Is fAegon's education better than the other lords of westeros?

[divica]

Quote

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

So we know that diferent lords receive diferent education with targs learning valyrian for example.

So is aegon's education more complete than the education of the other great lords or is it simply diferent? For exemple do lords in westeros learn several languages? 

Varys seems to be traumatized because robert was only good at fighting, but we know noble children learn more than that...

[Leonardo]

Better than most of the lords of westeros based on him keeping pace with Tyrion, who holds a lofty place in the likely top 3 to 5 along with Rodrik the Reader for most educated nobles. He'd be giving people like Tywin a run for their money, and probably some maesters if he kept it up

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

With the possible exception of speaking with ambassadors and other important foreigners, speaking foreign languages would probably be seenas just a parlor trick by the lords of Westeros.  Off of the top of my head, I can not recall anyone, excluding the Targs,  who both has not left Westeros and has shown the ability to speak other non-Westeros languages.  While Tyrion insinuated that Joffery could not count to seven during the trip to Winterfell, I would assume that the ability to read, write and preform basic math would be common among most nobles.  Poetry might be something most lords are not taught.

[Lion of the West]

My view of it is this.

Most noble children would need to learn some basic stuff about most things if only to ensure their specialized servants can't run circles around them seven days a week, so that would be the goal to strive for. An excellent example would be Robert and Littlefinger. If Robert had gotten the basics of economy into the his head from a tutor and learnt responsibility from his parents then I think its very likely that he would have figured out that Littlefinger was up to shenanigans, even if the details of it might have eluded him. As such I think that the oppertunities are most often there for a the noble children, but that there's a culture against learning which manifests itself with a macho-martial ideal for men and beautiful-maid-to-faithful-mother ideal for women which makes many noble children disregard the great education that they could have had.

So I don't think that Aegon has had any outstanding education compared to say Lannister, Tully or Hightower youths. For example I would actually think that Robert's heirs had access to more qualified tutors than Aegon ever had but the difference is probably that, most importantly Joffrey, didn't care to properly take advantage of the oppertunities offered to him while Aegon seems to have soaked up all knowledge he came into contact with.

[Stormking902]

The Nobles of Westeros learn what pertains to them so history, geogrophy, math, English, war, things of that nature which the future Lord's can actually put to use. Learning other languages is a waste of time IMO as would nunerous other topics of study. 

[Buried Treasure]

8 hours ago, divica said:

So we know that diferent lords receive diferent education with targs learning valyrian for example.

So is aegon's education more complete than the education of the other great lords or is it simply diferent? For exemple do lords in westeros learn several languages? 

Varys seems to be traumatized because robert was only good at fighting, but we know noble children learn more than that...

I'd expect Aegon to know languages not through education but because he is exile, a serving boy with the Golden Company would probably be entirely uneducated but still able to speak several languages.

The rest of his education seems about in line with what I'd expect of the son of well off Landed Knight. He has a father figure to train him at arms and as he grows older, retainers to train against. He has one septa and one maester to educate him, which seems about right for any noble House not to small or impoverished.

Varys is trying to spin a narrative where Aegon has all that and a fairytale-like prince-raised-among-the-peasants-before-returning-to-right-a-wrong destiny. He may as well be plotting it direct from Joseph Campbell. Sure Aegon has played with peasant kids and skipped a meal, but I expect the same of many noble boys whilst they were in training as squires and taken on hunts (though certainly not all, and Tommen hasn't had that upbringing). Aegon was hidden but not hunted because nobody knew he existed, and he would never have known true hunger with rich Illyrio as his patron his whole life.

[divica]

5 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

My view of it is this.

Most noble children would need to learn some basic stuff about most things if only to ensure their specialized servants can't run circles around them seven days a week, so that would be the goal to strive for. An excellent example would be Robert and Littlefinger. If Robert had gotten the basics of economy into the his head from a tutor and learnt responsibility from his parents then I think its very likely that he would have figured out that Littlefinger was up to shenanigans, even if the details of it might have eluded him. As such I think that the oppertunities are most often there for a the noble children, but that there's a culture against learning which manifests itself with a macho-martial ideal for men and beautiful-maid-to-faithful-mother ideal for women which makes many noble children disregard the great education that they could have had.

So I don't think that Aegon has had any outstanding education compared to say Lannister, Tully or Hightower youths. For example I would actually think that Robert's heirs had access to more qualified tutors than Aegon ever had but the difference is probably that, most importantly Joffrey, didn't care to properly take advantage of the oppertunities offered to him while Aegon seems to have soaked up all knowledge he came into contact with.

However all those children learn how to rule and lead. We see for example that the moment jon becomes LC he knows how he should behave in a lot of situations because of his father. Did Aegon learn how a lord/king should behave towards his soldiers for example? How he deals with other lords? He doesn t have any experience of seeing how other people do it...

