The Expanse #4: Amazon Rising (spoilers for book only up to last episode)

[Spockydog]

A freakin' DVD?

Of this show?

For the love of Jesus and all that is holy, Scot. Buy a new television. 

EDIT: I do realise this may require moving some wax tablets around in order to make space in your living room, but, c'mon.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

A freakin' DVD?

Of this show?

For the love of Jesus and all that is holy, Scot. Buy a new television. 

EDIT: I do realise this may require moving some wax tablets around in order to make space in your living room, but, c'mon.  

I like DVD’s they cannot be remotely deleted like other media.  Further the first three seasons are out on DVD.

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I like DVD’s they cannot be remotely deleted like other media.  Further the first three seasons are out on DVD.

The first 3 seasons may be out because they weren't on Amazon originally. When was season 3 released just a month after it completed its airing time. We'll see if season 4 will be released, but Amazon may want you to pay for an Amazon Prime subscription instead, and maybe a Fire TV, too. 

[karaddin]

I don't understand it either

9 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

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I’ve never understood how anyone can find Trump charismatic.  I’ve disliked the man from pretty much the moment I first saw him on TV in the 1980s.

Marco has no appeal for me.  I tend to dislike people who believe that hard.  Faith is fine but people who put so much stock in their that they get angry about reasonable questions frighten me.  

 

But there are clearly some people who consider him

Spoiler

If not charismatic then some charismatic adjacent attribute. But then a huge amount of his appeal has to boil down to explicitly loving that he's an open asshole to everyone else. It comes from a completely alien (to me) mindset, but the cruelty and belligerence is the point. They wish they could act like that so they like a guy that does.

And part of Marco's charisma I think still fits neatly within what you said - I can't recall him getting angry at the questioner, he's angry at the inners. And his reasons for being angry are 100% valid, the problem is where he goes with it. He's also just personally charming, and very good looking - there is a subconscious part of our brain that wants to like people like that. And he's an abusive piece of shit, which also often goes with that and its how they draw in their victims.

They're very good at spinning circumstances to paint them in a flattering light and others as in the wrong, which is exactly what they do in intimate relationships and we see him doing it when talking to Ashford and Drummer. The spinning circumstances to his benefit is the thing that made me think of Trump though, but I'm also positive he's an abusive shit to his family (spouses and children) because he's an abusive asshole to everyone and doesn't even hide it.

 

[Spockydog]

9 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I like DVD’s they cannot be remotely deleted like other media.  Further the first three seasons are out on DVD.

Lol. Bet it looks amazing in 4:3 standard def.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Lol. Bet it looks amazing in 4:3 standard def.

That’s how I watched the 3rd season.  Is high definition necessary for real Television viewing?

[Spockydog]

59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s how I watched the 3rd season.  Is high definition necessary for real Television viewing?

Again, lol. HD is yesterdays tech. 

In my view, this is the best looking TV show ever made. This level of space porn should, for optimal experience, be viewed on a massive, widescreen, 4k screen, HDR enabled.

ETA: Don't want to seem snobbish about it, but seriously, have a think about upgrading. Watching this show on a small, SD TV is the televisual equivalent of listening to The Floyd on a crappy old car stereo with paper thin sound.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Again, lol. HD is yesterdays tech. 

In my view, this is the best looking TV show ever made. This level of space porn should, for optimal experience, be viewed on a massive, widescreen, 4k screen, HDR enabled.

ETA: Don't want to seem snobbish about it, but seriously, have a think about upgrading. Watching this show on a small, SD TV is the televisual equivalent of listening to The Floyd on a crappy old car stereo with paper thin sound.

The TV I bought in 1994 still works well.  20” seemed large when I bought it.  Why buy something you don’t need.  Actually, since we moved last year and put the TV in the basement I’ve been watching much less TV and reading a lot more.

I still enjoy this show.  I’m dieing for the last book in the series.  Heck, the title would be great to have.

[Corvinus85]

44 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The TV I bought in 1994 still works well.  20” seemed large when I bought it.  Why buy something you don’t need.  Actually, since we moved last year and put the TV in the basement I’ve been watching much less TV and reading a lot more.

I still enjoy this show.  I’m dieing for the last book in the series.  Heck, the title would be great to have.

Obligatory

[Maithanet]

I'm sure you could find a secondhand HD TV or computer monitor that is bigger than 20 inches either free on freecycle or something similar or used at a thrift store for $10 or something.  HD picture is nice to have.  Those old 90s tvs use a lot more energy than later models, so you aren't saving money by keeping it around.  I understand the appeal of not replacing something that is perfectly functional, but at the same time, what is the benefit at this point? 

[Rippounet]

Finished it last night.

