Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Three princes, three treasons.  Daughter of death, slayer of lies.

Or are they all princes who were promised?  Viserys was promised a crown, Rhaego was the promised stallion who mounts the world (Drogo promised to win the throne) and the last one? 

[Megorova]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

that idea comes exclusively from this vision, in which Dany didn't identify the prince as Rhaegar.  

Maybe because his helm's visor was closed? So she didn't actually saw his face.

In her dream (after she gave birth to Rhaego) she saw Rhaegar on horse, and when she lifted his helm's visor, she saw there her own face. Which means that maybe in the other scene, in the vision from THOU, Rhaegar's face was also covered by visor.

And the Undying said to Dany three sets of prophecyes each with a set of three visions.

Daughter of death: Viserys and his "crown", dying prince with rubies, and a vision of a lord, under banner with a fiery stallion, who has the same looks as the man in Dany's dream, that she identified as her son. (Slayer of lies, and Bride of fire.)

So in Daughter of death trinity of visions, there are Viserys, a man who has same copper skin and silver-gold hair color as Rhaego, and this third prince.

Two Targaryens - Viserys Targaryen and Rhaego Targaryen-Drogo, so why would there be as third prince, Littlefinger?

[JNR]

7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Are you saying that this vision is Petyr and not Rhaegar?

No... somehow I still think it's Rhaegar, even though there are some serious problems. 

For me, the biggest one is probably how Rhaegar could have (per Ned) been sitting on a horse and had his chest crushed in by that massive warhammer... but then (per Dany's vision) could have wound up off the horse, and on his feet, still alive and conscious, so that it was possible for him to kneel and say a woman's name.  It seems a miracle of biology, or gymnastics, or gymnastic biology.

On the other hand, re Littlefinger, I still can't quite believe that if Dany saw a replay of the Brandon/Littlefinger duel, and Brandon's sword sliced through Littlefinger's middle and sprayed blood, that she would think that blood was rubies.  Who sees that happen and thinks rubies?   

And, of course, there was no apparent reason Dany should, looking at Petyr, have thought he was a prince, yet she clearly did think Vision Boy was a prince.

6 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

both challengers, as the underdog, believed he had found a way to cheat, and best his larger/stronger opponent through trickery

I honestly have no idea what was in Littlefinger's head, unless it was an emo teen sense that if Cat married Brandon life wasn't worth living... so he might as well try to beat Brandon.

In Rhaegar's case, it seems much more plausible to me that he might have won.  Robert was huge and immensely strong and this warhammer was apparently so massive it was beyond being blocked... but strength and mass aren't everything in a fight.   

We have Jaime on this exact topic:

Quote

Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all.

And of course this is what we see re the Mountain and Red Viper, too.  Speed and skill wins.  

This Rhaegar/Robert duel, however, wound up on horseback, as the destriers circled each other.  And that minimized Rhaegar's primary advantages; however quick you are, the horse you're sitting on is a limiting factor to your lateral movements and can be a real problem to solve if you're not careful.  It seems Rhaegar ran out of time before he solved that problem.

6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

However, there is another battle at the Trident that is supposed to happen...

Yes, any time you have 2500+ pages of story to go, there's no way of knowing how visions are going to play out!  

So it could be what Dany saw has simply not yet come to pass.  But that's a depressing thought in a way, because it seems less clear than ever that these books will be finished.

[Ygrain]

On 17. 1. 2018 at 9:48 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

 The last and only wound whose location is given to us, the wound Catelyn thought mortal, was below Petyr's ribs, not chest.

Thanks for sparing me the time searching.

If the two scenes are indeed meant as parallel, then they work the same way as the parallel of Jorah's sweeping victory and Rhaegar's. Just like Petyr, Rhaegar uttered the named of the woman he loved (hence, not 'Elia'), and he won because he wanted to crown the woman he was smitten by.

On 18. 1. 2018 at 0:36 AM, Widow's Watch said:

 

  Hide contents

Elia Sand is being put in his vicinity for that purpose. A girl who is 15 and jousts. At the very least, we might get something about Harrenhal.

 

Agreed, someone is going to be reminded very much.

[Ygrain]

As for the discrepancy between the mounted combat and the vision: it has been proposed that Rhaegar's blow that injured Robert also knocked him down, and that Rhaegar dismounted, as well, because it was the chivalrous thing to do, and it got him killed, just like Daemon Blackfyre.

ETA: As Barristan notes during Belwas' duel with the champion of Meereen, a chivalrous man would dismount.

 

 

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, JNR said:

No... somehow I still think it's Rhaegar, even though there are some serious problems.

