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Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

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Rhaegar was married to Elia and had two children with her. If he was in love with Lyanna and Lyanna was in love with him, that is another matter. Now, saying that Elia was not innocent, that's a bit too much. She was a faithful spouse to Rhaegar and she gave him two healthy children, even though they always costed her life. If there was love or not between Rhaegar and Lyanna, I still call them selfish, they didn't stop to think the harm they would cause, because of their love, thousands of people died, including Lyanna's father and brother and Rhaegar caused the downfall of his house. I hate when people try to sugarcoat them, claiming that they loved each other and so their actions are justified. Robert's Rebellion (or the War of the Usurper) was an event that wounded people to this day, many are still grieving. Lyanna knew what would happen if she disappeared, her family would be worried and would look for her. Also, people think Rhaegar was so noble, but maybe that's just what people saw, but we don't know his true colours yet.

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38 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Rhaegar was married to Elia and had two children with her. If he was in love with Lyanna and Lyanna was in love with him, that is another matter. Now, saying that Elia was not innocent, that's a bit too much. She was a faithful spouse to Rhaegar and she gave him two healthy children, even though they always costed her life. If there was love or not between Rhaegar and Lyanna, I still call them selfish, they didn't stop to think the harm they would cause, because of their love, thousands of people died, including Lyanna's father and brother and Rhaegar caused the downfall of his house. I hate when people try to sugarcoat them, claiming that they loved each other and so their actions are justified. Robert's Rebellion (or the War of the Usurper) was an event that wounded people to this day, many are still grieving. Lyanna knew what would happen if she disappeared, her family would be worried and would look for her. Also, people think Rhaegar was so noble, but maybe that's just what people saw, but we don't know his true colours yet.

Rhaegar did willingly leave his two children to run off with Lyanna.  He had no reason to leave them.  They are definitely innocent  and paid the consequences.  A noble person would think about his children.  He didn't.  

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If Elia was complicit in Rhaegar's plan for Lyanna, and if Rhaegar had assured her that her children will be the first in line, why didn't she write to her brother telling him that everything was nice and dandy and he should send men to defend her husband's kingdom? Doran held back from the war for almost a year.

We really have no reason to believe that Elia was okay with Rhaegar's alleged love interests. Her being nice and dutiful isn't a reason, because nothing is more toxic to niceness than betrayal, and I've never heard that it's a wife's duty to tolerate her husband's bastards, not to mention tolerate him humiliating her at the most prestigious event of the century.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be that Rhaegar convinced her about the prophecies. I'm saying that we don't know, and we probably won't ever know. These type of posts are just an effort to glorify the victims of the tragedy, and worse, it is completely unnecessary. I'd much rather like an Elia that was angry at the injustices done toward her, a model example to her heir instead of a submissive woman who went along with anything her husband said, I'd like Rhaegar who didn't give a shit about the consequences, and did what he had to to bring TPtWP into the world, and a Lyanna who put her honor in front of her love life.

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41 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

If Elia was complicit in Rhaegar's plan for Lyanna, and if Rhaegar had assured her that her children will be the first in line, why didn't she write to her brother telling him that everything was nice and dandy and he should send men to defend her husband's kingdom? Doran held back from the war for almost a year.

Might depend on Rhaegar's intent--after all, Rhaegar hid out from the entire war. Only joining in when Aerys took Elia hostage and threatened her. Given that, having the Dornish hold back in case Rhaegar needed men later might be helpful.

I really, really think Rhaegar intended to use the war to depose his father--like he and Tywin did with the Defiance of Duskendale. He sat out the war for a reason--and he sat it out for a very long time.

44 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

We really have no reason to believe that Elia was okay with Rhaegar's alleged love interests. Her being nice and dutiful isn't a reason, because nothing is more toxic to niceness than betrayal, and I've never heard that it's a wife's duty to tolerate her husband's bastards, not to mention tolerate him humiliating her at the most prestigious event of the century.

Agreed--but we see Selyse put up with a lot--because she's a true believer. 

Elia clearly knows about the prophecies. Rhaegar had told her about them. The idea that she was a true believer has to be on the table.

45 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

I'm not saying that it couldn't be that Rhaegar convinced her about the prophecies. I'm saying that we don't know, and we probably won't ever know.

Fair enough--but we do have that scene in the House of the Undying. Really, really seems like Elia knew.

