Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I suppose one could make the case, though, that the above is more probable than the idea that Rhaegar took a giant spike in the heart... and somehow was then still alive and conscious and thus able to fall to his knees (but not on his horse, where he got hit) and murmur anybody's name.

If Robert had it right about this:

Quote

I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart

...well, that's quite a problem for people to ignore.

First, why wouldn't you quote the entire, not that long, sentence? Which is:

I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

Not, mind you, "where he stood", but "at my feet" - apparently Rhaegar was not killed instantly.

Second, I'm not sure we're supposed to be all logical and analytical with that line. I think that in Bob's account of what had happened to Rhaegar's "black heart" there might be some metaphors and/or other figures of speech.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I guess so.  I don't really have anything to say about Rhaegar being gay.

Haha. There is probably a reason for this. 

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Oddly, I kind of prefer the blind theory chucking over the sullen yet determined seagulling that also surfaces in every thread...

Well, when you are desperate to shut down any contrary opinions and make absolutely everything fit into your fantasy of Rhaegar; it really isn't going too far to propose that he got off his goddam horse in the middle of battle -- as a courtesy.  And because someone thought it up; it's a fact.

Edit:  Did you see the interview with GRRM where he discusses the artwork in the WoIaF? Specifically, the battle between Rhaegar and Robert on horseback.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Haha. There is probably a reason for this. 

Not really.  If his relationship with Elia is complicated; it might as well be as complicated as Renly, Loras and Margaery.  I don't think it's really that important.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

13 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

First, why wouldn't you quote the entire, not that long, sentence? Which is:

I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

Not, mind you, "where he stood", but "at my feet" - apparently Rhaegar was not killed instantly.

Second, I'm not sure we're supposed to be all logical and analytical with that line. I think that in Bob's account of what had happened to Rhaegar's "black heart" there might be some metaphors and/or other figures of speech.

Obviously that just means that Robert's horse was so gigantic that Rhaegar dead but still on horseback only came up to Robert's dangling feet.

[Bael's Bastard]

It would be one thing if people were actually discussing things that are stated, implied, or can be shown to be in any way hinted at in the books, but threads like these essentially just take the names of characters from the books and come up with their own stories that have absolutely nothing to do with the characters or books. Hence, why threads like this are just poor crackpots and fan fiction in the vein of Fifty Shades of Grey.

[Ygrain]

26 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I agree with this. This is actually a reason I've been wondering about the notion of kinslaying. 

Can you elaborate?

24 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

Which makes one wonder if Robert dismounted only after he delivered that fatal blow, or if this is a continuation of the proposed theory that the final stage of the duel was fought on foot.

[PrettyPig]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not really.  If his relationship with Elia is complicated; it might as well be as complicated as Renly, Loras and Margaery.  I don't think it's really that important.

This.  While I think there’s a good chance that this type of triangle has existed before, possibly several times, I get the impression that Rhaegar’s sexual preference was mostly secondary to the rest of whatever was going on politically or magically.   

While this may ply into his relationships and alliances to some degree just like it did with Renly, Rhaegar was still the heir to the throne and would climb aboard and think of England—and did, twice, if you are of the belief that Rhaenys and Aegon were in fact his bio children.   His being gay or bi seems incidental unless we’re talking succession.  

[wolfmaid7]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:46 PM, Megorova said:

What womEn? Mirri is the only one who said anything about the baby.

Did any of her maids said anything about Dany's baby? -> No.

Did any of them saw the baby? -> No.

Did Jorah saw the baby? -> No.

No one was around. Jorah brought Dany inside, and after that left the two of them (and Drogo) in that tent. Other Dothraki, even her bloodriders, were too scared to go inside. None of her handmaids went inside, while Mirri was there performing her ritual. They went there only after everything was already over - next morning, after Mirri already gave the child to someone, who took it away, ALIVE.

Mirri is not just an eye witness, she's also a liar. And what exactly did she said is hinting that those are lies:

1. I drew him forth myself.

2. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption.

Don't you see absurdity of what she said? -> when she touched the baby, he supposedly disintegrated. If he disintegrated from her touch, then how did she drew him forth? Without touching him? With power of her mind? Is she a Jedy or something?

