Khal Jhaqo

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If Rhaego is alive he's a half dragon/half man hybrid, with a tail and wings. He is the Lizard King. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

18 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

And the key thing is Dany has Drogon with her, and I take it as very symbolic and foretelling that Jhago, the guy who Dany has sworn revenge on, arrives to see Dany and Drogon chowing down on horseflesh at the end of ADWD.  Dany will most likely go along willingly with Jhago to Dosh Khaleen and when the time is right have Drogon roast the entire Khal leadership leaving her to take over the Dothraki.  

Oh maybe just select khals. But in the end, the Dothraki would rally behind her. They would only have things to gain. Think about it. Dothraki are nearly unbeatable once mounted. And the dragons would provide aerial support. This would be the most formidable contemporary army in the world. 

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

My bet is that Rhaego is either in Jhago's khalasar, or he is in Asshai (probably with Quaithe).

You are going to lose a lot of money methinks. 

[Light a wight tonight]

19 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not so sure about that. In the scene:

So Jorah is not hearing this from Mirri, but from "the women", which I think would include Irri and Jhiqui and perhaps Doreah. Jhiqui, in fact, confirms that Rhaego never lived before Jorah does. So unless all these women are simple taking Mirri at her word, then I think it's safe to assume that they saw Rhaego's remains first-hand.

And I feel sorry for Jhaquo if he thinks he can submit to Dany to be on the winning side.

 

Or, Jorah is also lying and is upset because of whatever means were used to make him do that. Or he reports accurately what "the women" said, but they have been deceived or are lying. Mirri is a sorceress; she can influence unsophisticated young women. The information is third-hand by now. May or may not be trustworthy.

As to Jhaqo, he can be guilty of self-deception as easily as any other character. We don't see any Dothraki (males, anyhow) who are deeply introspective. And I'd call being on the side of the Stallion that Mounts the Earth destiny rather than just being on the winning side, especially since the losing side might get ground to powder.

[rotting sea cow]

23 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Someone's death was needed. Could have been Mirri's since her immolation and the hatching were pretty close.

Drogo, Mirri and Rhaego where necessary. Others says that Viserys death was also needed, etc.

23 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I'd say Khal Jhaqo's men finding Dany was fortuitous. In Meereen she was believed dead, so why would Jhaqo have men out looking for her?

The Dothraki don't keep a hotline with Meeren. Jhaqo's khalasar was likely contacted by the Yunkai to bring down Danenery, they reportedly brought a host of slaves to sell, but Dothraki do things in their own time for their own motives, so there is no guarantee that they will follow the Yunkai and not do something else.

I find however interesting that Jhaqo was operating very near of Drogon's lair and if they were hunting a dragon, no rain of arrow preceded the meeting. It looks to me that they knew what they were going to find. Also Khal Pono is also operating in a region of interest, near Volantis and there might have been more sights of a dragon at the Sorrows, besides Tyrion's.

I like the idea that the Dosh Khaleen are behind these movements because it can save Dany a lot of time in reuniting the khalasars, speeding up a bit the timeline.

 

[UnFit Finlay]

18 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's why when Jhago took Rhaego, sort of adopted him, then many of Drogo's Dothraki decided to join his newly formed khalasar, and left with him, on the next day after blood magic ritual. And that kidnapping was first out of three treasons - the one for blood. Rhaego is son of Drogo, and Jhago was Drogo's bloodrider, thus to him Rhaego is blood of my blood. He kidnapped the baby, and it was done for the sake of Jhago's blood/relative.

 

Nah. He wasn't Drogo's bloodrider. They are all dead, as they are sworn to do when their Khal dies. You're possibly thinking of Jhogo, who is one of Dany's bloodriders.

Quote

Rhaego's description, given to Dany by Mirri, was a lie. Everything that she told about him and his birth was a lie. The baby was taken away by Dothraki, and Mirri, and Jorah both knew about it. That's why Jorah was ashamed, and why he couldn't face Dany, when he was supposed to lie to her, about what happened with her baby. He couldn't do it, so Mirri had to step up, and lie in his place. Also the reason why Jorah said to Dany, not to go in the same direction, as Dothraki went, specifically Jhago, because that way she could have found out, that her son isn't dead, and that actually he was taken by Jhago.

I think you're giving far far far too much credit to Jhago, who we have only ever seen as a murderous raping savage who preys upon the weak. Isn't it more likely that Jorah is simply being realistic and that Jhaqo, Khal Pono and the rest of the Dothraki will happily kill Dany and her people if they should chance upon them? I mean, they do it to everyone but I'm sure Jhaqo and Mago would take particular delight in raping and murdering Dany.

Aside from that, I really don't see what Rhaego being alive would add to the story. There are already so many "secret" Targaryens out there that they currently outnumber most of the other great Houses.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 3/30/2018 at 1:37 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Bit of what-if. We see that at the end Danaerys is confronted with Jhaqo's men. Looks bad for Dany. But with Martin ending book with characters in precarious predicaments only to change things around in the next chapter it's a good bet that things are not all that bad.