The similarities are striking, but so are the differences.  We are meant to think it is Rhaegar, but Dany doesn't confirm it, in spite of seeing Rhaegar in the same set of visions.  He is someone that Dany doesn't know and the woman's name is also someone she doesn't know. I still think it is Aegon who is either Rhaegar's son or impersonating his son.  A prince might stand out by his armor and Illyrio has provided armor and court clothing and other such finery.

The vision that follows includes the cloth dragon:

Quote

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

"But," Prince Aegon said, "without Daenerys and her dragons, how could we hope to win?"

"You do not need to win," Tyrion told him. "All you need to do is raise your banners, rally your supporters, and hold, until Daenerys arrives to join her strength to yours."

"You said she might not have me."

Martin's puzzles are carefully crafted:

Quote

From the fourth book you have been uncovering some chapters with nicknames, like ‘The Prophet’ or ‘The Kraken’s Daughter’. Why do you do that?

Well… [Thinks for a long time with an enigmatic smile] I don’t know if you know Gene Wolfe, one of the best science fiction and fantasy writers, in my opinion. Well, his work is full of puzzles and enigmas and you have to put a lot of attention on what he is saying. I remember one day I asked him: “Why do you use that? Is there a deeper reason beyond?” And he didn’t say anything at the beginning. He just smiled me ironically and said to me: “What do you think it means?” And I told him my theories. Then, he answered: “Interesting…” [Laughs]. That’s all you wanna get out of me, but I have to say this is not an accident [Laughs].

 

[LynnS]

On 1/16/2018 at 6:16 PM, Megorova said:

3.2. dead man on a ship (someone connected to Jon and Dany);

• third vision is from the past:

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

I think it more likely that the 'dead man' is Aeron Greyjoy, a drowned man and this is a vision of the future:

Spoiler

 

“The Crow’s Eye has fed your Drowned God well, and he has grown fat with sacrifice. Words are wind, but blood is power. We have given thousands to the sea, and he has given us victories!”

“…Your Grace,” said Torwold Browntooth. “I have the priests. What do you want done with them?”

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

 

@ravenous readerWhat is the meaning of a darkling stream?

Quote

... Unless we boldly stand, When men would hold us back, With the helm-board in our hand, And our eyes to the shining track Of what may be Beyond the sea. There are rocks out there in that wide, wide sea, 'Neath many a darkling stream, And souls that once sailed out bold and free Have been carried away in a dream; ...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=FoEgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA623&lpg=PA623&dq=a+darkling+stream&source=bl&ots=tc3qE7ffuN&sig=04TwcgIThfsMjemfZ1Q9ekDt6Is&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio1NLGmeTYAhUD-6wKHe6SDmQQ6AEIRzAI#v=onepage&q=a darkling stream&f=false

 

 

[PrettyPig]

While the parallels in these two duels also share a romantic thematic element with Jorah's joust for Lynesse (love of a woman), there's another darker undercurrent that is just as important:  unrequited love.    Catelyn didn't love Petyr, at least not in the way he wanted her to.   Lynesse briefly cared for Jorah - although it seems as though her "love" was directly tied to his ability to provide material goods for her, which isn't love at all - but decided in the end it was better to spend life as a concubine in Essos than stay with the husband so obsessed with her that he would resort to crime to keep her.    What does this say about Rhaegar and Lyanna?      Also interesting to look at the fates of the men:  Jorah went on to engage in activities that caused his personal and financial ruin; Petyr went on to engage in activities that caused his personal and financial gain; Rhaegar went on to...go to war and die?   Nah, there's something else.    We don't have that piece of the puzzle yet, but I'm willing to bet there was another arc to this that we'll get soon enough.

The unrequited love angle can also be applied to Loras' gifting of the rose to Sansa at the Hand's tourney...clearly that was just a token gesture since Loras had eyes only for Renly.  In this case we have an inverse parallel to the BS/PB/CT & RT/RB/LS triangles - this time, the jouster is the one who isn't romantically interested in the maiden...but the connection to REALLY explore (IMO) is the cheating in the joust at the end. 

(Also, the fact that Loras IS gay can also tie back to the OP and now we've come full circle.  lol       I think homosexuality is also one of the core thematic elements of these events, along with maids, Starks, roses, the color blue, tourneys/jousts, death/ruin, and of course unrequited love.  The trick is putting all these elements together.

[JNR]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I still think it is Aegon who is either Rhaegar's son or impersonating his son.  A prince might stand out by his armor and Illyrio has provided armor and court clothing and other such finery.

Ah, well, there you don't have to persuade me because I made the same case back in May, in Heresy.  