When I read that quote I get the idea that varys created the perfect person but maybe not the perfect ruler because as aemon said there have been good people that were bad kings and bad people that were good kings...

[divica]

15 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

I'd expect Aegon to know languages not through education but because he is exile, a serving boy with the Golden Company would probably be entirely uneducated but still able to speak several languages.

The rest of his education seems about in line with what I'd expect of the son of well off Landed Knight. He has a father figure to train him at arms and as he grows older, retainers to train against. He has one septa and one maester to educate him, which seems about right for any noble House not to small or impoverished.

Varys is trying to spin a narrative where Aegon has all that and a fairytale-like prince-raised-among-the-peasants-before-returning-to-right-a-wrong destiny. He may as well be plotting it direct from Joseph Campbell. Sure Aegon has played with peasant kids and skipped a meal, but I expect the same of many noble boys whilst they were in training as squires and taken on hunts (though certainly not all, and Tommen hasn't had that upbringing). Aegon was hidden but not hunted because nobody knew he existed, and he would never have known true hunger with rich Illyrio as his patron his whole life.

That is a good point. Because Aegon is rather prideful and has a possible mean side (him sending the game pieces to the floor and ordering tyrion to catch them because he felt insulted). It doesn t really seem that he is a humble person raised among poor people.

[Mainstroke]

57 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

I'd expect Aegon to know languages not through education but because he is exile, a serving boy with the Golden Company would probably be entirely uneducated but still able to speak several languages.

The rest of his education seems about in line with what I'd expect of the son of well off Landed Knight. He has a father figure to train him at arms and as he grows older, retainers to train against. He has one septa and one maester to educate him, which seems about right for any noble House not to small or impoverished.

Varys is trying to spin a narrative where Aegon has all that and a fairytale-like prince-raised-among-the-peasants-before-returning-to-right-a-wrong destiny. He may as well be plotting it direct from Joseph Campbell. Sure Aegon has played with peasant kids and skipped a meal, but I expect the same of many noble boys whilst they were in training as squires and taken on hunts (though certainly not all, and Tommen hasn't had that upbringing). Aegon was hidden but not hunted because nobody knew he existed, and he would never have known true hunger with rich Illyrio as his patron his whole life.

I also agree with this fully. In RPG language he may have a high intelligence, but low wisdom. 

He needs to witness and experience the ruling that other sons get. 

36 minutes ago, divica said:

That is a good point. Because Aegon is rather prideful and has a possible mean side (him sending the game pieces to the floor and ordering tyrion to catch them because he felt insulted). It doesn t really seem that he is a humble person raised among poor people.

Has Aegon known the whole time that he is the heir to the IT? Because if he only recently got the knowledge he is a prince he might feel empowered beyond reason. It is quite common for "ordinary" persons that suddenly gets elevated far above their station and what they're used to to just lose a grip of sensibility and act in a totally different way than before. New rich is a classic example. Win on bitcoin or whatever, a one-shot fortune and spend it all in one year on an extremely extravagant lifestyle. What could have lasted a lifetime if he continued with his previous lifestyle. 

The same could happen to Aegon if he really believed he was a commoner, and then suddenly gets told he is a prince. This is such a life changing event for him and he suddenly thinks he is above everyone and everything. It could explain his pride and mean streak, but was a totally reasonable and humble person during his grooming years. 

If so Varys and Illyrio may have made a VERY bad bet if the sudden status elevation changes him to the core.

Just a thought. 

[Lord Varys]

It seems like Aegon has gotten a better and broader education than the nobles and royals in Westeros usually get.

Tyrion is genuinely impressed by Haldon's work. Tyrion himself seems largely self-taught. He wanted to learn things and he reads as much as he does because he wanted to read. Jaime and Cersei received the same formal education as Tyrion yet they are a lot less educated than Tyrion.

There was also more time to train and educate Aegon. Princes at court live at court - they are surrounded by distractions and other things. Not to mention that they might be tasked with the formal duties of page of squire at very early age, followed by duties were they represent the king and royal family in an official capacity.

[Tygett Lannister]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems like Aegon has gotten a better and broader education than the nobles and royals in Westeros usually get.

Tyrion is genuinely impressed by Haldon's work. Tyrion himself seems largely self-taught. He wanted to learn things and he reads as much as he does because he wanted to read. Jaime and Cersei received the same formal education as Tyrion yet they are a lot less educated than Tyrion.

There was also more time to train and educate Aegon. Princes at court live at court - they are surrounded by distractions and other things. Not to mention that they might be tasked with the formal duties of page of squire at very early age, followed by duties were they represent the king and royal family in an official capacity.

His education was also supervised by Illyrio and Varys who know most about being a ruler. He received best possible education to be a ruler in history of Planetos probably. 

[The Commentator]

11 hours ago, divica said:

So we know that diferent lords receive diferent education with targs learning valyrian for example.

