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Varysblackfyre321

Is Ned Stark really that honorble?

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It can be. In how he goes about it. Lying to his sovereign over his house's seizure of his wife's brother is not. It is pragmatic.

It is also honourable, he is taking the blame for the actions of his wife and the Riverland men she used. 

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Yes. We can presume. We don't know what for sure Ned promised.

We also don't know that he is not in fact Ned's bastard. My original response was to someone who assumed that he was not Ned's sons. 

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure having just learned he'd been made a cuck by his wife's own brother for 3 years-and Ned is at fault Cersi was able to kill him would get Robert even while he's in a forgiving mood to feel betrayed and hateful of Ned.

How was Ned at fault? Ned does not learn the truth till after Robert has gone hunting. All he has is suspicions. 

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He allowed a woman who'd just confessed to him to have plotted to murder the king,

Allowed her to do what? Robert was away. What did you expect Ned to do?

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

whose planned on getting her inchest born bastards on the throne the chance to flee-the honorble thing would be to have locked her and her children up until his next confrontation 

He does not the power to do that. He is still an outsider to Kings Landing while Cersei has been the Queen close to two decades. Ned had just been attacked by Cersei's brother and the King's response was to order Ned to make peace with him. 

Ned was categorically not in a position to arrest the Queen and the Royal Children. 

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

  with Robert and allow him to decide what is to be done.

Sure. In a perfect world he would have told Robert on his death bed rather than spare his feelings. But that was the only time were Robert was actually in the capital and Ned knew the truth. He choose wrongly and I'd agree, he put his best friend's feeling over honour. 

This hardly makes him a dishonourable person by the standards of the series. He stll quite clearly belongs in the top tier of honourable people we have met in the series. 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is honourable, he is taking the blame for the actions of his wife and the Riverland men she used. 

Yeah no. Is it the moral thing? You can honestly argue such as well as pragmatic; but lying to your king to absolve another having the rightful blame placed upon them for their possible felonious actions is not honorble given his context.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

that he is not in fact Ned's bastard. My original response was to someone who assumed that he was not Ned's sons. 

I concede that.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How was Ned at fault? Ned does not learn the truth till after Robert has gone hunting. All he has is suspicions. 

And he has failed to relay those suspicions to his liege lord to be more on guard.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He does not the power to do that. He is still an outsider to Kings Landing while Cersei has been the Queen close to two decades. Ned had just been attacked by Cersei's brother and the King's response was to order Ned to make peace with him. 

Ned was categorically not in a position to arrest the Queen and the Royal Children. 

He can go up to Renly(whose shown no love for the lanisters), ask for a couple dozen gold cloaks and take them(the queen and her children), into custody. Until then actually send out a messenger with what Ned had found out. Hell even if there was no Assasaination what he'd be doing by warning a woman who he has reason to believe has plotted to murder the king-a quick heads up it'd still be dishonorable.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

 

Sure. In a perfect world he would have told Robert on his death bed rather than spare his feelings. But that was the only time were Robert was actually in the capital and Ned knew the truth. He choose wrongly and I'd agree, he put his best friend's feeling over honour. 

This hardly makes him a dishonourable person by the standards of the series. He stll quite clearly belongs in the top tier of honourable people we have met in the series. 

Oh no he's not dishonorable-he just belongs in the midtier in my account. Not particularly honorble nor dishonorable. Just somewhere in between.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Ned died because he got littlefingered 

Only because he tried to put Stannis on the throne.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As far as lying to your king or rebelling against your king. On those yes, i think those are shared by every culture as wrong. Unless you win in the case of the rebellion. Then you can paint your self as a hero. 

Some cultures don't have kings-the Wildlings for instance.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah no. Is it the moral thing? You can honestly argue such as well as pragmatic; but lying to your king to absolve another having the rightful blame placed upon them for their possible felonious actions is not honorble given his context.

It is not just another, it is his wife and partner. As wrong as Ned was, he was righteous in his belief that his wife had and the Riverland subjects had done the correct thing and he took it upon himself to take the blame. Personally I saw that as the honourable thing to do, even if it was pretty dumb. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And he has failed to relay those suspicions to his liege lord to be more on guard.