Quote

...if it's a vision of the future (which we can't know), and if Aegon is legit, then Aegon is a member of Dany's family: her brother Rhaegar's son. 

And he would be a real prince, and the rubies would also be real, if GRRM decided he were going to get Rhaegarish armor to promote his claim as Rhaegar's son.

So that would be a complete fit, and better than either Rhaegar (whom Dany did not even recognize from the vision, despite all of Viserys's tales, and who has various other problems) or Littlefinger (not a prince, not dying, not rubies).

So yeah, it's a good logical fit.  

The problem I have with this is solely that it's purely speculative -- I don't know that Aegon will say to himself "You know what, people might be more likely to think I'm Rhaegar's son if I'm wearing black armor with rubies on the breastplate." And I don't know he'll die, I don't know he'll kneel and murmur a name, etc.

I suppose one could make the case, though, that the above is more probable than the idea that Rhaegar took a giant spike in the heart... and somehow was then still alive and conscious and thus able to fall to his knees (but not on his horse, where he got hit) and murmur anybody's name.

If Robert had it right about this:

Quote

I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart

...well, that's quite a problem for people to ignore.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

On 17.01.2018 at 1:16 AM, Megorova said:

3.2. dead man on a ship (someone connected to Jon and Dany);

• third vision is from the past:

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

I think it more likely that the 'dead man' is Aeron Greyjoy, a drowned man and this is a vision of the future:

I wrote that third vision is from the past. And the vision with a man on a ship is second, it's number is 3.2. <- second vision in third set of visions.

In each set of visions, there are three of them - first is from recent past, second is a vision of a future, and third is a vision from a more distant past (specifically from times of Robert's Rebellion and what was after - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth in Tower of Joy, and Jon's arrival to Winterfell.)

Each set of visions has a title given by Undying -

Daughter of death (Viserys, Rhaego, Rhaegar),

Slayer of lies (Stannis, Mummers dragon (fAegon), birth of Jon Snow),

Bride of fire (Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship, Jon in Winterfell). 

In chronological order those three visions in their set should be -

Daughter of death (Rhaegar, Viserys, Rhaego),

Slayer of lies (birth of Jon Snow (who is actually not a Snow, not a bastard of Ned Stark), Stannis and his fake sword, Mummers dragon),

Bride of fire (Jon in Winterfell, Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship).

 

All three people or three events in their set are connected to each other thru title given to that set - in first set three Targaryens, in second three fake things; what connection under title "Bride of fire" could be between Dany, Jon, and that man on a ship?

I can see a connection between Jon and Dany, and Bride of fire, if the two of them will get married, of if both of them are two out of three heads of the dragon, but how in that set fits Aeron Greyjoy? Does he have any connection to fire, or dragons, or prophecies?

[PrettyPig]

18 minutes ago, JNR said:

So that would be a complete fit, and better than either Rhaegar (whom Dany did not even recognize from the vision, despite all of Viserys's tales, and who has various other problems) or Littlefinger (not a prince, not dying, not rubies).

If it does indeed turn out to be Aegon VI, it’s of note that the woman’s name he murmurs can’t then be “Daenerys”, given that Dany would most certainly recognize her own name, trippy vision or no. 

That would imply that Aegon develops the hots for some other gal in the story that isn’t his cousin the dragon queen.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

So this thread is now completely off topic, right?

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

The similarities are striking, but so are the differences.  We are meant to think it is Rhaegar, but Dany doesn't confirm it

1. Based on two other sets, and all other things that Dany saw and heard in THOU, all of it was connected to her. And Littlefinger's past and his relationship with Cat, has zero connection with Dany. So that wasn't a vision with LF.

2. Also it's unlikely that that was a vision of Aegon or some other "prince". Because based on two other sets, the third vision in a set is from the past, from times of Robert's rebellion. So most likely this set follows the same pattern, and third vision is the past, not the future.

3. And the most important detail, from Ice and Fire book, app version:

On 17.01.2018 at 3:59 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

From Rhaegar Targaryen entry:

"At Harrenhal, he first beheld Lyanna Stark. He brought tears to her eyes with his singing, before crowning her his queen of love and beauty before his wife and half the realm. Sometime later, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. When word of Lyanna's abduction reached Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell stormed into the Red Keep, challenging Rhaegar to face him; Aerys's murderous response led directly to Robert's Rebellion.

Lord Robert, Robert's betrothed, was consumed by the need to avenge himself on Rhaegar, but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at the place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

Giving Ser Jaime the task of protecting of his wife and children, Prince Rhaegar swore that, after the war was over, he would see that changes were made - alluding to his father's burgeoning madness, which made Aerys distrust even his own son. Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle. Dueling on horseback in the fording of the river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips."