Did you ever saw how the baby is born? How the midwife/nurse/obstetrician pulls the baby out of the vagina, when the head comes out? To drew the baby forth, she had to touch him many times. So why didn't it disintegrated from the very first touch? But she claims that after she pulled him out, she had enough time to notice such specific details about his appearance, such as his scaled skin, his tail, his wings, and even his BLIND EYES. How did she knew that his eyes were blind, if the baby disintegrated when she touched him?

Just imagine mechanics of what she did. When she was pulling the baby out, was it face up, or face down? How did she saw BOTH - his blind eyes, and his stub tail? For exampe if the baby was face up, and he disintegrated when she touched him, then how did she saw his tail? To see his tail, she had to take him in hands, and turn him around, and to do that she had to touch him, but according to her words, the baby melted/disintegrated ("the flesh sloughed off the bone") from her touch. So how did she saw his tail? And if he was face down, when he was born, and she drew him out, and when she toucned him, he disintegrated, then how did she noticed his blind eyes? Absurd, absurd, absurd.

Also where are the bones? According to what Mirri said, the flesh sloughed off, but what happened with the baby's skeleton? Why wasn't it given to Dany, to be burned on Drogo's funeral pyre, alongside his father? Because the baby is alive, and it was taken away. And the lie about his horrible birth was concocted to explain why there's no any remnants left.

Also this -> "He had been dead for years." Are readers not aware that pregnancy lasts only 9 months? So WHAT years? Also Dany felt the baby move, not long prior all that situation with Drogo. So it was alive inside her, not dead for years.

Absurdity of what she said, is the clue to readers that those are LIES.

Also who do you think is stronger - Mirri, Undying, or dragons?

Undying are obviously much much stronger than Mirri and her sheep magic. But one dragon easily got thru all magic and illusions of Undying, and killed them and their Heart. And Rhaego, same as his mother, bonded with his dragon, while the Rhaegel was still in his egg. After Dany bonded with Drogo, after she saw him in her dream, and took black egg in her bed to sleep together, from then on, each day she became stronger and stronger. So Rhaego wasn't affected by Mirri's magic, even though Dany was carried inside of that tent, in the middle of dark magic ritual. The bond formed between Rhaegel and Rhaego, protected him from being harmed by black magic.

 

Eventually we will see, whether my theory is correct.

And it can happen even sooner than will be published last book of the ASOIAF series, or some side story or sequel about Rhaego. Because it's possible that Dany's child was taken away by those Dothraki, that left Drogo's khalasar next morning after that ritual. If that is so, then Dany will be reunited with him, shortly after beginning of TWOW. Because if some Dothraki did took away the Stallion that will mount the world, then most likely they brought him to Vaes Dothrak, to be raised by dosh khaleen. And where will those Dothraki, from Dany's last chapter in ADWD will take her? -> To Vaes Dothrak. Because she is khal's widow, and should stay for the rest of her life with dosh khaleen. And there will be their reunion. And Dany with Drogon will Dracarys those people for kidnapping their baby.

No she wasn't.Jorah was begining to repeat what he heard the women in the camp say.

I've baked many of chicken whose flesh fell off the bone,i was still holding them.They were just very soft.

Life paid for life and Rhaego's life paid for one of her dragons.The first thing when Dany came to did she call for her child? No,she called for her eggs.

That was the secret to hatching dragons,that is the riddle of the Sphinx.

Yes i have seen how a baby is born.I've assisted in the delivery of a few.I can't say i've delivered any that were affected by ancient dark ritual blood sacrifice.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 8:23 PM, kissdbyfire said:

"Nuh uh?"

And no, I'm not. I'm saying we know Dayne and Rhaegar were BFF, and that while JonCon was close to Rhaegar, he was not as close as he wished he were. And it's quite obvious why JonCon is irked about Elia. He was jealous, he was in love w/ Rhaegar. That doesn't in any way, shape or form mean Rhaegar ever confided in JonCon nor that Rhaegar was as close to JonCon as he was to Dayne. In fact, all the clues we get point in the opposite direction. 

I'm saying that only those (few) who were as close to Rhaegar as Dayne was would know anything about Lyanna, and JonCon was not one of them. Whoever those very close to Rhaegar were, they're either not around anymore or haven't presented themselves yet. 

Yeah, my apologies. I just saw on your sig that you support Robert + Lyanna = Jon. I suppose that explains why we will never see eye to eye on this. 