And Martin took time to set up a potential parallel in Stannis, Selyse, Davos, and Mel--and their focus on prophecy and destiny. Seems like looking at that dynamic might be worth it.

47 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

These type of posts are just an effort to glorify the victims of the tragedy, and worse, it is completely unnecessary. I'd much rather like an Elia that was angry at the injustices done toward her, a model example to her heir instead of a submissive woman who went along with anything her husband said,

As would I--can you think of an example from the text that is like that? So far, most of the women are pretty complicated. I'm not trying to be flippant--really, really--I just can't think of anyone in the books who's presented as that noble. 

Especially since we have the cult of Stannis and Selyse.

48 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

I'd like Rhaegar who didn't give a shit about the consequences, and did what he had to to bring TPtWP into the world,

One way or another, Rhaegar was willing to take risks--at Duskendale, at Harrenhal, sitting out the war, going into battle at the Trident. So, one way or another, he was willing to let people burn to bring about his ends.

50 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Lyanna who put her honor in front of her love life.

Given what we've seen of Arya's takes on love and family, on Jon, and even on Sansa--I think we may see this.

Though Ned does seem to believe Lyanna's death was at least partly her fault.

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1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

 

We really have no reason to believe that Elia was okay with Rhaegar's alleged love interests. Her being nice and dutiful isn't a reason, because nothing is more toxic to niceness than betrayal, and I've never heard that it's a wife's duty to tolerate her husband's bastards, not to mention tolerate him humiliating her at the most prestigious event of the century.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be that Rhaegar convinced her about the prophecies. I'm saying that we don't know, and we probably won't ever know. These type of posts are just an effort to glorify the victims of the tragedy, and worse, it is completely unnecessary. I'd much rather like an Elia that was angry at the injustices done toward her, a model example to her heir instead of a submissive woman who went along with anything her husband said, I'd like Rhaegar who didn't give a shit about the consequences, and did what he had to to bring TPtWP into the world, and a Lyanna who put her honor in front of her love life.

I think we have differing opinions on what strength is. If we look at Elia’s situation, there was no love between the marriage, but they did have a fondness for each other and communicated well. However, whether she believed it or not, her husband was convinced of a prophecy and needed a third child, which she could not bare. She seemed to have dearly loved her children, and if Rhaegar had told her about Lyanna and his intentions then she would be left with several options. If she agrees with a polygamous relationship, then she has Lyanna’s children that could threaten her own children and may put them in danger. If she disagrees, it may start another war, or he would have bastards that still could threaten her children. Or she could step down and leave to Dorne with her children and kept them safe. 

I think she probably would have agreed to step down and go to Dorne. Her children would have no problems in Dorne, and royalty blood and kingship does not seem to be a huge factor in Dorne. Sometimes there is strength in leaving a situation instead of being angry and fighting against someone. 

Edited by Crona

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9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

He sat out the war for a reason--and he sat it out for a very long time.

I think he sat out of the war to make sure Lyanna was pregnant. Because in the other case, what was it that made his plans fail? Did someone betray him? If he didn't think that Aerys won't force Elia, what did he think Robert might do to her, or to his children? I don't think Rhaegar had any plans about any war ever since he saw Lyanna at the tourney.

4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Fair enough--but we do have that scene in the House of the Undying. Really, really seems like Elia knew.

It doesn't Really, really seems, it just seems that she knows. It could just as well seem that she was listening to nonsense her husband was spouting. People do that our world too. Both ideas need to be on the table.

7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And Martin took time to set up a potential parallel in Stannis, Selyse, Davos, and Mel--and their focus on prophecy and destiny. Seems like looking at that dynamic might be worth it.

Okay, granted, I never saw the parallel, most likely because I never thought anybody could be as perfect as Stannis.

But there could be a potential parallel in Catelyn too, the dutiful wife and overall a nice person, Brienne thought so, and guess what? She hated Ned's bastard. I could draw a potential parallel to Cersei even, the wife that went against her husband, and guess what, she's gonna die, just like Elia did. ASoIaF is full of parallels, potential and otherwise. I would rather take facts, thank you very much. And the fact is that GRRM has said that Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was complicated. Was it complicated in the sense that they studied many complicated prophecies, or was it complicated because each tried their best to be true to the other and the other always seemed to fall short in reciprocating, is left for us to decide.

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18 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

She hated Ned's bastard.