So, a possible scenario: Mirri Maz Duur was completely untruthful when describing Rhaego's birth. He was born normal and healthy, and was spirited off by whomever and wound up fostered by Jhaqo, who believed in the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy. Then when he, or his men, encounter Dany out on the lone prairie instead of treating her badly he honors her as the mother of the Stallion. Jhaqo has the biggest Khalassar at this point, thus the most prestige, so he'd have the best chance of uniting the Dothraki behind Dany.

This might appear a bit sappy, but for Martin it could be a huge time-saver since he has at least two more books to churn out and needs to cut out a lot of minor stuff and get to the important story lines.

Wow, that would be a shocker. For that reason alone, I could see him doing it. But I think he gets more out of having The Dragon take Rhaego's place, so that Daenerys is Mother of Dragons. (I think she will give birth to another dragon, though.)

As far as what what happens next in Daenerys's arc, I think the show spoiled it. 

[Light a wight tonight]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Aside from that, I really don't see what Rhaego being alive would add to the story. There are already so many "secret" Targaryens out there that they currently outnumber most of the other great Houses.

As a three-year-old Rhaego can't personally have much impact. He would be a catalyst, somewhat as Rickon is to the North, someone to unite behind.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Nah. He wasn't Drogo's bloodrider. They are all dead, as they are sworn to do when their Khal dies. You're possibly thinking of Jhogo, who is one of Dany's bloodriders.

No, I'm not mistaking him with Dany's Jhogo. Khal Jhago previously was one of Drogo's Ko, which is also something similar to bloodrider. The only difference is that after Khal's death, his bloodriders must die with him, while the rest of his Ko, will be fighting each other, to replace dead Khal. Dany's three, at various places in the books, are called both - Ko and bloodriders.

Even though Jhago was only Drogo's Ko and not his bloodrider, if he stole Dany's baby, then it still could be considered as a treason for blood. Because Rhaego is half-Dothraki, thus he has same blood with them, so maybe other Dothraki decided not to leave him with Dany.

Found this:

Quote

“Jhogo, to you I give the silver-handled whip that was my bride gift, and name you ko, and ask your oath, that you will live and die as blood of my blood, riding at my side to keep me safe from harm.”

~

“Aggo,” Dany called, paying no heed to Jhogo’s words. If I look back I am lost. “To you I give the dragonbone bow that was my bride gift.” It was double-curved, shiny black and exquisite, taller than she was. “I name you ko, and ask your oath, that you should live and die as blood of my blood, riding at my side to keep me safe from harm.”

Aggo accepted the bow with lowered eyes. “I cannot say these words. Only a man can lead a khalasar or name a ko.”

Or maybe the baby was kidnapped by Quaithe, who is maybe Shiera Seastar. And Rhaego is half-dragonblood, thus his kidnapping by Shiera, who is also a dragonblood, could be also considered as a treason for blood. And when Quaithe said to Dany, that there's truth in Asshai, she mean that Dany will find there her supposedly dead son.

Or maybe Rhaego is really dead.

The main reason, why I think, that Rhaego is alive, is because supposedly there should be three dragonriders. And I'm more inclined to believe in a possibility, that Rhaego is alive, than in the possibility that aside from Dany and Jon Snow, the other dragonrider will be Tyrion Lannister, or Euron Greyjoy, or Ben Plumm.

Though if that part of a prophecy, is just Rhaegar's own misconception, and there will be no need for all three dragons to have riders, then probably Rhaego is dead. Though even in case, if three dragonriders are not a necessity, it still doesn't mean, that Rhaego is definitely dead.

3 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Aside from that, I really don't see what Rhaego being alive would add to the story. There are already so many "secret" Targaryens out there that they currently outnumber most of the other great Houses.

If Rhaego is alive, then he is one of three heads of the dragon.

There's not that many secret Targaryens. Only one - Jon Snow. All the others are not descendants of Aerys II, and according to woods witch's prophecy, the promised saviour will be from this line. Dany is Aerys' daughter, while both Jon and Rhaego are his grandsons. And fAegon is mummer's dragon, so he is probably a Blackfyre, and not son of Rhaegar.

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I find however interesting that Jhaqo was operating very near of Drogon's lair

Maybe it's the opposite? - If Rhaego is alive, and he was kidnapped by Dothraki, then he could be in Jhago's khalasar. And thus Drogon made his lair near that settlement, because he is attracted there by Rhaego's dragonblood. Same as he was attracted to blood of Ben Plumm. Though Rhaego's dragon blood is much purer, thus it's even more alluring for dragons.

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Drogo, Mirri and Rhaego where necessary.

You're counting wrong. Rhaego wasn't even in that fire, which Dany lighted for life (first out of three fires, from the Undying prophecies).

Lives of three dragons, that hatched on Drogo's funeral pyre, in exchange of three lives, that were burned in that pyre - the stallion, Mirri, Drogo.

Quote

Rakharo chose a stallion from the small herd that remained to them; he was not the equal of Khal Drogo’s red, but few horses were. In the center of the square, Aggo fed him a withered apple and dropped him in an instant with an axe blow between the eyes.

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. “It is not enough to kill a horse,” she told Dany. “By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child’s ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you.”

“I am tired of the maegi’s braying,” Dany told Jhogo. He took his whip to her, and after that the godswife kept silent.

Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find.

~

She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-and-stars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs.

~

“You will not hear me scream,” Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing.