Yeah you are and you are still doing it.You are still using Dayne as a qualifier for what other people may have known.For instance, i could be your best friend, and while in a bar heard your husband talking about some other woman he banged. I need be a friend far less a close friend to have known that.

Yes it is obvious why JonCon is irked about Elia and not Lyanna.You are not proposing he was jealous of Elia because he wanted to marry Rhaegar? Think it through,why else would JonCon be jealous about Elia and not Lyanna the woman he suposedly ran off and gave everything up for.

You are wrong again in assuming this has anything to do with who i believe to Jon's parents. We won't see eye to eye because the idea that something that everyone knows in the story has no one that actually knows anything is unbelievable.

 

On 1/17/2018 at 8:25 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Except for a member of the Kingsguard, who literally watched Rhaegar grow up. 

but that would be giving away the mystery.  

You mean Selmy? Selmy doesn't know how Rhaegar felt about Lyanna.He knows as much as everyone else does (which isn't anything) and made a statement based off what Rhaegar supposedly did.

If a man gave a woman flowers and it is said that said man ran off with the woman,what might anyone conclude? Its obvious that in a society and culture like this the thought would be he must have done it because he was love struck.

No one questioned if he actually did it,and if he did do it affections had anything to do with it.

No, it wouldn't be giving anything away. Every unsubstantiated rumour about Rhaegar and Lyanna has led to the majority of the fandom thinking one thing and it wasn't hard for that conclusion to be drawn.

Guy gives girl flower,guy is said to have run of with girl,both of them die and girl's brother comes home with baby he says is his.That is a bonified red herring.a surface reading alone would lead anyone to that conclusion.If it was Disney and not GRRM i would buy it.

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

I like this interpretation also.  What is the significance of this event to Dany?  Why is she shown this vision and why does she call him a prince?  The other possibility that comes to mind is that this is a morrow not yet made and the prince is the PtwP, Aegon.

The previous two visions are princes themselves; Viserys and we can assume Rheago and they both died.   These visions seems to be grouped together.

 

Been saying this for months now.The vision while it has its meaning for Dany is yet another way that GRRM uses perception as a literary device when it comes to his readers. Often than non we take the bait. We see a glimpse of something that looks similar and think it that same think, but he does put elements to let us know that we are dupping ourselves.

In this case,the fact that Dany makes no connection to dying prince and harp dude.It is harp dude she says is Rhaegar.Now Dany also knows how Rhaegar died and this alone would have sparked recognition but it didn't.

19 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Oh my.   This is quite brilliant.  

Three princes - one past (Rhaegar), one present (Viserys) , one future (Rhaego).

. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

Once for blood = Rhaegar, in a huge hint that the Lyanna ordeal may have indeed been about blood magic and sacrifice.

once for gold = Viserys, who sold his own sister out of desire for a golden crown.  

Once for love = Rhaego.  This could be referencing Dany’s unintentional sacrifice to bring back Drogo, OR...

As the vision is of a grown Rhaego, and as the events in the other two visions did actually transpire, this could indicate that the “Rhaego is alive!” theory may not be so crackpot after all and Ser Jorah Mormont has some ‘splainin to do. 

Rhaegar’s backstory turning out to be a lie - a story not about love as she has been told, but a dark story based in blood - is a treason.   Dany’s last known (to her) living relative selling her like a slave out of greed  is a treason. Someone sending her child away and claiming that this child is dead because he loves her and wants her for himself is a HUGE treason.     

Three princes, three treasons.  Daughter of death, slayer of lies.

Ooooo i love that connection as well.

18 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe because his helm's visor was closed? So she didn't actually saw his face.

In her dream (after she gave birth to Rhaego) she saw Rhaegar on horse, and when she lifted his helm's visor, she saw there her own face. Which means that maybe in the other scene, in the vision from THOU, Rhaegar's face was also covered by visor.

 

Dany knows the story of how her brother died and she knows Rhaegar's armour.Those two things alone would of been reason enough to call him "dying prince" Rhaegar instead of  " a dying prince"

As you also pointed out in the vision Dany saw Rhaegar on his horse.She didn't see his face she saw the armour and based on that thought it was him until the visor opened up and she saw her face.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for the discrepancy between the mounted combat and the vision: it has been proposed that Rhaegar's blow that injured Robert also knocked him down, and that Rhaegar dismounted, as well, because it was the chivalrous thing to do, and it got him killed, just like Daemon Blackfyre.

