Heresy 205 bats and little green men

[SirArthur]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

“Lannister, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell, they’re all just spokes on a wheel.  This one’s on top and that one’s on top and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground. We’re not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”

where does this come from ? Is this a Lord / Lady Dustin situation because once again my asoiaf search fu fails me. 

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

where does this come from ? Is this a Lord / Lady Dustin situation because once again my asoiaf search fu fails me. 

I apologize, because this quote is actually from the mummer's version in the Hardhome episode, but I do believe there is something similar in the books. I have to search for it. Will post once I find it.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I was thinking of Marwyn and his glass candles as a potential point of origin, and your suggestion that the Sphinx might be playing the role of Quaithe would fit well thematically:
Speaking of that 'riddle' in ADWD, while it gives the appearance of prophecy/telling the future, much of what it actually conveys is information that may have been gleaned in real time by a glass candle's farsight--even the coming of the 'pale mare.'

Indeed, some of the figures that Dany was warned are coming  - griffin and mummer's dragon - have taken quite a detour, which to me reinforces the idea that Quaithe was not predicting the future per se, but relaying information, some of which subsequently became obsolete.

Note also that the list of figures heading toward Dany has a potential absence: Marwyn the Mage. Unless Marwyn is the "perfumed seneschal," which is possible. However, if it isn't Marwyn, then Quaithe's riddle possibly takes on a manipulative quality. 

The pale mare proves to Dany the truth of Quaithe's words, the subsequent arrivals reinforce it, and the tone of Quaithe's warning isolates Dany from placing trust in Quentyn, Tyrion, Moqorro, etc... which may make Dany all the more susceptible if Marwyn is given some sort of implicit endorsement of trustworthiness from Quaithe.

Now that you mention it; Sarella as Quaithe could be considered a dangerous friend along with Marwyn.  Quaithe doesn't tell her anything about Marwyn which seems an important omission.   The Sphynx is the riddle, but not the riddler?   

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

"The day you make them all is the day you stop improving." Alleras unstrung his longbow and eased it into its leather case. The bow was carved from goldenheart, a rare and fabled wood from the Summer Isles. Pate had tried to bend it once, and failed. The Sphinx looks slight, but there's strength in those slim arms, he reflected, as Alleras threw a leg across the bench and reached for his wine cup. "The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

"No riddle." Alleras sipped his wine. The rest of them were quaffing tankards of the fearsomely strong cider that the Quill and Tankard was renowned for, but he preferred the strange, sweet wines of his mother's country. Even in Oldtown such wines did not come cheap.

 

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IVThat had been one of his last good days. After that the old man spent more time sleeping than awake, curled up beneath a pile of furs in the captain's cabin. Sometimes he would mutter in his sleep. When he woke he'd call for Sam, insisting that he had to tell him something, but oft as not he would have forgotten what he meant to say by the time that Sam arrived. Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Reznak? Why should I fear him?" Dany rose from the pool. Water trickled down her legs, and gooseflesh covered her arms in the cool night air. "If you have some warning for me, speak plainly. What do you want of me, Quaithe?"

Moonlight shone in the woman's eyes. "To show you the way."

"I remember the way. I go north to go south, east to go west, back to go forward. And to touch the light I have to pass beneath the shadow." She squeezed the water from her silvery hair. "I am half-sick of riddling. In Qarth I was a beggar, but here I am a queen. I command you—"

If Aemon thinks that he should be one of the heads of the dragon - to show the way - does this mean that Quaithe is one of the heads of the dragon?

Marwyn intends to take Aemon's place as one of the heads of the dragon:
 

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"What will you do?" asked Alleras, the Sphinx.

"Get myself to Slaver's Bay, in Aemon's place. The swan ship that delivered Slayer should serve my needs well enough. The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don't doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first." Marwyn glanced at Sam again, and frowned. "You . . . you should stay and forge your chain. If I were you, I would do it quickly. A time will come when you'll be needed on the Wall." He turned to the pasty-faced novice. "Find Slayer a dry cell. He'll sleep here, and help you tend the ravens."

 

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Any connection with Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen?

Shady Glen along with Greywater Watch seem to be places that nobody can locate unless they have inside information.  Perhaps Ser Shadrich fled to the Crannogmen for safety at one point when House Lothston was extinguished.