“I will,” Dany said, “but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life.” Mirri Maz Duur opened her mouth, but made no reply

~

Dany took the torch from Aggo’s hand and thrust it between the logs.

Three dragons in exchange of three bodies, burned on that pyre:

1. Dany herself smothered Drogo with a pillow.
2. Then on her order Rakharo killed that stallion.
3. And Dany herself lighter the pyre, and thus has burned Mirri alive.

First on funeral pyre she placed black egg - Drogon, for Drogo's life, who died first out of three. She placed it near Drogo's heart, and then she named black dragon by her husband's name. And later she became his dragonrider, and this dragon was always dearest to her heart.

Second placed on funeral pyre was green egg - Rhaegel, for stallion's life, that was killed next after Drogo.

Isn't this kind of funny? - that horse's death paid for life of a dragon, who will be mount of the Stallion

Third was placed cream and gold egg, Viseryon for Mirri's life. Placing of the egg - between Drogo's legs, is a hint to identity of third dragonrider - Jon Snow, who will be Dany's third "mount", i.e. her third husband, from the prophecy of the Undying, and blue flower on the wall of ice, from bride of fire trilogy of visions. Viserys called himself the last dragon, while actually the last male Targaryen is Jon Snow. Thus Viseryon will be Jon's dragon, and Jon will be the last dragonrider.

Unless GRRM has intentionally placed in the book all those fake clues, to mislead readers, then all three dragons will eventually be mounted - Drogon by Dany, next after that Rhaegel by Rhaego, and then Viseryon by Jon Snow. If those clues are not fake, then three heads of the dragon are Dany, Rhaego, and Jon, all three are decsendants of Jaehaerys II, to whom the woods witch predicted birth of the promised Prince.

[UnFit Finlay]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

As a three-year-old Rhaego can't personally have much impact. He would be a catalyst, somewhat as Rickon is to the North, someone to unite behind.

Surely the Dragons, if not Dany herself, fills that role? The Dothraki follow strength after all, not parentage. What's stronger than dragons? She also ticks the required boxes for others, who might be more reluctant to fight for the son of a monster like Drogo, who has been raised by a monster like Jhaqo, and who has been prophesied to, you know, "mount the world".

Rickon works for the North because the Starks are thought to be destroyed with all the males dead and the women married to the enemy. Rhaego though? There's nothing he can add to the story that Dany doesn't already provide. It'd just be another reason for her to delay coming to Westeros. I mean, after all, it's a pretty life changing event, and she'd need to get to know her son and so on. 

For me, the time for a twist like that is long past. The pieces are all in place. It's just getting them to actually DO something now.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Bit of what-if. We see that at the end Danaerys is confronted with Jhaqo's men. Looks bad for Dany. But with Martin ending book with characters in precarious predicaments only to change things around in the next chapter it's a good bet that things are not all that bad.

So, a possible scenario: Mirri Maz Duur was completely untruthful when describing Rhaego's birth. He was born normal and healthy, and was spirited off by whomever and wound up fostered by Jhaqo, who believed in the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy. Then when he, or his men, encounter Dany out on the lone prairie instead of treating her badly he honors her as the mother of the Stallion. Jhaqo has the biggest Khalassar at this point, thus the most prestige, so he'd have the best chance of uniting the Dothraki behind Dany.

This might appear a bit sappy, but for Martin it could be a huge time-saver since he has at least two more books to churn out and needs to cut out a lot of minor stuff and get to the important story lines.

This is GRRM 'S way of getting Daenerys going to Westeros, Jhago is taking her to the mother of the mountains to be the other wives and mothers of dead khals , it is they who determine where the khalasars are going to go next .

[UnFit Finlay]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, I'm not mistaking him with Dany's Jhogo. Khal Jhago previously was one of Drogo's Ko, which is also something similar to bloodrider. The only difference is that after Khal's death, his bloodriders must die with him, while the rest of his Ko, will be fighting each other, to replace dead Khal. Dany's three, at various places in the books, are called both - Ko and bloodriders.

That's a pretty big difference though. Bloodriders are implicitly loyal because they've sworn to die with their Khal. Ko's really don't care. I mean Drogo wasn't even dead when Jhaqo, Pono and the rest abandoned him. His falling just gave them an opportunity to be Khals themselves.

Hell, one of the first things Jhaqo did when he realised that Drogo was powerless was to gang rape Eroeh - despite her being under Dany, and thus Drogo's, protection. That is not the action of someone who considered Drogo a relative. It's a pretty blatant "Screw You!."

Quote

Even though Jhago was only Drogo's Ko and not his bloodrider, if he stole Dany's baby, then it still could be considered as a treason for blood. Because Rhaego is half-Dothraki, thus he has same blood with them, so maybe other Dothraki decided not to leave him with Dany.

When have the Dothraki men ever cared about other Dothraki? They care about strength. That's why they accept Jorah, the landless exile, but mock and revile Viserys, the brother of their Khalassi. It's also why Dany's original Khalasar was made up of sick old men, women and children. Blood or not, if you can't fight they've got no use for you.

Besides is it really a treason when you had no reason to ever trust the person? Jhaqo was never kind to Dany, like Ko Pono was, and she immediately accepts that Pono will kill her now that he is a Khal.