ETA: As Barristan notes during Belwas' duel with the champion of Meereen, a chivalrous man would dismount.

 

 

Ygrain really? You proposed that on the RLJ thread and as been pointed out to you.Jorah's statement had nothing to do with any extra act of chivilry from Rhaegar.He and Robert followed rules of combat.

5 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

While the parallels in these two duels also share a romantic thematic element with Jorah's joust for Lynesse (love of a woman), there's another darker undercurrent that is just as important:  unrequited love.    Catelyn didn't love Petyr, at least not in the way he wanted her to.   Lynesse briefly cared for Jorah - although it seems as though her "love" was directly tied to his ability to provide material goods for her, which isn't love at all - but decided in the end it was better to spend life as a concubine in Essos than stay with the husband so obsessed with her that he would resort to crime to keep her.    What does this say about Rhaegar and Lyanna?      Also interesting to look at the fates of the men:  Jorah went on to engage in activities that caused his personal and financial ruin; Petyr went on to engage in activities that caused his personal and financial gain; Rhaegar went on to...go to war and die?   Nah, there's something else.    We don't have that piece of the puzzle yet, but I'm willing to bet there was another arc to this that we'll get soon enough.

The unrequited love angle can also be applied to Loras' gifting of the rose to Sansa at the Hand's tourney...clearly that was just a token gesture since Loras had eyes only for Renly.  In this case we have an inverse parallel to the BS/PB/CT & RT/RB/LS triangles - this time, the jouster is the one who isn't romantically interested in the maiden...but the connection to REALLY explore (IMO) is the cheating in the joust at the end. 

(Also, the fact that Loras IS gay can also tie back to the OP and now we've come full circle.  lol       I think homosexuality is also one of the core thematic elements of these events, along with maids, Starks, roses, the color blue, tourneys/jousts, death/ruin, and of course unrequited love.  The trick is putting all these elements together.

These observations have always been the kicker and i think that this a little hint hint from the author to the fans.Look deeper. Yeah it easy to go the unrequited love angle,but i think the idea you proposed about the cheating is on point.I will also add the idea of not thinking that when someone does something chivilrous,make a gesture that's sweet,accept a gesture that sweet deeper feelings have to be behind it.

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Ah, well, there you don't have to persuade me because I made the same case back in May, in Heresy.  

So yeah, it's a good logical fit.  

The problem I have with this is solely that it's purely speculative -- I don't know that Aegon will say to himself "You know what, people might be more likely to think I'm Rhaegar's son if I'm wearing black armor with rubies on the breastplate." And I don't know he'll die, I don't know he'll kneel and murmur a name, etc.

I suppose one could make the case, though, that the above is more probable than the idea that Rhaegar took a giant spike in the heart... and somehow was then still alive and conscious and thus able to fall to his knees (but not on his horse, where he got hit) and murmur anybody's name.

If Robert had it right about this:

...well, that's quite a problem for people to ignore.

Word! It is a very logical fit.

But here's the thing let's not forget two all important factor.

Dany knows how Rhaegar died and Dany knows what Rhaegar's armour looks like. Even if dying prince had his visor down;seeing Rhaegar's armour on a person who died similar to Rhaegar would lead her to conclude its Rhaegar.

She just saw a guy that looked like Viserys and concluded it must be Rhaegar.When Selmy told her about the harp she was absolutely sure. 

So she's going to ignore armour and the way in which this guy died and just refer to him as "dying prince?" 

 

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

If it does indeed turn out to be Aegon VI, it’s of note that the woman’s name he murmurs can’t then be “Daenerys”, given that Dany would most certainly recognize her own name, trippy vision or no. 

That would imply that Aegon develops the hots for some other gal in the story that isn’t his cousin the dragon queen.

This makes for another interesting turn of events.It will be a while before Dany reaches Westeros i am sure when the deals are made a match(s) will be made for Aegon.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I wish people would have this kind of insight into the novels instead of the blind theory chucking we have now 

And this isn't a blind theory? That somehow Rhaegar acted above and beyond board in his fight with Robert. That he knocked Robert off his horse and dismouted,waited till Robert got up to finish fight him?

Really? Wow Selmy left a lot of things out seeing as he was there.He didn't mention that to Dany when speaking about how honorable Rhaegar was.

