OldGimletEye Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 On 2/6/2018 at 2:28 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Then we need a new system, yesterday. I believe Shryke has pointed out in the past that the American system of government is designed to force compromise. It doesn’t function well with major ideologically focused political parties. I don't really disagree with the thrust of your argument. But, the system is what it is, and probably won't change for awhile. But, anyway, give today's Republicans an inch and they'll take a mile. They are determined to get what they want and will do about anything to get it, no matter how ridiculous or dumb. You don't stop people like that by being Mr. Nice Guy. You stop them by taking their bullshit and then jamming it up their ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I don't really disagree with the thrust of your argument. But, the system is what it is, and probably won't change for awhile. But, anyway, give today's Republicans an inch and they'll take a mile. They are determined to get what they want and will do about anything to get it, no matter how ridiculous or dumb. You don't stop people like that by being Mr. Nice Guy. You stop them by taking their bullshit and then jamming it up their ass. I think this is true, but it's also why your republic is now dead. Whatever it becomes next, who knows? America will never function as it once did. It's just not how conventions work. Once broken, they're broken, and there is no law forcing you to follow them, just social norms. What Trump has done is irreparable. The president is a monarch, elected every four years, with near absolute-power - provided he has a compliant legislature. Which at the moment, he does. This is now a permanent shift in how the office works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 On 2/6/2018 at 6:28 PM, WinterFox said: War with NK is not popular. Personally I am hoping Trump is encouraged into initiating hostilities in the next four months. A resolution must be reached, it will be dreadful. But why not leave that burning sack of shit on Donnie's door? I'll paraphrase a guy not exactly noted for his pacifism, Bismarck, who said something like once you see the glazed eyes of a dying musketeer one will think twice about starting a war. I don't think a military conflict with NK is inevitable. And I wouldn't take kindly to somebody starting one because they did some very stupid or rash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 On 2/6/2018 at 6:10 PM, Shryke said: Trump is looking at starting one with North Korea this year and there's Republicans boasting it will help them in the midterms. Chicken Hawkery is a Republican Party tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAROVORKIN Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I'll paraphrase a guy not exactly noted for his pacifism, Bismarck, who said something like once you see the glazed eyes of a dying musketeer one will think twice about starting a war. I don't think a military conflict with NK is inevitable. And I wouldn't take kindly to somebody starting one because they did some very stupid or rash. China has already told North Korea that if they start a fight, they're on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ants Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 14 hours ago, denstorebog said: Anyone following the PA redistricting case? It has gone completely off the rails now, as Republicans are now floating the idea of impeaching the Democrat-led Supreme Court. That's right, they're discussing the notion of simply removing five Democrat judges over a decision they didn't like, and what makes this really interesting is that they have the votes in the Senate to legally do it. Down to the exact number, in fact, with the R-D split being 34-16, giving Republicans the two thirds required. I swear, if the next thread title isn't "Fun With Constitutional Crises" ... On 2/5/2018 at 9:06 AM, Sword of Doom said: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/holocaust-denier-arthur-jones-republican-3rd-congressional-district-lipinski-newman/ He also admitted he is a Nazi and said he is a former leader of the American Nazi Party. His campaign website contains a section called “Holocaust?” where he calls the genocide of six million Jews “the biggest blackest lie in history.” When making posts like these, it really should be pointed out that they are about individual loons, not the republican party as a whole. The top one the Republican party had actually sued to keep the guy off the ballot last time, and has no options this time. They said publicly that they don't want a nazi representing them. On the bottom one, it is a single state republican making the call. I know most here dislike (hate) the Republican party, but posting articles without any context about minor officials idiocy is not healthy for debate. We certainly wouldn't (and don't) like it when obscure one-off democrats get brought up as if they represent the entire democratic party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivin Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said: I'll paraphrase a guy not exactly noted for his pacifism, Bismarck, who said something like once you see the glazed eyes of a dying musketeer one will think