Quote

There's not that many secret Targaryens. Only one - Jon Snow. All the others are not descendants of Aerys II, and according to woods witch's prophecy, the promised saviour will be from this line. Dany is Aerys' daughter, while both Jon and Rhaego are his grandsons. And fAegon is mummer's dragon, so he is probably a Blackfyre, and not son of Rhaegar.

Blackfyre, Brightflame or pure blooded Targaryen, a dragon is still a dragon. It's also interesting that that the Mummer's Dragon accusation came from Quaithe warning her that he'd come to Meereen, which he never actually did.

Anyway my point is that, real or fake, we've JUST had someone appear claiming to be a Targaryen Prince that was believed to have died as an infant. Jon's is upcoming and will likely be a total contrast to the Aegon reveal but Rhaego? Wouldn't that just feel excessive and repetitive?

As for the prophecy - As far as I can see it predicts a saviour - single. The Dragon having three heads doesn't even mean that they'll even all get along. I can absolutely see Dany and Aegon killing each other, and their Dragons, leaving Jon to save the realm alone.

[Light a wight tonight]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

 

Blackfyre, Brightflame or pure blooded Targaryen, a dragon is still a dragon. It's also interesting that that the Mummer's Dragon accusation came from Quaithe warning her that he'd come to Meereen, which he never actually did.

Just one point: Quaithe seems to be reporting on events that are current, with short-term predictions based on those, as opposed to what Maggy the Frog does with Cersei. Circumstances can change.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

That's a pretty big difference though. Bloodriders are implicitly loyal because they've sworn to die with their Khal. Ko's really don't care. I mean Drogo wasn't even dead when Jhaqo, Pono and the rest abandoned him. His falling just gave them an opportunity to be Khals themselves.

Hell, one of the first things Jhaqo did when he realised that Drogo was powerless was to gang rape Eroeh - despite her being under Dany, and thus Drogo's, protection. That is not the action of someone who considered Drogo a relative. It's a pretty blatant "Screw You!."

When have the Dothraki men ever cared about other Dothraki? They care about strength. That's why they accept Jorah, the landless exile, but mock and revile Viserys, the brother of their Khalassi. It's also why Dany's original Khalasar was made up of sick old men, women and children. Blood or not, if you can't fight they've got no use for you.

Besides is it really a treason when you had no reason to ever trust the person? Jhaqo was never kind to Dany, like Ko Pono was, and she immediately accepts that Pono will kill her now that he is a Khal.

Blackfyre, Brightflame or pure blooded Targaryen, a dragon is still a dragon. It's also interesting that that the Mummer's Dragon accusation came from Quaithe warning her that he'd come to Meereen, which he never actually did.

Anyway my point is that, real or fake, we've JUST had someone appear claiming to be a Targaryen Prince that was believed to have died as an infant. Jon's is upcoming and will likely be a total contrast to the Aegon reveal but Rhaego? Wouldn't that just feel excessive and repetitive?

As for the prophecy - As far as I can see it predicts a saviour - single. The Dragon having three heads doesn't even mean that they'll even all get along. I can absolutely see Dany and Aegon killing each other, and their Dragons, leaving Jon to save the realm alone.

Good points. 

[UnFit Finlay]

5 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Just one point: Quaithe seems to be reporting on events that are current, with short-term predictions based on those, as opposed to what Maggy the Frog does with Cersei. Circumstances can change.

Oh I agree. I just thought it was worth pointing out that she isn't some wise, infallible prophet or a Deus Ex Machina. She's human, likely using the glass candles to communicate with Dany and possibly spy on others, and is working an angle the same way everyone else in the series is.

Her referring to Aegon as a Mummer's Dragon means as much as Tyrion referring to Jon as Ned Stark's Bastard.

[Light a wight tonight]

51 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Oh I agree. I just thought it was worth pointing out that she isn't some wise, infallible prophet or a Deus Ex Machina. She's human, likely using the glass candles to communicate with Dany and possibly spy on others, and is working an angle the same way everyone else in the series is.

Her referring to Aegon as a Mummer's Dragon means as much as Tyrion referring to Jon as Ned Stark's Bastard.

The term Mummer's Dragon is open to interpretation. IMO the best fit is Aegon as Varys, the Mummer's, tame Targaryen/Blackfyre. That does have significance. Red or black, a dragon is still a dragon.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

It's also interesting that that the Mummer's Dragon accusation came from Quaithe warning her that he'd come to Meereen, which he never actually did.

You're misinterpreting Quaithe's words, what she said, didn't mean that all those people will come to Meereen. It just meant, that Dany will encounter all of them, soon. And Dany doesn't have to be in Meeren, when she will meet them. It wasn't about place, it was about her and them. After her return to Meereen, she will meet Tyrion, and Euron and Moqorro, and after she will go to Westeros, there she will meet fAegon and JonCon.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Kraken - Euron Greyjoy. Dark flame - Summer Islander red priest Moqorro. Lion - Tyrion Lannister. Griffin - Jon Connington. The sun's son - Martell prince that burned. Mummer's dragon - Young Griff/fAegon. Perfumed seneschal - Illyrio (or maybe Varys, though it's unlikely that Varys is both - the mummer and seneschal).

And Quaithe wasn't the only one who predicted coming of fAegon.

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies"

"“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?”