When should he have relayed those suspicions? 

Ned only realises the truth while Robert is away hunting

When Pycelle was gone, Ned called for a cup of honeyed wine. That clouded the mind as well, yet not as badly. He needed to be able to think. A thousand times, he asked himself what Jon Arryn might have done, had he lived long enough to act on what he'd learned. Or perhaps he had acted, and died for it.
It was queer how sometimes a child's innocent eyes can see things that grown men are blind to. Someday, when Sansa was grown, he would have to tell her how she had made it all come clear for him. He's not the least bit like that old drunken king, she had declared, angry and unknowing, and the simple truth of it had twisted inside him, cold as death. This was the sword that killed Jon Arryn, Ned thought then, and it will kill Robert as well, a slower death but full as certain. Shattered legs may heal in time, but some betrayals fester and poison the soul.
 
Ned is injured at this point, the majority of his men elsewhere and his wife had just arrested one Lannister while he had been in a fight with another. Was he really supposed to send a messenger telling the King that his daughter had made him realise the truth? Or was it more sensible to do as Ned had planned and wait till the King returned and explain in person?
 
1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

He can go up to Renly(whose shown no love for the lanisters), ask for a couple dozen gold cloaks and take them(the queen and her children), into custody. Until then actually send out a messenger with what Ned had found out.

He did not have control of the Gold Cloaks till he asked Littlefinger to bribe them and Renly was away with Robert for the hunting trip. 

 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Oh no he's not dishonorable-he just belongs in the midtier in my account. Not particularly honorble nor dishonorable. Just somewhere in between.

Mid tier? Come on! There is a few hundred, at least, characters in the series. He is easily in the top 20% if not top 10%. While I don't think he is the most honourable person, the fact that his name is almost synonymous with honour should be a decent indicator of his character

"You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move"

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Ned Stark a traitor? Not bloody likely. The Long Summer will come again before that one would besmirch his precious honor."

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I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty

 

These quotes are from Jorah, Littlefinger and Stannis, three men who were not exactly fans of Ned. So while there are times he did questionable acts, overall he was an honourable man. 

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is not just another, it is his wife and partner. As wrong as Ned was, he was righteous in his belief that his wife had and the Riverland subjects had done the correct thing and he took it upon himself to take the blame. Personally I saw that as the honourable thing to do, even if it was pretty dumb. 

Wives are not partners in this society; Ned is Caitlyn's master. Robert is Ned's king so therefore he is Ned's master.. When he(Robert) demands the reason for why members of  his vassal's family have accosted his wive's(the Queen's). If she is guilty of a crime she needs to face the appropriate judgment of the crown for  her misdeed. 

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
 
Ned is injured at this point, the majority of his men elsewhere and his wife had just arrested one Lannister while he had been in a fight with another. Was he really supposed to send a messenger telling the King that his daughter had made him realise the truth? Or was it more sensible to do as Ned had planned and wait till the King returned and explain in person?

Former of course. There has already been an attempt on the king's life alerting him immediately of this threat should have been the imperative. Robert would come back immediately and this case could be be settled. At the very least not take anything from his Laninster squires that could put him jepordary. I was under the impression Renly had been held back. I concede that.

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mid tier? Come on! There is a few hundred, at least, characters in the series. He is easily in the top 20% if not top 10%. While I don't think he is the most honourable person, the fact that his name is almost synonymous with honour should be a decent indicator of his character

Again Jorah was a slaver who bankrupted his house to cater to his trophy wife's lavish lifestyle.

What he says on honor amounts to very little.

Stannis knows Ned by reputation mostly: doubtless his feelings would turn gradually more sour toward the idea of the man being honorble if he learned of what Ned tried to do with Cersi.

Little finger is saying what he needs to say to manipulate Sansa. Whether he actually believes it we don't know.

And Dany thinks he's no better than a dog utterly devoid of honor; other people's opinion on someone having a particular quality doesn't mean they actually have it. 