twice about starting a war. I don't think a military conflict with NK is inevitable. And I wouldn't take kindly to somebody starting one because they did some very stupid or rash. Unfortunately the political realities of today are quite advanced. Bismark most likely could have disarmed the NK state decades ago. We do not have a Bismark, we have a Trump, and an oil salesman. Quite frankly the NK state cannot be allowed to enter an era of unchecked nuclear capability. It cannot be allowed to happen. NK seeking nuclear power is completely rational, but the irrational lengths to which the family has gone to endure through the most forceful of international pressure has left them incapable of functioning on the global stage. If you think the world is dangerous today, wait until strongmen the world over see that proliferation is a viable strategy. In ten years Putin will be selling functioning ICBM's in value packages to any dictator with enough gold to balance the scale. The clock is ticking. And unless you have a viable path to removing a series of extremely dishonest actors from power in America then there is no alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAROVORKIN Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, WinterFox said: Unfortunately the political realities of today are quite advanced. Bismark most likely could have disarmed the NK state decades ago. We do not have a Bismark, we have a Trump, and an oil salesman. Quite frankly the NK state cannot be allowed to enter an era of unchecked nuclear capability. It cannot be allowed to happen. NK seeking nuclear power is completely rational, but the irrational lengths to which the family has gone to endure through the most forceful of international pressure has left them incapable of functioning on the global stage. If you think the world is dangerous today, wait until strongmen the world over see that proliferation is a viable strategy. In ten years Putin will be selling functioning ICBM's in value packages to any dictator with enough gold to balance the scale. The clock is ticking. And unless you have a viable path to removing a series of extremely dishonest actors from power in America then there is no alternative. China has to be nervous about the prospect of someone like Kim have nukes. Perhaps they might decide to take Kim out of the picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 It's not Trump. Trump is nothing more then an inevitable symptom. The problem is the Republican party itself. And even that's more just a reflection of the american electorate itself. There was a really good recent book on this that was for me basically everything I've been thinking about for years now, except written up better and more well-researched and by actual political scientists: https://www.amazon.com/How-Democracies-Die-Steven-Levitsky/dp/1524762938 If you don't have time to read the book, Vox has a good article that hits the key points: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/2/16929764/how-democracies-die-trump-book-levitsky-ziblatt And Ezra Klein also did a podcast interview with them that does the same and hits a few further points on The Ezra Klein show. The critical point is basically here: Quote “Two basic norms have preserved America’s checks and balances in ways we have come to take for granted,” write Levitsky and Ziblatt. “Mutual toleration, or the understanding that competing parties accept one another as legitimate rivals, and forbearance, or the idea that politicians should exercise restraint in deploying their institutional prerogatives. These two norms undergirded American democracy for most of the twentieth century.” The way in which the right in america, via the Republican party, has steadily abandoned these ideas should be obvious. When it comes to Trump, he is merely a symptom of this. The problem is not so much what Trump does as that he is allowed to get away with it. As to where it originates, the answer is basically what you'd expect cause this is america man: race Quote Our democracy was built atop racism and has been repeatedly shaken in eras of racial progress. The founding compromises that birthed the country included entrenching slavery and counting African Americans as three-fifths of a person. The bloodshed required to end slavery almost ended our democracy with it — habeas corpus was suspended, a third of American states sat out the 1864 election, and the South was under military occupation. Then in the the Civil War’s aftermath, the pursuit of equality fell before the pursuit of stability — in Reconstruction and continuing up through the mid-20th century, the Democratic and Republican parties permitted the South to construct an apartheid state atop a foundation of legal discrimination and racial terrorism, and it was in this environment that American politics saw its so-called golden era, in which the two parties worked together smoothly and routinely. But of course, as the civil rights movement gains steam, so too does the breakdown of these norms as the Republican party pursues a platform based on racial, ethnic and religious exclusion. The parties begin to become ideologically cohesive in ways the American governmental system is incapable of handling and the electorate divides itself along harder lines between the parties. Quote The nonwhite share of