“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”"

That vision about cloth dragon, was from the future. This is those prophecies and visions:

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

In each trilogy of visions, there was one from recent past (prior Dany came to the House of the Undying), one from the future, and one from the more distant past (from times of Robert's Rebellion). This is their chronological order:

1. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name - Rhaegar's death.
2. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire - Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy.
3. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness - little Jon living in Winterfell.
4. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.
5. Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow - Stannis and Melisandre declaring him new Azor Ahai.
6. Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars - dosh khaleen announcing that Dany's child is the Stallion that will mount the world.
7. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly - probably dead Greyjoy. Dany will seize Iron Fleet and will use it to sail to Westeros.
8. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd - after Dany will come to Westeros, probably by that time people will already crown fAegon as King Aegon VI Targaryen (which will be fitting, because if he is a Blackfyre, then his coming to Westeros is a Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres). So Jon Snow will be crowned as Aegon VII Targaryen.
9. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him - distant future, when Rhaego will be already an adult.

3 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

When have the Dothraki men ever cared about other Dothraki? They care about strength.

Ok, though look at this from this angle - we know GRRM's view about prophecies - some things, out of those that were predicted, could be changed, but some are predestinated, they WILL happen, and nothing can prevent them from happening. One of things that can't be prevented is the Second Long Night, and birth of new Azor Ahai. Thought whether this Long Night will ever end, whether Azor Ahai will defeat the Others, isn't predetermined. Birth of the Stallion, and him making all people of the world his herd, is one of those things that will be. And according to prophecy, all of his enemies will be defeated. One way or the other, Rhaego is destined to become ruler of the world.

Thus those Dothraki Khals and Kos can decide, whether they will join him, and become his supporters, or eventually all of them, and all of their people, will be killed by him. So by kidnapping Rhaego from his mother, and raising him in their own khalasar, they chose a middle option - this way they are not his enemies, they are his guardians, people who raised him, and to whom he will be grateful, when he will grow up and become ruler of the world. They won't be his enemies, they will remain being Khals, and rule over their own khalasars. Because the Stallion is Khal of khals. It's like Rhaego's khals is something like Senators, and he is the President, sort of. 

3 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Besides is it really a treason when you had no reason to ever trust the person? Jhaqo was never kind to Dany, like Ko Pono was, and she immediately accepts that Pono will kill her now that he is a Khal.

She never even suspected, that they could have kidnapped her baby, she didn't thought, that they are capable of doing something like this. Not even for a single moment, after she was told that her baby was born dead, and then also in addition to this, his body has vanished, she didn't even once said that it's not true, that she doesn't believe what they say, and she's demanding them to show her the baby. She haven't realised that some Dothraki, for whatever reason, may have kidnapped her baby, and that her maids lied to her about what happened. The treason could be not from kidnappers' side, the traitors could be those that stayed behind - Irri and Jigui. They are also Dothraki, and Drogo was their Khal, they were close to him, and they blamed Dany for what she did to him. So maybe they thought, that the baby shouldn't be left with her, and they let him be taken away. Maybe it was even one of them, that gave the baby to Jhago or Pono. Or maybe some other Dothraki took the baby, to bring him to Vaes Dothrak, to be raised there by dosh khaleen.

Also it was Jorah's own assumption, that after Drogo's death, other Dothraki will want to kill the Stallion. But maybe he was wrong. Maybe for them that baby was sacred. Either way, none of them didn't tried to barge into Dany's tent, and kill her and the baby, when it was born. You can argue that they were afraid to go inside, because they were weary of dark magic, though actually it wasn't even necessary, to come inside that tent, to kill Dany, they could have just set it on fire from the outside. But they didn't. Why?

[UnFit Finlay]

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You're misinterpreting Quaithe's words, what she said, didn't mean that all those people will come to Meereen. It just meant, that Dany will encounter all of them, soon. And Dany doesn't have to be in Meeren, when she will meet them. It wasn't about place, it was about her and them. After her return to Meereen, she will meet Tyrion, and Euron and Moqorro, and after she will go to Westeros, there she will meet fAegon and JonCon.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Kraken - Euron Greyjoy. Dark flame - Summer Islander red priest Moqorro. Lion - Tyrion Lannister. Griffin - Jon Connington. The sun's son - Martell prince that burned. Mummer's dragon - Young Griff/fAegon. Perfumed seneschal - Illyrio (or maybe Varys, though it's unlikely that Varys is both - the mummer and seneschal).

I disgree. She's talking about things coming to Daenerys.  All the others came to Meereen except for Aegon and Connington, who were planning to, until Tyrion talked them out of it. It's also interesting that she groups Tyrion with Connington, who he was originally travelling with. Likewise, the Kraken for me, is Victarion who is travelling with Moqorro and has the ships that Dany needs.

For me, it's far more likely that Quaithe is using the glass candles and other magics to further her own, unknown agenda, than making some iron clad predictions that have to come true.

Quote

 

And Quaithe wasn't the only one who predicted coming of fAegon.

 

That's a fair point. Though, as Light a Wight tonight mentioned "Mummer's Dragon" can have different meanings, and again, a Dragon is still a dragon.