I'm sorry but i would believe Rhaegar is gay over this insight.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well, when you are desperate to shut down an contrary opinions and make absolutely everything fit into your fantasy of Rhaegar; it really isn't going too far to propose that he got off his goddam horse in the middle of battle -- as a courtesy.

I know right.

@Ygrain would have us believe this of Rhaegar. What would have been honorable for him to do was do what Petyr did with Brandon and challenge Robert for Lyanna's hand.

But i guess being honorable for Rhaegar was like a coughing fit.It comes and goes.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

43 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You mean Selmy? Selmy doesn't know how Rhaegar felt about Lyanna.He knows as much as everyone else does (which isn't anything) and made a statement based off what Rhaegar supposedly did.

If a man gave a woman flowers and it is said that said man ran off with the woman,what might anyone conclude? Its obvious that in a society and culture like this the thought would be he must have done it because he was love struck.

No one questioned if he actually did it,and if he did do it affections had anything to do with it.

No, it wouldn't be giving anything away. Every unsubstantiated rumour about Rhaegar and Lyanna has led to the majority of the fandom thinking one thing and it wasn't hard for that conclusion to be drawn.

Guy gives girl flower,guy is said to have run of with girl,both of them die and girl's brother comes home with baby he says is his.That is a bonified red herring.a surface reading alone would lead anyone to that conclusion.If it was Disney and not GRRM i would buy it.

Yes, Selmy, a member of the Kingsguard, who had been around the prince for his entire life. Your arguments are circular. "Because grrm wrote it it must not be true because he is a great author and he would never give away something like that" 
Now, Bob calling the prince a rapist in book one, the ambiguity of neds thought on the prince later, the story of the tourney at harrenhal leading to selmy's statement. It is a slow reveal to the inevitable conclusion that we have been talking about here for something like 165 seperate threads on the subject. 

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

And this isn't a blind theory? That somehow Rhaegar acted above and beyond board in his fight with Robert. That he knocked Robert off his horse and dismouted,waited till Robert got up to finish fight him?

Nope. it is a running theory, with textual evidence that fits a scenario. It is not like this thread, or numerous others posted by the op that required a huge amount of mental gymnastics and bending of the text to take an otherwise absurd notion and make it viable. 

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Really? Wow Selmy left a lot of things out seeing as he was there.He didn't mention that to Dany when speaking about how honorable Rhaegar was.

Again, why would you assume that an author like George would have a character lay everything out when it is part of the central mystery of the novels?  

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm sorry but i would believe Rhaegar is gay over this insight.

I know, this should totes be in your hearsay thread where stuff like the sexuality of the dead prince is more fitting  

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Now Dany also knows how Rhaegar died and this alone would have sparked recognition but it didn't.

Nonsense. Nowhere does it say that she didn't recognize the dying prince. That passage of the vision is full of generic terms but they don't mean Dany doesn't identify the people/objects - if she didn't recognize the name Rhaegar whispered, she may not even have known it was a woman's name. She thinks a blue flower, but some pages later it becomes clear that she saw a blue rose. The same for Rhaegar - if she didn't know who he was, how would she know that he was a prince? Did he have a label on his back?

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain really? You proposed that on the RLJ thread and as been pointed out to you.Jorah's statement had nothing to do with any extra act of chivilry from Rhaegar.He and Robert followed rules of combat.

In case it escaped your attention, the parallel is not based solely on Jorah's comment (which I didn't bring up in this thread) - in fact, it can perfectly exist even without it.

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

Ygrain would have us believe this of Rhaegar.

"You are required to do nothing, least of all believe. Shut one's eyes tight or open one's arms wide, either way, one's a fool." (Flemeth)

 

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What would have been honorable for him to do was do what Petyr did with Brandon and challenge Robert for Lyanna's hand.

Because it all went so well for the last guy who wanted to duel Rhaegar, right? If Robert injured or killed Rhaegar, do you think Aerys would care who challenged whom? And if Rhaegar won without as much as a scratch, what would Aerys do - say 'sure, son, you can keep her but you must feed her yourself'? Really? If you think so, fine, but please, next time refrain from dragging me into this.

 

[LynnS]

On 1/17/2018 at 7:46 PM, Megorova said:

Mirri is not just an eye witness, she's also a liar. And what exactly did she said is hinting that those are lies:

1. I drew him forth myself.

2. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption.