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, JNR said:

If so, Quaithe either is a true shadowbinder of Asshai, or wore such a mask because she thought her audience (Dany) would expect her to be wearing one if she were a shadowbinder of Asshai.  And since Quaithe has no apparent investment in Dany believing she's a shadowbinder, I'm inclined to think she really is a shadowbinder.

She does seem to have an investment -- specifically 'showing the way', something that Aemon thinks is his duty as one of the heads of the dragon.  If Quaithe is the Sphynx, masking her identity makes some sense since she is also incognito at the Citadel.  

[LynnS]

On 2/25/2018 at 5:50 PM, LordImp said:

For some reason I think Euron has some connection to some creepy stuff in Asshai. 

Yes, I'm not sure how we drill down into stuff about Asshai though. 

[Brad Stark]

Is Quaithe really on Dany's side?  If Tryrion's ship, Stinky Steward, is the perfumed senchal, she warned against trusting him, and he seems to be trustworthy and useful.  But trusting him could be a mistake, even if he is trustworthy,  if you can see the future.

[JNR]

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

She does seem to have an investment -- specifically 'showing the way'

True, but there was no reason to pretend to be a shadowbinder in particular to achieve that.  

She could simply have said she was a mystic, a seer, a prophet, a visionary... or more specifically, since she actually met Dany in Qarth, she could have claimed that she had tried shade of the evening (since it was locally available) and it had shown her the future.

Shadowbinders, as far as we know, do not even have a reputation for being able to see the future. (Melisandre can, and Melisandre is a shadowbinder, but that isn't the same thing.  The reason Mel can see the future is that she is also a priestess of R'hllor.)

What kind of rep do shadowbinders have?  Dany tips us off in AGOT:

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spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night

So if Quaithe is not a shadowbinder, I find it odd she would have pretended to be one to get credibility as a prophet.  I think she probably is what she says she is.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Is Quaithe really on Dany's side?  If Tryrion's ship, Stinky Steward, is the perfumed senchal, she warned against trusting him, and he seems to be trustworthy and useful.  But trusting him could be a mistake, even if he is trustworthy,  if you can see the future.

I think the short answer is that she appears or perhaps more accurately claims to be, but she's also hiding in the shadows and we know nothing of who she is and why

[SirArthur]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I apologize, because this quote is actually from the mummer's version in the Hardhome episode, but I do believe there is something similar in the books. I have to search for it. Will post once I find it.

phew. Context is everything and the one single wheel mention (in this context) is in "The Kraken's daughter" and it's by Archmaester Rigney: the real surname of "Robert Jordan". 

[LordImp]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Is Quaithe really on Dany's side?  If Tryrion's ship, Stinky Steward, is the perfumed senchal, she warned against trusting him, and he seems to be trustworthy and useful.  But trusting him could be a mistake, even if he is trustworthy,  if you can see the future.

My biggest problem with Quathie is that she didn't warn Dany about Euron. Euron could be the kraken ofc but that"s probably Vic. I know that originally she warned Dany about the Crow , but for some reason that was scrapped. 

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Two things: Shady Dell Glen is soooo close in meaning to Duskendale, and in one of the Dunk and Egg stories the lord of Duskendale is a redhead. And per Ser Shardich he was on the wrong side in that battle. Or is that three things?

If this has all been brought up before, I'm a stranger to the Heresy area, so cut me a little slack.

I think I like this theory better than my own House Piper theory.  The timing of his appearance fits since it occurs just before Brienne travels to Duskendale, a place we’ve heard about many times but had never personally observed until Brienne’s quest.  Shadrich also seems to know a lot about Dontos Hollard which seems to fit.  And finally the choice of a white mouse, might be a sly acknowledgement of his House’s violation of the Guest Right in the Duskendale defiance.  If so, my guess is that Shadrich might be a bastard of Duskendale, which might be how he survived Aery’s scourge of the House.

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think I like this theory better than my own House Piper theory.  The timing of his appearance fits since it occurs just before Brienne travels to Duskendale, a place we’ve heard about many times but had never personally observed until Brienne’s quest.  Shadrich also seems to know a lot about Dontos Hollard which seems to fit.  And finally the choice of a white mouse, might be a sly acknowledgement of his House’s violation of the Guest Right in the Duskendale defiance.  If so, my guess is that Shadrich might be a bastard of Duskendale, which might be how he survived Aery’s scourge of the House.