Tyrion is seen as outright dastardly-evil by the majority of people in Westeroes for what had been found guilty of(regicide) as well kinslaying of the worst kinf((patricide). Doesn't mean he is.

Ned is normal.

We've seen plenty of those who would be deemed honorble-some worse morally (imo) definitely and some better.

Hes a really decent guy given his context-especially given his context. 

But for honor he's shown he's put secondary always to whatever first jives what he thinks is right for his loved ones as well what personally feels "moral". 

Being "honorble" in a feudal society isn't something that we should necessarily see as a positive; for what is "honorble" in such a society can often time be immoral or not really that commendable or condemnedbale (sleep with a girl marry her).

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wives are not partners in this society;

Of course they are. When Ned becomes Hand he leaves Cat in charge of the North in his absence. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ned is Caitlyn's master.

Sure, I never claimed they were equal. You don't have to be equal to be a partner. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert is Ned's king so therefore he is Ned's master..

Well that is debatable as one of the themes of the series is which oaths are more important. Jaime says it eloquently, Walder selfsvvingly but Ned's actions, towards his 'nephew' and wife would suggest that his oaths to his family come before that of his king. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

When he(Robert) demands the reason for why members of  his vassal's family have accosted his wive's(the Queen's). If she is guilty of a crime she needs to face the appropriate judgment of the crown for  her misdeed. 

Sure. Ned's conflicted but he was honour bound to pick his family over his King. Others may have picked the other and been correct to do so. There is honour in both choice. It is entirely subjective which you think was the most honourable one, I'm not trying to change your opinion on the matter, just explaining my own. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Former of course. There has already been an attempt on the king's life alerting him immediately of this threat should have been the imperative.

When? Which attempt?

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert would come back immediately and this case could be be settled. I was under the impression Renly had been held back. I concede that.

What would Ned have said to bring Robert back? Who would he have used?

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again Jorah was a slaver who bankrupted his house to cater to his trophy wife's lavish lifestyle.

eh? What does that have to do with his claim? Are only honourable people allowed to call people honourable?

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What he says on honor amounts to very little.

It is a frame of reference. Jorah does not like Ned, but he does know pretty well so his character assessment of the man seems fair. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis knows Ned by reputation mostly: 

Exactly. In Westeros his reputation is that of an exceedingly honourable person. How do you think Ned has gained that reputation?

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Little finger is saying what he needs to say to manipulate Sansa. Whether he actually believes it we don't know.

That quote is Littlefinger to Ned. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And Dany thinks he's no better than a dog utterly devoid of honor; other people's opinion on someone having a particular quality doesn't mean they actually have it. 

Who do you think is a better judge of Ned's character, Jorah or Dany?

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tyrion is seen as outright dastardly-evil by the majority of people in Westeroes for what had been found guilty of(regicide) as well kinslaying of the worst kinf((patricide). Doesn't mean he is.

Does it not? He was willing to torture his own nephew simply to make a point to Cersei, he wants to pit Nephew and Niece against each other in civil war which would result in one of their deaths (as well as thousands of others), he has a man turned into stew, rapes a woman and threatens to kill his cousin Lancel. Oh and not only wannts to murder his sister but rape her as well. 

Tyrion is a hugely entertaining character, but his reputation is deserved in Westeros. 

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ned is normal.

Not from what we have seen. 

He is above normal. He is more honourable than his King Robert, his peers Tywin, Mace, Renly, Balon and Hoster. I'd say roughly the same as Doran and we simply don't know enough about Jon Arryn. 

Of the other North Lords he is clearly more honourable than Lords Umber, Bolton, Manderly and Lady Dustin. Roughly the same as Karstark (though I conceded that is debatable) and we don't know enough about the other lords. 

On a POV basis I'd say less so than Brienne and Davos, possibly Cat,  bizarrely Victarion,  Areo  and Cressen

Far more so than Tyrion. Jaime. Cersei. Arrianne, Theon, Asha, Quentyn (who I have always thought of as Ned jnr), Barristan, Sam, Aeron, Arys, Kevan, Merret, Pate, Varamyr and Chett. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course they are. When Ned becomes Hand he leaves Cat in charge of the North in his absence. 