Don't you see absurdity of what she said? -> when she touched the baby, he supposedly disintegrated. If he disintegrated from her touch, then how did she drew him forth? Without touching him? With power of her mind? Is she a Jedy or something?

I don't think Sandman will mind if we go off topic here and I wanted to come back to this bit about Rhaego.  I'm of the mind that he is in fact born dead.  How can he be half dragon and half infant according to the midwives and dead long ago according to Dany?  It depends on what happened during Mirri's ritual to wake the old powers and how the dragon eggs were affected. 

The black egg is singled out as larger than the other two and although Illyrio says they come from Asshai (where we know dragons are still living); can we believe him that they are in fact dead or that they all come from Asshai?  I do agree with the idea that dragon eggs are bonded to Targaryens from birth and the idea that the eggs are soul containers is not far off the mark.  

It does seem likely to me that a part of Viserys has gone into the creme and gold egg and this accounts for Dany's vision of gold pouring into Viserys' mouth and her own experience of tasting gold when she takes the shade of the evening.  Viserion's flame is also shot with gold.

So then the copper youth riding under the banner of a flaming horse brings to mind Rheagal with his fire shot with copper and the green of the Dothraki sea, a combination of Targaryen and Dothraki bloodlines.  The vision of the copper youth could be symbolic of Rhaego reborn as the green and copper dragon.  So Rhaego does live in a sense.

I have strong doubts that Drogo's soul went into the black egg since he is not the blood of the dragon and Dany sees his soul rise from his body during the funeral ritual.  While I think that the creme and green eggs are relatively new, possibly from Asshai; the black egg comes from a different source and I suspect this was Rhaegar's egg and it contains his soul, long dead.

I suspect that Rhaegar is the singing dragon that Dany sees in her dreams; the one that transforms her.  This is the dragon that she wakes from the dead.  Her unborn son's life is exchanged for the life of the long dead egg also changing physical states with the black egg.  So Rheagal is born long dead and half dragon.  Rhaegar is resurrected as Drogon.

Mirri has wakes the old powers, the great wolf and the man limned in flame (the great dragon).  Dany provides the sacrifice of her unborn son.

  

            

[LynnS]

On 1/16/2018 at 6:16 PM, Megorova said:

3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.)

This is another vision that is wide open for interpretation. 

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . 

What exactly is a chink in the wall? 

Quote

By definition it's a narrow opening or crack, typically one that admits light.

"a chink in the curtains"

synonyms:opening, gap, space, hole, aperture, crack, fissure, crevice, cranny, cleft, split, slit, slot

My sense of it is that this is the Black Gate controlled by the greenseer at Whitetree. Bran describes the face as someone who has been kept alive of a thousand years.  Jon describes the weirwood at Whitetree as old and powerful. 

So I question whether the blue flower or rose as Jorah describes it, refers to Bran.  Whether or not he is actually meant to replace Bloodraven or the greenseer that controls the gate.  The blue flower growing in power by learning to access the power of the gate and the Wall.  Bran is often described as sweet.

We're told by the GoHH that the old powers are weak but they still exist and Euron mocks the drowned god as being powerless:

Spoiler

“The Crow’s Eye has fed your Drowned God well, and he has grown fat with sacrifice. Words are wind, but blood is power. We have given thousands to the sea, and he has given us victories!”

“…Your Grace,” said Torwold Browntooth. “I have the priests. What do you want done with them?”

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

 

It seems that Bran has recieved the kiss of the Drowned God:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

A turn or two later Sam stopped suddenly. He was a quarter of the way around the well from Bran and Hodor and six feet farther down, yet Bran could barely see him. He could see the door, though. The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

The door opened its eyes.

They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who.

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

I think perhaps that Bran will become the new drowned god.

In addition, we also have a strange wierwood growing from a hole at the Night Fort.  So literally growing from a chink in the wall.
 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

The Reeds decided that they would sleep in the kitchens, a stone octagon with a broken dome. It looked to offer better shelter than most of the other buildings, even though a crooked weirwood had burst up through the slate floor beside the huge central well, stretching slantwise toward the hole in the roof, its bone-white branches reaching for the sun. It was a queer kind of tree, skinnier than any other weirwood that Bran had ever seen and faceless as well, but it made him feel as if the old gods were with him here, at least.