That's interesting. That would give Ser Shadrick a reason to tweak Aerys' nose as the KotLT.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

My biggest problem with Quathie is that she didn't warn Dany about Euron. Euron could be the kraken ofc but that"s probably Vic. I know that originally she warned Dany about the Crow , but for some reason that was scrapped. 

I don't remember anything about the crow.  What does she say to Dany about it? 

[LordImp]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't remember anything about the crow.  What does she say to Dany about it? 

I can't find it right now , but in the original chapter Quathie warned Dany about Crow and Kraken. But he replaced Crow with Dark flame in the published chapter. 

 

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I can't find it right now , but in the original chapter Quathie warned Dany about Crow and Kraken. But he replaced Crow with Dark flame in the published chapter.

This is all I can find:

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Are you thinking of Moqorro or Benerro maybe?

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VII

The priest was pointing at the Black Wall behind the temple, gesturing up at its parapets, where a handful of armored guardsmen stood gazing down. "What is he saying?" Tyrion asked the knight.

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Griff, with his young prince. Could all that talk of the Golden Company sailing west have been a feint? Tyrion considered saying something, then thought better. It seemed to him that the prophecy that drove the red priests had room for just one hero. A second Targaryen would only serve to confuse them. "Have you seen these others in your fires?" he asked, warily.

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

Black/dark eye and dark flame - perhaps someone is using a glass candle to watch her?  Just as Quaithe has warned:
 

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years.

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Who is Urrathon Night-Walker?

Urrathon IV Goodbrother,[N 1] also known as Badbrother, was a High King of the Iron Islands who ruled during the Age of Heroes.

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History

When King Urragon III Greyiron died, a kingsmoot was called by his family while one of the king's sons, Torgon Greyiron, was raiding the Mander. The king's younger sons were hoping that one of them would be elected the new king but the ironborn chose Urrathon Goodbrother instead. Urrathon IV's first act was to have all of the late king's sons at the kingsmoot executed. Thus Urrathon became known as Badbrother, even though they were no kin of his.

Urrathon ruled for two years and made many enemies due to his cruelty. Torgon, the only surviving son of the previous king, returned to the islands and declared the kingsmoot decision unlawful as he had not been present to put forth his claim as was his right. The priests, people and captains agreed and Urrathon was put down and hacked to pieces.[1][2]

 

Euron is certainly styling himself after Urrathon Badbrother right down to his black horn with gold banding (dragonbinder):
 

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

That was when the Damphair realized that three horsemen had joined his drowned men on the pebbled shore. Aeron knew the Sparr, a hatchet-faced old man with watery eyes whose quavery voice was law on this part of Great Wyk. His son Steffarion accompanied him, with another youth whose dark red fur-lined cloak was pinned at the shoulder with an ornate brooch that showed the black-and-gold warhorn of the Goodbrothers.

 

 

[JNR]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Euron is certainly styling himself after Urrathon Badbrother

This is a good example of how the World book is an unreliable source, though.

If you look at the text, you'll see the World book gets the name wrong.

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When King Urragon III Greyiron died, a kingsmoot was called by his family while one of the king's sons, Torgon Greyiron, was raiding the Mander. The king's younger sons were hoping that one of them would be elected the new king but the ironborn chose Urrathon Goodbrother instead. Urrathon IV's first act was to have all of the late king's sons at the kingsmoot executed. Thus Urrathon became known as Badbrother, even though they were no kin of his.

The first version -- Urragon -- is correct, as shown above.

Then the World book switches arbitrarily to "Urrathon," which is wrong, and it sticks with the wrong version.  We know this because the canonical version of the tale, from ADWD, is:

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Torgon Greyiron was the king's eldest son. But the king was old and Torgon restless, so it happened that when his father died he was raiding along the Mander from his stronghold on Greyshield. His brothers sent no word to him but instead quickly called a kingsmoot, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. But the captains and the kings chose Urragon Goodbrother to rule instead. The first thing the new king did was command that all the sons of the old king be put to death, and so they were. After that men called him Badbrother, though in truth they'd been no kin of his. He ruled for almost two years.

So Euron does broadly resemble Urragon... yet Urrathon Night-Walker, who is only mentioned once (by Xaro in ACOK) is probably not connected either to Urragon or to Euron.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That would give Ser Shadrick a reason to tweak Aerys' nose as the KotLT.

However, the KoLT's main goal was to teach honor to the three squires who had abused Howland.