I believe this is a bit too strong. Disliked, mistrusted, wanted him gone, sure - but she also felt shame for what she had done, and  don't think that is compatible with hate. And when she wasn't outside herself, she never wanted him dead, like Cersei with little Barra.

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Maybe we'll find Elia's journals somewhere and she gave her consent? It would make me feel better.

Though I must ask: why did she leave Dragonstone for King's Landing, where she watched Rhaenys and Aegon die, got raped and then her head smashed? Couldn't she have stayed at Dragonstone, particularly considering she was probably still delicate after giving birth to Aegon?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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I'm assuming Doran would know what went down. Elia was on Dragonstone before she left for King's Landing, she would have been freer to send ravens to Dorne. Maybe Oberyn even went to see her after Aegon's birth where she might have filled him in on what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she knew Rhaegar was going to name another his QoLaB if he won the tourney. We have Brandon's reaction to it in the World book, but nothing on the other hot head.

And really, this is what I have a bit of a difficult time wrapping my head around is Oberyn's lack of animosity toward the Targaryens. He doesn't mention Rhaegar once, and tries to get Dorne to rise for Viserys. So Rhaegar abandons his wife and children, takes Lyanna to Dorne. Aerys keeps Elia and the children as hostages for Dorne's good behavior, but Oberyn wants to put Viserys Targaryen on the throne. Oberyn could have tried to have Dorne split from the 7Ks. Whether he wanted to put Viserys on the throne or make Dorne an independent kingdom, both options spelled war anyway. 

My personal opinion is that Elia was supposed to leave Dragonstone for Dorne but might have been summoned to King's Landing and she went because she got worried what would happen if she didn't obey royal summons. 

I'm not convinced that Rhaegar had given up on the idea of deposing his father. I think both Rickard and Doran were aware of what Rhaegar was planning. The World book supposes that Doran held back his levies because of the way Elia was treated, but I find the reason a bit stupid since his sister is hostage to a mad man's whims. His sister, his niece, his nephew who is in the line of succession. 

I think the plans got crapped big time with Brandon's rush to KL and the events that followed.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I think he sat out of the war to make sure Lyanna was pregnant.

Maybe--but that's a lot of time. Especially since he already had his prince that was promised. 

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Because in the other case, what was it that made his plans fail? Did someone betray him? If he didn't think that Aerys won't force Elia, what did he think Robert might do to her, or to his children?

I'm assuming someone betrayed him. But it really seems like he only came back when Aerys threatened Elia and the kids

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I don't think Rhaegar had any plans about any war ever since he saw Lyanna at the tourney.

That seems. . .. unlikely. He'd been plotting with Tywin at least since Duskendale. According to the wiki, that's two years before marrying Elia. And long after Rhaegar had started reading books/histories/prophecies and shaping his life after them.

Then, even after his marriage, with baby #2 not long away, he's plotting again at Harrenhal.

No--Rhaegar was plotting on multiple fronts. Like Mance and Stannis. He had been plotting for years. He believed he was the rightful king and that he would bring forth the Prince that Was Promised. 

And if he hadn't gotten squeezed by Aerys and ending up dying at the Trident, he might just have pulled off the coup--Tywin, too, had stayed out of the war. If Rhaegar hadn't died, seems like a decent bet Tywin would have backed Rhaegar instead and eventually married Cersei to Rheagar (which is what Tywin had intended for a while).

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

It doesn't Really, really seems, it just seems that she knows. It could just as well seem that she was listening to nonsense her husband was spouting. People do that our world too. Both ideas need to be on the table.

Maybe--but Dany describes that scene as beautiful and sweet--it's short, but it seems like Elia wasn't at all surprised by what he said.

Any more than Selyse is surprised by Stannis' ideas. Or Mance's wives seem surprised by him. So, in the world of the books, the wives of men plotting great, prophetic destinies--so far, in Martinlandia, such wives seem like they are usually on board.

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Okay, granted, I never saw the parallel, most likely because I never thought anybody could be as perfect as Stannis.

Oh--my apologies. I didn't mean to imply perfection. No--I was drawing the parallel because of the sense of destiny tied to prophecy. We see it in Stannis (who has Targaryen blood) and in Mance (with a fair amount of Rhaegar like imagery around him). In those instances--Martin shows us how this cult-like world of "destiny" affects those inside it.

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

But there could be a potential parallel in Catelyn too, the dutiful wife and overall a nice person, Brienne thought so, and guess what? She hated Ned's bastard. I could draw a potential parallel to Cersei even, the wife that went against her husband, and guess what, she's gonna die, just like Elia did.