the Democratic vote rose from 7 percent in the 1950s to 44 percent in 2012. Republican voters, by contrast, were still nearly 90 percent white into the 2000s. So as the Democrats have increasingly become a party of ethnic minorities, the Republican Party has remained almost entirely a party of whites. Quote in the 1950s, married white Christians were the overwhelming majority — nearly 80 percent — of American voters, divided more or less equally between the two parties. By the 2000s, married white Christians constituted barely 40 percent of the electorate, and they were now concentrated in the Republican Party. At this point the Republican party, as a party of white christians opposed to racial, ethnic and religious diversity along with rights for women and minorities, begins abandoning the pretense of viewing the Democrats as legitimate and becomes increasing extremist and willing to play hardball, putting their desire for power and control over the long term stability of the US's democratic system. (this would be the abandonment of toleration and forbearance, the two key pillars mentioned above) You can see this from everything from the Southern Strategy to Reagan to Gingrich's takeover of Congress to the GWB years and so on. From there recent history basically becomes unsurprising in it's general strokes. The Democrats win in 2006 and 2008 and the Republicans respond by refusing to acknowledge them as legitimate and refuse to even allow the government to be fully functional. They respond to the election of a black man by increasingly extremist racist rhetoric and allying behind a white supremacist authoritarian famous for being the loudest voice in the racist campaign against Obama to deny him as being legitimate, as president and as an american. They shrug at his destruction of every norm in cite and their alliance with a hostile foreign power because all they care about is winning. The simple fact is that the right wing in america has come to the point where they are willing to violate every norm and use every scrap of power they have to the maximum to maintain their power and their ethnic, racial and religious dominance. And there is not seemingly any obvious solution to dealing with that. The one big place I disagree with them is that they often talk about the danger of engaging in this behavior by either side. But ultimately I think it's obvious that OldGimletEye is correct and there is no other response to this escalation other then counter-escalation. Anything else simply cedes all power to the Republican party. But that escalation only makes the problem worse. The right-wing in america have fundamentally broken US democracy and it's slowly rotting because of it. But the Democrats cannot unilaterally solve that problem and there seems no hope currently that the Republican party will turn from their current course. The right-wing voter of america, the white christian terrified of being replaced, will not allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 A further stress on the system here, that Klein astutely brings up in the podcast interview I mention above, is the interactions of demographics and geography with the american system and it's focus on regional representation in very specific ways. Consider the difference between the popular vote and election outcomes in Congress and in the Presidency. What's the spread the Democrats will need to even get a majority in Congress? It's quite a bit over 50%+1. 5 elections where the President loses the popular vote and 2 of them are in the last 16 years. Gerrymandering, vote suppression, on and on. The breakdown of Senate seats vs population with respect to how many seats are needed to get things done in Congress. This is a pot waiting to boil over. The legitimacy of the electoral system is slowly degrading on the left because of it. And that's a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 16 minutes ago, ants said: When making posts like these, it really should be pointed out that they are about individual loons, not the republican party as a whole. The top one the Republican party had actually sued to keep the guy off the ballot last time, and has no options this time. They said publicly that they don't want a nazi representing them. On the bottom one, it is a single state republican making the call. I know most here dislike (hate) the Republican party, but posting articles without any context about minor officials idiocy is not healthy for debate. We certainly wouldn't (and don't) like it when obscure one-off democrats get brought up as if they represent the entire democratic party. The system allows them to represent the Republican party, which is a big reason they have steadily begun to take over the Republican party. It's why Ryan, the Speaker of the fucking House, can't get shit done on a basic level. And it's not like leadership isn't complicit here. Let's not forget they backed actual pedophile Roy Moore. Or the guy who assaulted a reporter. I wouldn't immediately assume they represent the party but it's absolutely fully possible, as it already has been in the past, that they will be allowed to do so by being supported and tolerated by the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 23 minutes ago, ants said: When making posts like these, it really should be pointed out that