Compare Jon's vision of tree-Bran:

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

 

 

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1. Life paid for life and Rhaego's life paid for one of her dragons.

2. The first thing when Dany came to did she call for her child? No,she called for her eggs.

1. Forget about first ritual, in which Dany, Rhaego and Jorah became uninvited guests. Funeral pyre was second ritual, and Rhaego wasn't part of it.

Three eggs - three dragons - 1. Drogo, 2. Mirri, 3. Horse. <- Drogo, Mirri and horse, all three burned in the pyre. The baby's remnants weren't given to fire.

Not Drogo's horse, this horse:

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Rakharo chose a stallion from the small herd that remained to them; he was not the equal of Khal Drogo’s red, but few horses were. In the center of the square, Aggo fed him a withered apple and dropped him in an instant with an axe blow between the eyes.

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. “It is not enough to kill a horse,” she told Dany. “By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child’s ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you.”

“I am tired of the maegi’s braying,” Dany told Jhogo. He took his whip to her, and after that the godswife kept silent.

Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find.

2. That's because while she was unconsciousness, she saw him in her dream, and subconsciously she knew that the baby was separated/taken from her, and they won't be together, she knew she lost him. Thus when she regained consciousness, she already knew that the baby isn't there, and thus she asked the eggs. Because at that moment, there was still one "dead" egg - Viseryon's, and when that egg was given to her, it also became "alive", like the other two.

18 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You mean Selmy? Selmy doesn't know how Rhaegar felt about Lyanna.He knows as much as everyone else does (which isn't anything) and made a statement based off what Rhaegar supposedly did.

If a man gave a woman flowers and it is said that said man ran off with the woman,what might anyone conclude? Its obvious that in a society and culture like this the thought would be he must have done it because he was love struck.

No one questioned if he actually did it,and if he did do it affections had anything to do with it.

Actually Rhaegar and Barristan went together to Trident. So it's possible that on the way there, Rhaegar told his story - where he was all this time, with whom, and why. Especially if on the way from King's Landing to Riverlands and Trident, they were passing near Harrenhal, and Rhaegar was reminiscing about what happened there between him and Lyanna.

18 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Dany knows how Rhaegar died and Dany knows what Rhaegar's armour looks like. Even if dying prince had his visor down;seeing Rhaegar's armour on a person who died similar to Rhaegar would lead her to conclude its Rhaegar.

Though prior meeting Barristan Selmy in later books, she didn't knew that Rhaegar died, with Lyanna's name as his last words.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think Sandman will mind if we go off topic here and I wanted to come back to this bit about Rhaego.  I'm of the mind that he is in fact born dead.  How can he be half dragon and half infant according to the midwives and dead long ago according to Dany? 

Mirri, not Dany, said that he was long dead.

And she lied about Rhaego, he wasn't born looking like some hybrid or half-monster. He's normal.

And I'm 90% sure that he is alive, 80% that he is one of three dragon heads, 70% that he's also in addition to being one of dragon heads, is also a Prince that was promised and second middle head of the dragon (he will become dragonrider second after Dany, while third will become Jon), 60% sure that Dany and her baby will reunite in her second or third chapter in TWOW (the other 40% is the possibility that in Vaes Dothrak she won't reunite with him, only hear from someone that he is alive, and that he is in Asshai, so she will fly to Asshai, and they will reunite there. Though maybe she will first go back to Meereen, and only then to Asshai, to take her baby back. Or maybe she will first go to Westeros, and Rhaego with Quaithe will go to 7K from Asshai, much later in the story, maybe even in ADOS book, near the end of it, for the final battle.)

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

On 17.01.2018 at 1:16 AM, Megorova said:

3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.)

This is another vision that is wide open for interpretation. 

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A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . 

What exactly is a chink in the wall? 

I came to conclusion that last vision in a set, is from times of Robert's rebellion - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth (stone beast from smoking tower, breathing shadow flame), and blue rose is little Jon in Winterfell, not from times of his life at The Wall.

Chink in the wall of ice, is the place in Starks family, given to Jon to grow, surrounded by their coldness, never really accepted as one of them, binded by his bastard status. And blue flower is a symbol of Lyanna. Thus this vision is actually - Lyanna's child growing in Starks family, given a small (bastard) place to be among them.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I question whether the blue flower or rose as Jorah describes it, refers to Bran. 