Maybe--but neither of them is involved with a man who is driven by prophecy and destiny. 

Seems like Stannis and Mance are closer parallels.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I believe this is a bit too strong. Disliked, mistrusted, wanted him gone, sure - but she also felt shame for what she had done, and  don't think that is compatible with hate. And when she wasn't outside herself, she never wanted him dead, like Cersei with little Barra.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

ASoIaF is full of parallels, potential and otherwise. I would rather take facts, thank you very much. And the fact is that GRRM has said that Rhaegar and Elia's marriage was complicated. Was it complicated in the sense that they studied many complicated prophecies, or was it complicated because each tried their best to be true to the other and the other always seemed to fall short in reciprocating, is left for us to decide.

1. I, too, would like facts--and the next book (grumble, grumble).

2. As you say, "complicated" could mean a lot of things. 

3. My point is just that Martin has told us that Rhaegar is interested in prophecy and interested in being king--to the point of being willing to depose his father. Those elements--prophecy, destiny, kingship--those specifically show up in Stannis and Mance. So, from a literary standpoint, seems like we should pay attention to that parallel, as opposed to more general ones.

Maybe.

 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Though I must ask: why did she leave Dragonstone for King's Landing, where she watched Rhaenys and Aegon die, got raped and then her head smashed? Couldn't she have stayed at Dragonstone, particularly considering she was probably still delicate after giving birth to Aegon?

Aerys took her hostage--I'm guessing he may have "called" or ordered her to return. . . . but that's a guess.

44 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

And really, this is what I have a bit of a difficult time wrapping my head around is Oberyn's lack of animosity toward the Targaryens. He doesn't mention Rhaegar once, and tries to get Dorne to rise for Viserys. So Rhaegar abandons his wife and children, takes Lyanna to Dorne. Aerys keeps Elia and the children as hostages for Dorne's good behavior, but Oberyn wants to put Viserys Targaryen on the throne. Oberyn could have tried to have Dorne split from the 7Ks. Whether he wanted to put Viserys on the throne or make Dorne an independent kingdom, both options spelled war anyway. 

Good point--and I think Oberyn was plotting in other ways, too. 

And we have Arianne--plotting to put Myrcella on the throne--might be a parallel Martin is drawing for us to what happened in the past--the Martells might have been in on some of Rhaegar's plans.

47 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

My personal opinion is that Elia was supposed to leave Dragonstone for Dorne but might have been summoned to King's Landing and she went because she got worried what would happen if she didn't obey royal summons. 

That works.

47 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I'm not convinced that Rhaegar had given up on the idea of deposing his father. I think both Rickard and Doran were aware of what Rhaegar was planning. The World book supposes that Doran held back his levies because of the way Elia was treated, but I find the reason a bit stupid since his sister is hostage to a mad man's whims. His sister, his niece, his nephew who is in the line of succession. 

I can buy it with Doran--and I agree Rhaegar hadn't given up.

But why Rickard? If he was in on it, why would he go to Aerys?

48 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think the plans got crapped big time with Brandon's rush to KL and the events that followed.

Agreed--it's one of the reasons I think Tywin or one of his lackeys sent a letter to Brandon accusing Rhaegar of various horrible acts towards Lyanna.  Just like Baelish has Lysa send that letter to Cat--get everyone upset and discombobulated. Makes it easier to start a war and get rid of Aerys.

 

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I believe this is a bit too strong. Disliked, mistrusted, wanted him gone, sure - but she also felt shame for what she had done, and  don't think that is compatible with hate. And when she wasn't outside herself, she never wanted him dead, like Cersei with little Barra.

I don't know , but to me it sounded like she did to me . Catelyn to Jon in AGOT "Jon , it should have been you . " Concerning Bran's fall .

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36 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I can buy it with Doran--and I agree Rhaegar hadn't given up.

But why Rickard? If he was in on it, why would he go to Aerys?

Rickard went to Aerys because he was summoned there to "ransom" his son, except he was imprisoned instead and later killed.

My thought process on this is fairly easy.

Brandon is with his friends, on his way to meeting Lyanna. Rickard is coming from the north with his men. We don't know what Ned's whereabouts are, so I assumed he is still at the Eyrie with Jon Arryn and Robert, and then there's Lyanna traveling from somewhere headed to meet Brandon. We are told Rhaegar and his party fell upon her and kidnapped her.