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Thus those Dothraki Khals and Kos can decide, whether they will join him, and become his supporters, or eventually all of them, and all of their people, will be killed by him. So by kidnapping Rhaego from his mother, and raising him in their own khalasar, they chose a middle option - this way they are not his enemies, they are his guardians, people who raised him, and to whom he will be grateful, when he will grow up and become ruler of the world. They won't be his enemies, they will remain being Khals, and rule over their own khalasars. Because the Stallion is Khal of khals. It's like Rhaego's khals is something like Senators, and he is the President, sort of. 

Again. That seems completely unlike the Dothraki to even think in those terms. In fact I'd imagine anybody who suggested it would be mocked for being afraid of a baby and some words.

Seriously. They'd just kill it. It's a baby. It can't hurt them if it's dead.

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She never even suspected, that they could have kidnapped her baby, she didn't thought, that they are capable of doing something like this.

.......?

She's lived with them, rode with them, watched them rape, murder and pillage everywhere they go. She witnessed Drogo casually melt her brothers face off! Yet she doesn't think they are capable of kidnap?

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The treason could be not from kidnappers' side, the traitors could be those that stayed behind - Irri and Jigui. They are also Dothraki, and Drogo was their Khal, they were close to him, and they blamed Dany for what she did to him. So maybe they thought, that the baby shouldn't be left with her, and they let him be taken away. Maybe it was even one of them, that gave the baby to Jhago or Pono. Or maybe some other Dothraki took the baby, to bring him to Vaes Dothrak, to be raised there by dosh khaleen.

With all due respect, you're bordering on fan fiction here. There's no suggestion at all that Irri and Jhiqui have anything but love for Daenerys, or that they were in anyway close to Khal Drogo. He enslaved them. Dany freed them.

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Also it was Jorah's own assumption, that after Drogo's death, other Dothraki will want to kill the Stallion. But maybe he was wrong. Maybe for them that baby was sacred. Either way, none of them didn't tried to barge into Dany's tent, and kill her and the baby, when it was born. You can argue that they were afraid to go inside, because they were weary of dark magic, though actually it wasn't even necessary, to come inside that tent, to kill Dany, they could have just set it on fire from the outside. But they didn't. Why?

It's been a while since I've had a re-read but Dany tried to keep Drogo's condition a secret didn't she? Word might've leaked out but you'd still have to be extremely sure that Drogo was incapable of stopping you before you tried to murder his kid.

Aside from that, I don't think they were particularly bothered.

To them Drogo's strength kept them together and, with him done,  the most pressing issue, at that time, was the division of his Khalasar. Do you go with Pono or Jhaqo? Who gets the best horses, the gold, the best women and so on? Again, one of Mago and Jhaqo's first acts was to rape and murder Eroeh, simply because Drogo had forbidden it. THAT'S what motivates the Dothraki.

We only have Dany's POV and she was unconscious as it was happening but it isn't hard to imagine that it was a complete bloodbath.

Jorah's another factor actually. I could buy him lying to spare Dany pain but wouldn't he tell her after she cast him out? He was desperate for some way, any way, to save himself from exile. Why would he maintain that secret even then? It was one thing in the Dothraki sea but she had a pretty big army at that point.

Ultimately though. It all comes down the fact that Rhaego being alive really wouldn't add anything to the story, and in fact would arguably detract from it. Coming so soon after the reveal of Aegon, and the certain reveal of Jon and, hell, even Rickon as well, the next few books are going to be full of "I can't believe (character) is alive!" as it is without adding another.

[Megorova]

(English isn't my native language, and I don't have time now, to go thru my post, and check it. So probably there's lots of spelling mistakes and typos. Sorry )

36 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Likewise, the Kraken for me, is Victarion who is travelling with Moqorro and has the ships that Dany needs.

I'm constantly forgetting which of Greyjoys had with him Moqorro, and which tied his brother to a ship's prow, as a sacrifice to the Drowned God. I'm just not interested in Ironborn's arc. So the Kraken is the one who picked up Moqorro, whoever he is.

39 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

It's also interesting that she groups Tyrion with Connington, who he was originally travelling with.

And she also grouped together Martell prince and fAegon. Though those two were not near each other at any point.

40 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

For me, it's far more likely that Quaithe is using the glass candles and other magics to further her own, unknown agenda, than making some iron clad predictions that have to come true.

I think she's Shiera Seastar. So her agenda is to put Targaryens back on Iron Throne, and make it happen prior Long Nights will begin, for all people to unite under Targaryens, who are the three heads of the dragons, that are able to defeat the Others.

42 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

That's a fair point. Though, as Light a Wight tonight mentioned "Mummer's Dragon" can have different meanings, and again, a Dragon is still a dragon.

That is not the point. Just any dragon won't do, it has to be one of Jaehaerys' and Aerys' offsprings. Varys and Illyrio may think whatever they want, and be convinced, that a dragon is still a dragon, though if fAegon is a lie to slay, and not descendant of Jery&Ary, then he won't ride a dragon, and he is not one of three promised Princes(s), and thus he won't be able to protect his people/7K's people from the Others.

48 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Again. That seems completely unlike the Dothraki to even think in those terms. In fact I'd imagine anybody who suggested it would be mocked for being afraid of a baby and some words.

Words of dosh khaleen determine everything for Dothraki, how they live, what they should do, EVERYTHING. Seems that many readers forgot about importance of dosh khaleen, and what they actually do - they RULE Dothraki, all of them.