But everything Dany saw in THOU was connected to her. And there's no connection between her and Bran, and probably will never be.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I came to conclusion that last vision in a set, is from times of Robert's rebellion - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth (stone beast from smoking tower, breathing shadow flame), and blue rose is little Jon in Winterfell, not from times of his life at The Wall.

Well, I can see your mind is made up.

[Megorova]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, I can see your mind is made up.

Yep. Unless later it will turn out, that the dead man on a ship (last vision/prophecy that didn't happened yet), has no connection to Dany, only then I will reconsider whether the meaning of other visions could be different.

Could be that dead man on a ship already happened (and it's in Euron's chapter from TWOW). So to see whether this event is connected to Dany or not, we need to see whether Iron Fleet will sail to Essos, or maybe they will intercept Dany's fleet, when she will sail to Westeros. But if there will be no connection between Dany and Euron's fleet, and there won't be some other dead man on a ship, then I can change my mind about other visions. But so far, with information that we have now, I made a final conclusion about meaning of all of Dany's visions in THOU.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yep. Unless later it will turn out, that the dead man on a ship (last vision/prophecy that didn't happened yet), has no connection to Dany, only then I will reconsider whether the meaning of other visions could be different.

Could be that dead man on a ship already happened (and it's in Euron's chapter from TWOW). So to see whether this event is connected to Dany or not, we need to see whether Iron Fleet will sail to Essos, or maybe they will intercept Dany's fleet, when she will sail to Westeros. But if there will be no connection between Dany and Euron's fleet, and there won't be some other dead man on a ship, then I can change my mind about other visions. But so far, with information that we have now, I made a final conclusion about meaning of all of Dany's visions in THOU.

What you should do is post your theory on a separate thread since you have gone to the trouble to spell it out.  It would have more discussion that way.  

[Darth Sidious]

I suppose Rhaegar could have been gay at heart though Barristan says he was melancholy.  Taking this line of thought does open opportunities for further questions.  Why was Rhaegar melancholy?  That sounds like a perpetual case of depression to me.   Maybe he was infertile, shooting blanks.  Aegon and Rhaenys were sired by his best buddy, Ser Arthur.  Lyanna's baby, if one ever really existed, was also sired by another man (Arthur, Brandon, Mance).   Rhaenys was dark of hair.  Aegon was still a baby and a lot of babies have blonde hair that later turn dark.

[JNR]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:00 AM, PrettyPig said:

That would imply that Aegon develops the hots for some other gal in the story that isn’t his cousin the dragon queen.

Yep, and it's not too surprising, nor hard to guess which gal that might be (on the hypothesis he's the dying prince).

Hint: What sexpot from Dorne has been sent to talk to Aegon and determine his claim's legitimacy?

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wouldn't doubt that you came up with the same logic some time ago.  I forget what I had for breakfast, or... if I had breakfast.

I assumed we came up with it independently, and I bet other people have before us.  

The idea that Rhaegar didn't murmur any names, after Robert slammed his massive warhammer into Rhaegar's heart with his strength and weight behind it, is pretty straightforward. 

However, the idea that Rhaegar dismounted from his horse first, before getting hit, is doubtful given the canonical account, which says quite plainly:

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The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

I just don't see anything there about dismounting.  

Furthermore, if they had fought on foot, I wouldn't be at all sure Robert would have won, especially given the wounds we know he took.  I think that might have become a Mountain/Red Viper scenario in short order.

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

First, why wouldn't you quote the entire, not that long, sentence? Which is:

I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.

Not, mind you, "where he stood", but "at my feet" - apparently Rhaegar was not killed instantly.

If (per canon) their destriers were circling within arms' reach of each other, and (per canon) Robert slammed his giant warhammer into Rhaegar's chest, crushing it, and (per canon) Robert's spike destroyed Rhaegar's heart...

...I think we can easily guess that Rhaegar died instantly and fell off his horse (no longer being able to balance).  

And hence (per canon) died at Robert's feet, as Robert remained mounted, having won the duel.

22 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

not sure we're supposed to be all logical and analytical with that line. I think that in Bob's account of what had happened to Rhaegar's "black heart" there might be some metaphors and/or other figures of speech.

Well, the color is symbolic; I don't have any reason to think Rhaegar's heart was literally black.

That Robert slammed the spike of his massive warhammer into Rhaegar's heart, I have no reason to doubt happened.