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When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squire honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. 

Ser Shadrich's motive to do this seems unclear, since he has no known connection to Howland.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

phew. Context is everything and the one single wheel mention (in this context) is in "The Kraken's daughter" and it's by Archmaester Rigney: the real surname of "Robert Jordan". 

Yes, I am aware of the Rigney-Jordan connection referring to his well known Wheel of Time series. GRRM also included House Jordayne of the Tor with their sigil a golden pen upon a green-checkered field in ASOIAF. Tor was Jordan's publisher. The checkered field may be symbolic as well and open to interpretation.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think I like this theory better than my own House Piper theory.  The timing of his appearance fits since it occurs just before Brienne travels to Duskendale, a place we’ve heard about many times but had never personally observed until Brienne’s quest.  Shadrich also seems to know a lot about Dontos Hollard which seems to fit.  And finally the choice of a white mouse, might be a sly acknowledgement of his House’s violation of the Guest Right in the Duskendale defiance.  If so, my guess is that Shadrich might be a bastard of Duskendale, which might be how he survived Aery’s scourge of the House.

IMO Ser Shadrich is an echo - a repeat - a mirror of the KofLT and the possible Duskendale connection is another point to the Targaryen family and an event that could have led to Aerys death.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

That's interesting. That would give Ser Shadrick a reason to tweak Aerys' nose as the KotLT.

Duskendale was after the Harrenhal Tourney, no?

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

I can't find it right now , but in the original chapter Quathie warned Dany about Crow and Kraken. But he replaced Crow with Dark flame in the published chapter. 

 

Kraken and Dark flame are meant as a pair and Victarion does have a red priest with him.

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is all I can find:

Are you thinking of Moqorro or Benerro maybe?

Black/dark eye and dark flame - perhaps someone is using a glass candle to watch her?  Just as Quaithe has warned:
 

Who is Urrathon Night-Walker?

Urrathon IV Goodbrother,[N 1] also known as Badbrother, was a High King of the Iron Islands who ruled during the Age of Heroes.

Euron is certainly styling himself after Urrathon Badbrother right down to his black horn with gold banding (dragonbinder):
 

 

Damphair associates Euron with King Urron who made the throne hereditary after murdering his rivals. Urron, Urrathon, Urragon - they sound pretty similar as well as the pronunciation of Euron.

[Matthew.]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Quaithe doesn't tell her anything about Marwyn which seems an important omission.  

Yes, Marwyn might have been omitted as a part of a 'riddle' that was more political than mystical; a list of people that are to be distrusted, with Marwyn conveniently left out. However, that comes with some asterisks:

-Marwyn could be the perfumed seneschal (he may have served as seneschal in the Citadel, but I don't know whether he'd qualify as 'perfumed')
-Marwyn was left out because he does, in fact, have Dany's best interests in mind
-Alternately, he is not in league with Quaithe, but the end point of his 'guidance' would not undermine whatever Quaithe is pushing Dany toward

Looking at Quentyn and Tyrion, they are not necessarily dangerous to Dany, but they do want to co-opt her cause for earthly/selfish reasons; given that one of Quaithe's appearances directly follows Dany's dream of burning an ice-armored version of Robert's army on the Trident, it may be that Quaithe doesn't want Dany to become distracted from her true purpose ("remember who you are, remember what you were made to be").
____

As to the shadowbinder question, it might be noted that Marwyn is said to have spent 8 years in the far east, mapping, gathering lore, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders. That being the case, it may be that Marwyn and his acolytes have some amount of that magical lore at their disposal, so I think theories that Quaithe's identity, interests, and physical location are to be found "in house," as BC put it, are not incompatible with her having legitimate sorcery.

Edit: As a different take on the above, it may also be that Quaithe is not among Marwyn's Oldtown coterie, but that her and Marywn still know one another. Could Quaithe be one of the shadowbinders Marwyn studied under? Did her guidance play a role in Marwyn coming to understand the glass candles?

The question is whether or not Quaithe being "of the Shadow" - with the masks established as an element of Shadow Man/Woman culture in Dany's aGoT chapters - is a convenient persona that allows her to go about masked without that fact being too noteworthy (particularly in a place like Qarth), while the mask is actually obscuring an identity--particularly, obscuring it from the reader. Perhaps not, but I don't think it's a fruitless line of pursuit.