@AlaskanSandman World book confirms that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name.

18 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

So this thread is now completely off topic, right?

No, it's not completely off topic. Rhaegar's final word was Lyanna's name. We know it from Dany's vision in THOU. The question was whether those visions are real, and whether the dying prince in her vision was indeed Rhaegar.

From the World book now we have confirmation. So let's continue - whether Rhaegar was gay or not.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Ah, well, there you don't have to persuade me because I made the same case back in May, in Heresy.  

So yeah, it's a good logical fit.  

The problem I have with this is solely that it's purely speculative -- I don't know that Aegon will say to himself "You know what, people might be more likely to think I'm Rhaegar's son if I'm wearing black armor with rubies on the breastplate." And I don't know he'll die, I don't know he'll kneel and murmur a name, etc.

I suppose one could make the case, though, that the above is more probable than the idea that Rhaegar took a giant spike in the heart... and somehow was then still alive and conscious and thus able to fall to his knees (but not on his horse, where he got hit) and murmur anybody's name.

 

I wouldn't doubt that you came up with the same logic some time ago.  I forget what I had for breakfast, or... if I had breakfast.  We're not really talking about rubies either; but blood like rubies.

I went to my copy of the World Book and it never says Rhaegar got off his horse.  The confrontation is pretty much as you describe it. 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for the discrepancy between the mounted combat and the vision: it has been proposed that Rhaegar's blow that injured Robert also knocked him down, and that Rhaegar dismounted, as well, because it was the chivalrous thing to do, and it got him killed, just like Daemon Blackfyre.

ETA: As Barristan notes during Belwas' duel with the champion of Meereen, a chivalrous man would dismount.

I wish people would have this kind of insight into the novels instead of the blind theory chucking we have now 

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, Megorova said:

All three people or three events in their set are connected to each other thru title given to that set - in first set three Targaryens, in second three fake things; what connection under title "Bride of fire" could be between Dany, Jon, and that man on a ship?

I can see a connection between Jon and Dany, and Bride of fire, if the two of them will get married, of if both of them are two out of three heads of the dragon, but how in that set fits Aeron Greyjoy? Does he have any connection to fire, or dragons, or prophecies?

If you haven't read the Foresaken Chapter from WoW; it's a bit of a spoiler:

Spoiler

Euron is going to make great sacrifice of holy blood in an attempt to be re-born I suspect as a god or someone with god-like powers.

So I'm guessing that Dany's reference to the darkling stream in the first part is a metaphor for the river of time and prophecy.  Euron and Jon are about to be remade in some fashion.  Dany, I think has already been remade as the bride of fire through the tent ritual and the funeral pyre.

So are we talking about the forging of three swords; once in water, once in the heart of a lion and last the bride of fire, Nissa, Nissa. 

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

1. Based on two other sets, and all other things that Dany saw and heard in THOU, all of it was connected to her. And Littlefinger's past and his relationship with Cat, has zero connection with Dany. So that wasn't a vision with LF.

2. Also it's unlikely that that was a vision of Aegon or some other "prince". Because based on two other sets, the third vision in a set is from the past, from times of Robert's rebellion. So most likely this set follows the same pattern, and third vision is the past, not the future.

I don't think it's unlikely at all.  Aegon is a part of the story and she will have to make some choices about him at some point.

The world book is semi-canon.  Maester Yandel might be full of it or partly full of it.   That implies that someone knows something that hasn't been revealed by Martin yet.  I don't think that's likely.

I can see that you are very much involved with the puzzle of the visions and prophecies.  I've spend a lot of time thinking about it myself.  I wouldn't count on finding a pattern.  You might think something is from the past, only to find out, it hasn't happened yet. 

[PrettyPig]

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I wish people would have this kind of insight into the novels instead of the blind theory chucking we have now 

Oddly, I kind of prefer the blind theory chucking over the sullen yet determined seagulling that also surfaces in every thread...

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

So this thread is now completely off topic, right?

I guess so.  I don't really have anything to say about Rhaegar being gay.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for the discrepancy between the mounted combat and the vision: it has been proposed that Rhaegar's blow that injured Robert also knocked him down, and that Rhaegar dismounted, as well, because it was the chivalrous thing to do, and it got him killed, just like Daemon Blackfyre.

ETA: As Barristan notes during Belwas' duel with the champion of Meereen, a chivalrous man would dismount.

I agree with this. This is actually a reason I've been wondering about the notion of kinslaying.