they are about individual loons, not the republican party as a whole. The top one the Republican party had actually sued to keep the guy off the ballot last time, and has no options this time. They said publicly that they don't want a nazi representing them. On the bottom one, it is a single state republican making the call. Yeah I tried to provide context in both cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 1 hour ago, ants said: When making posts like these, it really should be pointed out that they are about individual loons, not the republican party as a whole. The top one the Republican party had actually sued to keep the guy off the ballot last time, and has no options this time. They said publicly that they don't want a nazi representing them. On the bottom one, it is a single state republican making the call. I know most here dislike (hate) the Republican party, but posting articles without any context about minor officials idiocy is not healthy for debate. We certainly wouldn't (and don't) like it when obscure one-off democrats get brought up as if they represent the entire democratic party. god forbid anyone besmirch the good name of the republican party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 A small side note here, I was very worried not seeing Don Lemon for the last week on CNN, especially since almost every time I read comments to a political story somebody says something about hoping Lemon has been fired already. Turns out his sister passed away unexpectedly and he was home for the funeral. My sympathies to him and his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 1 hour ago, GAROVORKIN said: China has already told North Korea that if they start a fight, they're on their own. Well that's half good. What will China do if the USA starts a fight? Kim surely has many character flaws, but suicidal insanity is not likely to be one. So even without China telling him he's on his own if the starts a fight, it's highly unlikely he'd look to draw first blood in a fight where he is hopelessly outgunned. 1 hour ago, ants said: When making posts like these, it really should be pointed out that they are about individual loons, not the republican party as a whole. The top one the Republican party had actually sued to keep the guy off the ballot last time, and has no options this time. They said publicly that they don't want a nazi representing them. On the bottom one, it is a single state republican making the call. I know most here dislike (hate) the Republican party, but posting articles without any context about minor officials idiocy is not healthy for debate. We certainly wouldn't (and don't) like it when obscure one-off democrats get brought up as if they represent the entire democratic party. Surely there is some legitimacy to the notion that a movement / ideology / political group / organisation can be somewhat judged on the extremists it attracts. I guess some people might argue that the Left nutcases the democratic party attracts are as odious and dangerous to social norms and freedoms as an anti-Semetic Nazi, and I'd be very interested to see someone make that argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnot OG Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 4 hours ago, WinterFox said: War with NK is not popular. Personally I am hoping Trump is encouraged into initiating hostilities in the next four months. A resolution must be reached, it will be dreadful. But why not leave that burning sack of shit on Donnie's door? Trump isn't popular either, neither have the policies that the GOP has pushed through. They don't give a fuck. They are greedy bigoted pigs. And they get their dicks rock hard at the idea of killing people of color and would gladly sign off on a war with NK. Or, Trump just finally pushes the button and nukes the shit out of them. He isn't a person you can talk down, he is a fucking entitled sack of shit that is the epitome of white male entitlement. His hell spawn children are examples of it as well, and no doubt Baron will turn out like them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all swedes are racist Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 they are gonna get peoples warboners up with a bunch of fear mongering articles on north koreas nuclear capabilities, but the war they go into is going to be iran or possibly venezuela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I just heard tape of Senator Flake's response to Trump's comments about people who didn't cheer for him committing treason, that treason was not a punch line. And the official WH response to that is 'we don't care what he has to say, and no one else does, his numbers are down'? Being a senator is a tv program with ratings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: I just heard tape of Senator Flake's response to Trump's comments about people who didn't cheer for him committing treason, that treason was not a punch line. And the official WH response to that is 'we don't care what he has to say, and no one else does, his numbers are down'? Being a senator is a tv program with ratings? Everything to Trump is a TV show with ratings. That's literally all he cares about on a consistent basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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