Since I don't think Rhaegar had given up on removing Aerys from the throne, I think he too was headed to Riverrun for the wedding when his party encountered Lyanna's party. Brandon and Catelyn's wedding is sort of a big deal in that these are the two eldest children of two lords paramount getting married. 

Essentially at Riverrun, at the wedding, we would have Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, possibly Jon Arryn who was Ned's foster father, Robert Baratheon who is Ned's BFF and knew Brandon. We might even have Tywin Lannister. We know that he and Hoster Tully were making plans to marry Lysa and Jaime, so Tywin could make the trip for the wedding. Rhaegar might already have Doran Martell in on his plans. That would only leave Mace Tyrell, but Mace Tyrell would fall in line if he sees all the support that Rhaegar has garnered. 

Riverrun would be a smaller scale Harrenhal, but with all the right people present. The ones he really needs at his back to call a great council. 

In the meantime, I think after Harrenhal, Rhaegar might have made some overtures with Rickard Stark about Lyanna. Betrothals can be set aside, and Robert would be pissed without the shadow of a doubt. Even with that, Rhaegar might still have 5 or 6 out of 7 kingdoms. 

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On 2/6/2018 at 3:41 PM, Ygrain said:

Thank you. Elia seems gentler and kinder than the rest of her family we have been introduced to, but that doesn't equal weak, and she was clever, which doesn't correspond with passivity, either.

I find Elia to be, even contrary to what Oberyn said, much closer in character to Doran than to him. I can see her plotting with her husband all along and ultimately paying the most horrible price. I don't buy the whole passive, meek, humiliated wife picture we have been made to believe in. Just like with every "broken" thing, Martin does like to surprise us. And I don't think Elia would be an exception.

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Also, one thing about Elia's involvement: we have no idea how much, or if, she valued her position as the future queen-to-be, along with her children's succession in the Targ lineage. If she cared more about living a happy life, rather than powerplay and dynasties and whatever, then her cooperation in the Lyanna affair, e.g. in exchange for being able to return to Dorne, doesn't seem so far-fetched. Mellario did resign on being the consort to the Prince of Dorne, after all, and although such a decision is probably more understandable with her, as she was not raised in Westeros, she did set a certain example.

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On February 10, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Widow's Watch said:

Rickard went to Aerys because he was summoned there to "ransom" his son, except he was imprisoned instead and later killed.

Oh--yes of course. I meant, if he was in cahoots with Rhaegar and knew all of this was a plot, why would he give in so easily to Aerys? Seems like he might have tried to maneuver out of the mess differently. 

Though that is obviously highly speculative.

On February 10, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Widow's Watch said:

Since I don't think Rhaegar had given up on removing Aerys from the throne, I think he too was headed to Riverrun for the wedding when his party encountered Lyanna's party. Brandon and Catelyn's wedding is sort of a big deal in that these are the two eldest children of two lords paramount getting married. 

Maybe--but given the reaction to his crowning Lyanna--especially the Stark reaction to the crowning--this seems like an odd move on Rhaegar's part. Brandon was the one who was particularly incensed. Going to his wedding seems. . . odd. 

And do High Lords and Kings in these books generally attend weddings of people they aren't connected to? I'm realizing I don't know--but the wedding even of High Lords seems like it's much more of a local affair, just the parties involved and their direct retainers.

On February 10, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Widow's Watch said:

Essentially at Riverrun, at the wedding, we would have Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, possibly Jon Arryn who was Ned's foster father, Robert Baratheon who is Ned's BFF and knew Brandon. We might even have Tywin Lannister. We know that he and Hoster Tully were making plans to marry Lysa and Jaime, so Tywin could make the trip for the wedding. Rhaegar might already have Doran Martell in on his plans. That would only leave Mace Tyrell, but Mace Tyrell would fall in line if he sees all the support that Rhaegar has garnered. 

Riverrun would be a smaller scale Harrenhal, but with all the right people present. The ones he really needs at his back to call a great council. 

A fair point--could be interesting.

As I said, the Starks seem unlikely to be friendly at this point, though. 

Plus Aerys has snatched away Tywin's marriage plans by Kingsguarding Jaime. So, no reason for Tywin to go. 

Just really seems like Rhaegar might be unlikely to get a positive hearing even if he risked this.