More a servent: none of his male heirs are legal adults yet so he's given the task of governing winterfell in his absence. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

 

Sure, I never claimed they were equal. You don't have to be equal to be a partner. 

A person can't both be the master and partner of someone. A partner requires some notion of equal footing. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well that is debatable as one of the themes of the series is which oaths are more important. Jaime says it eloquently, Walder selfsvvingly but Ned's actions, towards his 'nephew' and wife would suggest that his oaths to his family come before that of his king. 

His oaths to his wife doesn't not cover from trying to absolve of any cupabilty from her possibly unlawful actions.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. Ned's conflicted but he was honour bound to pick his family over his King. Others may have picked the other and been correct to do so. There is honour in both choice. It is entirely subjective which you think was the most honourable one, I'm not trying to change your opinion on the matter, just explaining my own

Not really. In the context of his society his king, the law, his oaths to the gods to serve Robert triumph over any paternal obligation he may feel to his family. If Jorah had came back to Westeroes the old bear wouldn't try to protect his son from lawful punishment; just the opposite he'd actively urge his son to turn himself in and if need be arrest him. 

Honor is a useless word. It's one of those things that can vary from person to person society to society. I'm not saying your interpretation of what is honor is wrong; either doubtful everyone would agree with it or go completely against it.

I'm just saying in Ned's society what he has actually done doesn't show him to be exceptionally honorble by its standards. 

Which often times are simply perverse in my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Who do you think is a better judge of Ned's character, Jorah or Dany?

How about their word on the matter on who Ned's honor is all together worthless? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

h? What does that have to do with his claim? Are only honourable people allowed to call people honourable

He shouldn't be used a point of reference for whoever is honorble-the man is utterly bereft of it so his opinion means very little. He was caught trying to sell people and the mere fact Ned wanted to punish him for committing one of the worst crimes in Westeroes seemed to grill into his head this idea of Ned being a honor paragon-instead of the idea maybe he's just a really really bad guy and Ned did what semi-decent lord paramount would do to a vassal whose not really that powerful and has been caught doing something absolutely against societal mores. Did he cook people into soup?

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does it not? He was willing to torture his own nephew simply to make a point to Cersei, he wants to pit Nephew and Niece against each other in civil war which would result in one of their deaths (as well as thousands of others), he has a man turned into stew, rapes a woman and threatens to kill his cousin Lancel. Oh and not only wannts to murder his sister but rape her as well. 

Torturing Tommen was a bluff to which Tyrion wouldn't have followed through. He threatens Lancel sure to get the boy as a spy on Cersi. Which he needed. And can't fault him for wanting to marry Cersi the rape however if he is serious is a step too far to be sure. He mulled over the idea of trying to place Mycerlla on throne; realized it was a bad idea that was doomed for failure. Are you talking about the slave he had sex with?  And Symon. I can't justify that. It was on Tyrion he could have either paid the man and sent Shae away as to not be a liability or murder him. He chose wrong.

The whole rumble to which Cersi had tried to get Robert to debut in? 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

That quote is Littlefinger to Ned. 

Sorry of course. Whatever he needs to manipulate Ned. 

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

normal. He is more honourable than his King Robert, his peers Tywin, Mace, Renly, Balon and Hoster. I'd say roughly the same as Doran and we simply don't know enough about Jon

Well Renly and Mace as well as Tywin care not for honor to begin with; they are exceptionally low in the amount they are willing to disregard it. Balon? How is not honorble given his culture's standards?

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of the other North Lords he is clearly more honourable than Lords Umber, Bolton, Manderly and Lady Dustin. Roughly the same as Karstark (though I conceded that is debatable) and we don't know enough about the other lords. 

Bolton certainly. I wager the rest is debatable. 

And Asha, Sam, and Kevan and Barristan? where are you getting they're lower than Ned?