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He will have the girl first, and after they are wed he must make his procession across the plains and present her to the dosh khaleen at Vaes Dothrak. After that, perhaps. If the omens favor war.

~

Most of the halls, even the largest, seemed deserted. “Where are the people who live here?” Dany asked. The bazaar had been full of running children and men shouting, but elsewhere she had seen only a few eunuchs going about their business.

“Only the crones of the dosh khaleen dwell permanently in the sacred city, them and their slaves and servants,” Ser Jorah replied, “yet Vaes Dothrak is large enough to house every man of every khalasar, should all the khals return to the Mother at once. The crones have prophesied that one day that will come to pass, and so Vaes Dothrak must be ready to embrace all its children.”

~

As each rider swung down from his saddle, he unbelted his arakh and handed it to a waiting slave, and any other weapons he carried as well. Even Khal Drogo himself was not exempt. Ser Jorah had explained that it was forbidden to carry a blade in Vaes Dothrak, or to shed a free man’s blood. Even warring khalasars put aside their feuds and shared meat and mead together when they were in sight of the Mother of Mountains. In this place, the crones of the dosh khaleen had decreed, all Dothraki were one blood, one khalasar, one herd.

~

As the smoke ascended, the chanting died away and the ancient crone closed her single eye, the better to peer into the future. The silence that fell was complete. Dany could hear the distant call of night birds, the hiss and crackle of the torches, the gentle lapping of water from the lake. The Dothraki stared at her with eyes of night, waiting.

Khal Drogo laid his hand on Dany’s arm. She could feel the tension in his fingers. Even a khal as mighty as Drogo could know fear when the dosh khaleen peered into smoke of the future.

~

“As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.” The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. “The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.”

~

Even the mightiest of khals bowed to the wisdom and authority of the dosh khaleen.

Dosh khaleen dictate rules by which all Dothraki live, and that prophecy about Rhaego, for centuries, or maybe even for thousands years, determined the way for their entire nation. No shedding blood in Vaes Dothrak, because in there all Dothraki are brothers, all of them are people of the Stallion's herd. They have build a huge city, able to house all Dothraki of the world, even though they don't even live there. And it was done, just because the prophecy said, that one day they all will be one khalasar, united by one ruler. They have build that city, and keep it in a livable conditions, because any day there can come all Dothraki, to make that place their home, home of the Stallion's herd.

Even khals are afraid of what dosh khaleen may predict. And even dosh khaleen were afraid of Dany, when they had a vision about her baby.

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Seriously. They'd just kill it. It's a baby. It can't hurt them if it's dead.

They are superstitious primitive people. They won't dare to harm him. 

Out of all Dothraki, when Dany was preparing for blood magic ritual, only Drogo's bloodriders interfered with what she was doing. Only the three of them dared to touch and harm her, because their lives were sworn to Drogo, and in their eyes Dany was killing him, and them together with Drogo. When those three were dead, the others didn't dared to do anything.

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

.......?

She's lived with them, rode with them, watched them rape, murder and pillage everywhere they go. She witnessed Drogo casually melt her brothers face off! Yet she doesn't think they are capable of kidnap?

She didn't suspected them, not even for a single moment. That her baby could have been taken by them.

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

With all due respect, you're bordering on fan fiction here. There's no suggestion at all that Irri and Jhiqui have anything but love for Daenerys, or that they were in anyway close to Khal Drogo.

There was.

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Memory came back to her all at once, and she faltered. “Khal Drogo,” she forced herself to say, watching their faces with dread. “Is he—?”

“The khal lives,” Irri answered quietly…yet Dany saw a darkness in her eyes when she said the words, and no sooner had she spoken than she rushed away to fetch water.

She turned to Doreah. “Tell me.”

“I…I shall bring Ser Jorah,” the Lysene girl said, bowing her head and fleeing the tent.

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo…and my child.’.’ Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son…Rhaego…where is he? I want him.”

Her handmaid lowered her eyes. “The boy…he did not live, Khaleesi.” Her voice was a frightened whisper.

They displayed signs of contempt and fear, towards her after what she caused.

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Jorah's another factor actually. I could buy him lying to spare Dany pain but wouldn't he tell her after she cast him out? He was desperate for some way, any way, to save himself from exile. Why would he maintain that secret even then?

If he admitted to her, that he let her baby be taken away, then instaed of exiling him, she would have killed him with her bare hands, and ripped his heart out and ate it row.

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

It all comes down the fact that Rhaego being alive really wouldn't add anything to the story, and in fact would arguably detract from it.

My post from one of recent threads:

On 23.03.2018 at 2:28 AM, Megorova said:

Even Targaryens with their five huge dragons were unable to simultaneously control Westeros and Essos. Eventually they had to completely withdraw from Essos, and focus their attention only on Westeros. So with dragons alone, Dany won't be able to be Queen of both Essos and 7K. Though I see an option in which Dany can have both. That's if Rhaego is alive.