On February 10, 2018 at 5:24 PM, Widow's Watch said:

In the meantime, I think after Harrenhal, Rhaegar might have made some overtures with Rickard Stark about Lyanna. Betrothals can be set aside, and Robert would be pissed without the shadow of a doubt. Even with that, Rhaegar might still have 5 or 6 out of 7 kingdoms. 

This one I struggle with--it is possible, but I can't find any hint of it. Ned does say he'll find Sansa a better husband when the "Baratheon" Joffrey ends up being horrible, but he doesn't then turn and try to arrange a marriage to an already married man. 

No--it's theoretically possible, I grant you. Just can't see any hints in the novels.

Or are you thinking of a specific parallel that I'm missing?

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, one thing about Elia's involvement: we have no idea how much, or if, she valued her position as the future queen-to-be, along with her children's succession in the Targ lineage. If she cared more about living a happy life, rather than powerplay and dynasties and whatever, then her cooperation in the Lyanna affair, e.g. in exchange for being able to return to Dorne, doesn't seem so far-fetched. Mellario did resign on being the consort to the Prince of Dorne, after all, and although such a decision is probably more understandable with her, as she was not raised in Westeros, she did set a certain example.

Agreed--though I'd argue Selyse and Dalla are much more likely to give us potential parallels for Elia.

Especially since Mance has enough Rhaegar imagery around him to inspire "Mance is Rhaegar" theories.

No, I do not think Mance is Rhaegar. But I do think the imagery around him is put there in large part for readers--so we can draw parallels and get hints about what Rhaegar did.

Selyse is all in for Stannis' plans to take the kingdom and for his "cult"--she was on board with Mel before Stannis was.

And Dalla, too, is all in for Mance. She, too, is all in for the ideas about magic and destiny and saving the free folk from the Others. She knows all the history and rules. She schools Jon on the whole "magic is a sword without a hilt" stuff.

And then we are given Arianne Martell--Dornish princess eagerly involved in plots to change who sits the throne.

No--I think there's a good chance all of that is in the novels for a reason: I think Elia was all in for Rhaegar's plans. And, like Selyse and Dalla and even Arianne, she'd want people involved in her "plot" that she could trust, not outsiders or new converts.

So far in the novels, Stark Maids like Arya and Jon show little to no sympathy for these kinds of plots--let alone for cults. Jon's no true believer in Mance or Stannis. Same with Arya and the Brotherhood. And Arya chooses her Starkness over the House of Black and White by keeping Needle. Really seems like Martin is telling us that a Stark Maid like Lyanna would be unlikely to embrace Rhaegar's plots and cult.

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37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Oh--yes of course. I meant, if he was in cahoots with Rhaegar and knew all of this was a plot, why would he give in so easily to Aerys? Seems like he might have tried to maneuver out of the mess differently. 

Though that is obviously highly speculative.

Maybe--but given the reaction to his crowning Lyanna--especially the Stark reaction to the crowning--this seems like an odd move on Rhaegar's part. Brandon was the one who was particularly incensed. Going to his wedding seems. . . odd. 

And do High Lords and Kings in these books generally attend weddings of people they aren't connected to? I'm realizing I don't know--but the wedding even of High Lords seems like it's much more of a local affair, just the parties involved and their direct retainers.

A fair point--could be interesting.

As I said, the Starks seem unlikely to be friendly at this point, though. 

Plus Aerys has snatched away Tywin's marriage plans by Kingsguarding Jaime. So, no reason for Tywin to go. 

Just really seems like Rhaegar might be unlikely to get a positive hearing even if he risked this.

This one I struggle with--it is possible, but I can't find any hint of it. Ned does say he'll find Sansa a better husband when the "Baratheon" Joffrey ends up being horrible, but he doesn't then turn and try to arrange a marriage to an already married man. 

No--it's theoretically possible, I grant you. Just can't see any hints in the novels.

Or are you thinking of a specific parallel that I'm missing?

I thought it was Cersei's idea to get Jaime into the Kingsguard because she wanted to keep Jaime to herself.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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24 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought it was Cersei's idea to get Jaime into the Kingsguard because she wanted to keep Jaime to herself.

Yes--but Jaime makes it very clear that Aerys went along with it because he wanted to thwart and humiliate Tywin.

Quote

 

King Aerys made a great show of Jaime's investiture. He said his vows before the king's pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey."
 
That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir. Storm, Jaime VI

 

 

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