So is aegon's education more complete than the education of the other great lords or is it simply diferent? For exemple do lords in westeros learn several languages? 

Varys seems to be traumatized because robert was only good at fighting, but we know noble children learn more than that...

Education among the nobles of Westeros means instructed by the Maesters.  Not every noble can read or write.  It just depends.  There is great variability.  Certainly the king's court will have what passes for good education.  It is a rather narrow education and biased to the teachings of the Citadel.

fAegon's education is more varied.  He actually got some hands-on experience and he has seen a lot of the world.  Better in some ways than what someone in the court of King Joffrey would have gotten but shorted in some ways.  I still say there is nothing like hands-on experience to prepare someone for ruling.  Samwell is highly educated but his knowledge is not good preparation for conquering and ruling. 

If you can read and write, you're considered educated. 

[divica]

3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

His education was also supervised by Illyrio and Varys who know most about being a ruler. He received best possible education to be a ruler in history of Planetos probably. 

But illyrio and varys have never ruled anything. The mostly scheme... Can t the be blinded to certain things about ruling ?

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, divica said:

So we know that diferent lords receive diferent education with targs learning valyrian for example.

So is aegon's education more complete than the education of the other great lords or is it simply diferent? For exemple do lords in westeros learn several languages? 

Varys seems to be traumatized because robert was only good at fighting, but we know noble children learn more than that...

The point is not so much that he is well read or has traveled, but he has been raised with the idea that being a King is a duty, a duty to the people he rules and protects. All of his education is done to reinforce that notion. History, the faith, valor, bravery and respect are paramount. 

[Castellan]

From what we see of him and the whole set up, he has in fact been told kingship is his right even if dressed up as duty. His lives with an entourage devoting their lives to him. He seems to accept his right to kingship without question. He simply isn't as completely lacking in any sense of self and ability to interact with others as Joffrey. Anyone would look wonderful compared to Joffrey.

It is complete rubbish for Varys to say he has 'lived with fishermen and mended nets'. Everyone he lives with is there to support him. He has never been just one of a group of equally common people with work to do and no special rights. 

His education seems to be along the lines of lord's sons who have a maester the way the girls have a septa, but probably more sustained. But Lord's sons in Westeros must absorb a lot more about actually running their lands and how to relate to the houses sworn to them and so on, as Bran is doing at the Harvest Feast. They must have had to learn High Valyrian once, but that's gone by the board. It is interesting how some branches of the Frey's for instance have married people from Essos and have dealings with them. There doesn't seem much of that.

 

[Jon Fossoway]

If Tyrion is surprised by his education and gave him the Tyrion approved seal, then I will not doubt he is actually the ultimate westerosi lord/king/leader/superman.

[the Scorpion Knight]

6 hours ago, divica said:

That is a good point. Because Aegon is rather prideful and has a possible mean side (him sending the game pieces to the floor and ordering tyrion to catch them because he felt insulted). It doesn t really seem that he is a humble person raised among poor people.

considering other nobles of his age he makes actually a humbler impression to not to mention A) tyrion was a thankless dick to aegon andb) aegon did something

4 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

His education was also supervised by Illyrio and Varys who know most about being a ruler. He received best possible education to be a ruler in history of Planetos probably. 

totally agree

58 minutes ago, divica said:

But illyrio and varys have never ruled anything. The mostly scheme... Can t the be blinded to certain things about ruling ?

wrong illyrio is as  a magister part of the goverment of pentos

[divica]

53 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

If Tyrion is surprised by his education and gave him the Tyrion approved seal, then I will not doubt he is actually the ultimate westerosi lord/king/leader/superman.

Tyrion was impressed by his knowledge. It doesn t exactly mean that all that knowledge is useful in ruling the kingdoms. After all it would mean that to be a good lord the kids should become maesters.

[Darion Storm]

It would be above average at least.

Some lords like the Greatjon and King Robert were more interested in fighting and fucking than studying.

Some lords like Rodrik the Reader and Doran Martell are particularly clever.

He seems to be closer to the latter from what we’ve seen, holding his own against Tyrion, another smarty-pants.

But of course he’s still young, and we don’t know how much influence Varys and Illyrio had on his education. Illyrio claims they raised him to be the perfect king but their definition could differ wildly from some others.

[Castellan]

2 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

If Tyrion is surprised by his education and gave him the Tyrion approved seal, then I will not doubt he is actually the ultimate westerosi lord/king/leader/superman.

I don't remember a Tyrion approved seal. And I don't remember him thinking Aegon/fAegon was outstanding in himself, just that pains were being taken with his education. I remember Aegon being good at this and not so good at that subject - neither outstanding or dumb. He is clearly also an adolescent male who wants to get on with the derring-do of winning his kingdom. Whether that works for or against remains to be seen. Hopefully the education does make him a bit better at decision making.