I think that Rhaego was born alive, and then kidnapped by Dothraki, by Drogo's Ko. And thus this kidnapping is first out of three predicted treasons - the one for blood. In Vaes Dothrak Dany will find out what really happened with her son. And then she will burn those, that kidnapped her baby. This will be the second fire from the prophecy - the one for death. After that, all other Dothraki will follow Dany, as their new leader. She defeated all of their khals, thus by Dothraki law, she is their new ruler. In Drogo's khalasar, there was 40 thousands Dothraki. So probably in total, there are a few millions of them, and among those, there are at least a few hundred thousands warriors. If they will serve to Dany, then by using them, she will be able to control entire Essos. Dothraki is a mighty force. The only reason why they are not rulers of Essos, is that they were divided, and they were not motivated. They didn't had a common goal. But Dany can unite them, and she can motivate them, to do what she wants.

Rhaego is the Stallion that will mount the world. Dothraki believe in that prophecy. But they don't follow those that are weak. And Rhaego is still too young to be strong. Though if Dany will give to him one of her dragons, and he will become dragonrider, then he will be more dangerous than thousand Dothraki. Thus the problem is solved - Rhaego is the Stallion, and he is strong, because he is dragonrider.

Dany can bring all Dothraki and Rhaego to Meereen. Then thru those Dothraki she will establish control over Essos. After that she can leave Slaver's Bay under Rhaego's control, and go to Westeros. Dany will leave one of her dragons with Rhaego, as his personal bodyguard, that will also symbolise his power. And she can leave a few of her people with Rhaego, to be his regents and advisors. Someone like Quaithe is perfect for that role. She's wise, she can predict future, and she can get in contact with Dany any moment, using her magic, even if Dany will be away in Westeros. Some Dothraki will stay in Essos, and some will come with Dany to 7K. Thus Dany will have Dothraki army, Unsullied army, a few of sellswords companies, that will serve to her, and two dragons, one for her, and one for Jon.

Thus, if Dany will be smart, then she can have everything. And the main difference between Dany and her ancestors, the difference that will help her to accomplish something, in what even first Aegon failed - to control both continents, is that Dany has a leverage against Dothraki - her son is the Stallion. If he will become dragonrider, then it wouldn't even matter, that he's still a child, Dothraki will follow him anyway.

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Coming so soon after the reveal of Aegon, and the certain reveal of Jon and, hell, even Rickon as well, the next few books are going to be full of "I can't believe (character) is alive!" as it is without adding another.

Let's go thru lost and found characters.

Aegon is most likely a fake, and real Aegon is dead. So his coming to Westeros, is not return of an old character, it's an appearance of a new.

Rickon, and Bran, and Arya, and Bloodraven - other characters of ASOIAF, and book readers, thought that those people were dead, even thought they weren't.

Jon and Rhaego are lost dragonseeds. They are Dany's missing two heads of the dragon, her bloodriders, in a sense that they are like her - Targaryens.

So why should GRRM be bothered, that some people may think, that too many of "returners" will be seen by them as a bad writting? They were wrong with their assumptions, so if the book didn't turned out the way, they thought it would be, then it's nobody's fault, but their own. For example, I will be pleased, if I was right about GRRM's riddles, and guessed, by given from him clues, things that other readers missed to notice, and amongst them that Rhaego is alive. Though if it will turn out, that I was wrong, and things that I saw as clues, actually weren't, and Rhaego is dead, then - whatever, I'm not author of ASOIAF, so it's not my place to decide, how the book's plot should progress, and to deem whether this or that plot is good or bad.  

[Shi Qiang]

9 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

That's a pretty big difference though. Bloodriders are implicitly loyal because they've sworn to die with their Khal. Ko's really don't care. I mean Drogo wasn't even dead when Jhaqo, Pono and the rest abandoned him. His falling just gave them an opportunity to be Khals themselves.

Hell, one of the first things Jhaqo did when he realised that Drogo was powerless was to gang rape Eroeh - despite her being under Dany, and thus Drogo's, protection. That is not the action of someone who considered Drogo a relative. It's a pretty blatant "Screw You!."

When have the Dothraki men ever cared about other Dothraki? They care about strength. That's why they accept Jorah, the landless exile, but mock and revile Viserys, the brother of their Khalassi. It's also why Dany's original Khalasar was made up of sick old men, women and children. Blood or not, if you can't fight they've got no use for you.

Besides is it really a treason when you had no reason to ever trust the person? Jhaqo was never kind to Dany, like Ko Pono was, and she immediately accepts that Pono will kill her now that he is a Khal.

Blackfyre, Brightflame or pure blooded Targaryen, a dragon is still a dragon. It's also interesting that that the Mummer's Dragon accusation came from Quaithe warning her that he'd come to Meereen, which he never actually did.

Anyway my point is that, real or fake, we've JUST had someone appear claiming to be a Targaryen Prince that was believed to have died as an infant. Jon's is upcoming and will likely be a total contrast to the Aegon reveal but Rhaego? Wouldn't that just feel excessive and repetitive?

As for the prophecy - As far as I can see it predicts a saviour - single. The Dragon having three heads doesn't even mean that they'll even all get along. I can absolutely see Dany and Aegon killing each other, and their Dragons, leaving Jon to save the realm alone.

Oh my, no way.  Jon caused more damage to the defense against the white walkers than anyone in history.  He's unfit to lead the realm.

[Nowy Tends]

3 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Oh my, no way.  Jon caused more damage to the defense against the white walkers than anyone in history.  He's unfit to lead the realm.

What are you talking about?