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Exactly. In Westeros his reputation is that of an exceedingly honourable person. How do you think Ned has gained that reputation 

By being a Stark and being respectful enough to the lords he's conducted buisness with as well not be blantantly corrupt(not that anyone in the north could buy him off if he could be bought off)? 

 

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What would Ned have said to bring Robert back? Who would he have used?

"Somone is trying to kill you return immediately" and Varys and Little finger has shown not to be entirely reliant on the queen; doubtless they could send a man if he has none of his own to spare. And again giving Cersi the heads up in the first place is already dishonorable given their context with or without knowing of the looming attempt on Robert's life.

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9 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

But I still agree with you. Stannis, it seems to me, is better deserved for the seat of Honorable than Ned is. But I don't ever see him nominated. Stannis is Ned's honor without the stupid mercy. For him, everything is a shove, so if he were in charge, no pushes would have accumulate to shove the kingdom into the long night!

Stannis looked disgusted. “Your father was a stubborn man as well. Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow".

;)

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

By being a Stark and being respectful enough to the lords he's conducted buisness with as well not be blantantly corrupt(not that anyone in the north could buy him off if he could be bought off)? 

 

"Somone is trying to kill you return immediately" and Varys and Little finger has shown not to be entirely reliant on the queen; doubtless they could send a man if he has none of his own to spare. And again giving Cersi the heads up in the first place is already dishonorable given their context with or without knowing of the looming attempt on Robert's life.

You are aware that the Stark's before Ned did not have a reputation of being honourable right? Simply 'being a Stark' is not enough for Ned to cultivate a kingdom wide reputation as an honourable man, so much so that his honour is acknowledged by both people who like him and people who dislike him.

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I expect that, by the time we get new content to discuss, the forum will have gone almost full circle, displaying in the front page topics such as "Is Ned Stark really that horrible?"

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6 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I expect that, by the time we get new content to discuss, the forum will have gone almost full circle, displaying in the front page topics such as "Is Ned Stark really that horrible?"

"Rorge: is he really the one true king and protector of the realm?"

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Ned Stark was honorable to a flaw. He had the absolute obedience in the North as far as the eye could see but in KIng's Landing, he was flanked by two horrible people who were dishonorable and held power and influence. Queen Cersei and Littlefinger, Master of Coin. He had no true allies as Robert was fat,drunk and stupid, Ser Barristan was confused and useless at the moment Ned needed him but the one that really bit him was thanks to his ignorant wife, Cat, he thought he could trust Littlefinger and it cost him his life.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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14 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Ned died because he got littlefingered 

Yup, that he did. 

Baelish has done more to take down the establishment than anybody.  

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6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

You are aware that the Stark's before Ned did not have a reputation of being honourable right? Simply 'being a Stark' is not enough for Ned to cultivate a kingdom wide reputation as an honourable man, so much so that his honour is acknowledged by both people who like him and people who dislike him.

I don't think that's true. Like where are you getting this idea before Ned the Starks(having justly ruled for thousands of years and have been played more than competent  lord paramounts of the north since), didn't have a reputation of being honorable?

And it kinda is. All he really has to do is be remotely competent at his job and not uber corrupt as well and BOOM the guy's honor is unquestionably sound.

Reputation isn't everything.

 

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7 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Stannis looked disgusted. “Your father was a stubborn man as well. Honor, he called it. Well, honor has its costs, as Lord Eddard learned to his sorrow".

;)

Kinda always bugged me Stannis couldn't show at least some sympathy to Jon here-he knows the boy can't do what he's asking without having to break his oaths-something I should think Stannis of all people should respect. But then again perhaps he views oaths to the gods as entirely worthless.

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51 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't think that's true. Like where are you getting this idea before Ned the Starks(having justly ruled for thousands of years and have been played more than competent  lord paramounts of the north since), didn't have a reputation of being honorable?

And it kinda is. All he really has to do is be remotely competent at his job and not uber corrupt as well and BOOM the guy's honor is unquestionably sound.

Reputation isn't everything.

 

Well, Brandon son of Rickard isn't that honorable. You can ask Barbrey Ryswell about that.

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