Whose memory is this of riding to the Trident? Who has only just awakened?  What is this other part of her?  The other memory of the Trident was a nightmare?  Drogo's or Rhaegar's? 

The Damphair says that memories are the bones of the soul.  So whose memories of the Trident, whose soul are we talking about?  Rhaegar was not meant to triumph at the Trident; that's the nightmare.  His rebirth as the great dragon is how it is meant to be.

If Rhaegar has been reborn as the black dragon, is he not wearing black armor?

 

Edited by LynnS

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To add on to what's been said I have point out if Rheagar was intent on marrying Lyanna and she was truly consenting, even it caused an uproar if they had gotten married there's virtually nothing Rickard Stark could do about it, there's no such thing as divorce in Westeroes so even if Rickard disapproved of the relationship he'd have to bear it for honors sake. Hell you don't have to wait for Lyanna to have had a swelled belly I'm sure there saying so would destroy any chance of the marriage contract to Robert being fulfilled. 

Also I find it hard to accept Ellia would be cool with this. Jon bringing in another wife adds unneeded competition to her own children.

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