This is one of the top 3 sci-fi shows of the last 10 years and given the fact that many good sci-fi shows are now more than 10 years old (Battlestar Galactica), it's not even close. I like ST:Discovery but The Expanse's storytelling is in a completely different class. It's so gripping I watched 7 episodes in a row, just couldn't stop watching...

I don't know what to even criticize. The story mixes action, politics/geopolitics, a bit of mystery/spiritual, with some sociological aspects in-between, has links to our world (refugees) as well as new topics (the Martian's ideology and its evolution). The characterization and acting are fantastic, the visuals are stunning... etc etc. If anything, it's too godamn short, I want more of this!

However, I would say...  (spoilers for the show only, I'm not a book reader)

For some reason the end disappointed me a bit.

I think the season really clarified the fact that the protomolecule is both a tool and a weapon, thus leading us to see the gatebuilders as at least a little "bad" (or at least callous with lesser lifeforms). But it left us with even more questions about the species that exterminated them. Their artefact is described by Miller as a "bomb" but it seems to be more of a gate/tool that can "clean" matter of the proto-molecule, hence why Miller "died" and the scientist survived.
What I don't get though is how is that even remotely a weapon since obviously it doesn't work automatically, has a short range -to say the least- and might even require some cooperation from anything infected by the protomolecule... Since it was described as a bomb, I expected it to explode and affect a huge area...
This all leaves me with tons of questions that I hope will get some kind of answer... But the next season seems to focus on huma geopolitics again.
Anyway I'm not sure what I was expecting but I don't feel that I know more at the end of the season than at its beginning.

I also liked the Belter storyline less. Ashford's development as a "good guy" felt bit forced (even before discovering that the show deviates from the books on this one), and his death was entirely predictable once Drummer left him leave on his own. Also, the show went too far in showing the Earthers as dicks.
Of course, I get that it was all to introduce the season 5 villain, but I wish they'd made Ashford more of a bastard until the end. I really expected him to bring detonation charges on board Marco's vessel to at least have the possibility of blowing up the shop (after rescuing Filip of course).

On what I loved:
- Avasarala. Everything about her. The season was amazing at showing how politicians become addicted to power (and maybe adrenaline in this case).
- Murtry. An amazing villain since it turns out that he was essentially correct from the start.
- The evolution of Mars, how the appearance of the gates has changed everything for the Martians and their ideology.
I do find it surprising that they would disarm that much though... I mean, the vessels at least could still be useful...
- Elvi Okoye's curiosity, constrasted with Holden's exhaustion.
- Amos.

I don't know how I feel about season 5 focusing on Naomi and her family though... I hope we still get lots of alien stuff...

 

[Kalbear]

@Rippounet, do you actually want answers or do you want to wait until later? I can tell you that right now, you're not supposed to know the answers to some of your questions but they do get answered quite clearly later on. Specifically:

Spoiler

I think the season really clarified the fact that the protomolecule is both a tool and a weapon, thus leading us to see the gatebuilders as at least a little "bad" (or at least callous with lesser lifeforms). But it left us with even more questions about the species that exterminated them. Their artefact is described by Miller as a "bomb" but it seems to be more of a gate/tool that can "clean" matter of the proto-molecule, hence why Miller "died" and the scientist survived.
What I don't get though is how is that even remotely a weapon since obviously it doesn't work automatically, has a short range -to say the least- and might even require some cooperation from anything infected by the protomolecule... Since it was described as a bomb, I expected it to explode and affect a huge area...
This all leaves me with tons of questions that I hope will get some kind of answer... But the next season seems to focus on huma geopolitics again.
Anyway I'm not sure what I was expecting but I don't feel that I know more at the end of the season than at its beginning.

 

[Corvinus85]

49 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

However, I would say...  (spoilers for the show only, I'm not a book reader)

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For some reason the end disappointed me a bit.

I think the season really clarified the fact that the protomolecule is both a tool and a weapon, thus leading us to see the gatebuilders as at least a little "bad" (or at least callous with lesser lifeforms). But it left us with even more questions about the species that exterminated them. Their artefact is described by Miller as a "bomb" but it seems to be more of a gate/tool that can "clean" matter of the proto-molecule, hence why Miller "died" and the scientist survived.
What I don't get though is how is that even remotely a weapon since obviously it doesn't work automatically, has a short range -to say the least- and might even require some cooperation from anything infected by the protomolecule... Since it was described as a bomb, I expected it to explode and affect a huge area...
This all leaves me with tons of questions that I hope will get some kind of answer... But the next season seems to focus on huma geopolitics again.
Anyway I'm not sure what I was expecting but I don't feel that I know more at the end of the season than at its beginning.

I also liked the Belter storyline less. Ashford's development as a "good guy" felt bit forced (even before discovering that the show deviates from the books on this one), and his death was entirely predictable once Drummer left him leave on his own. Also, the show went too far in showing the Earthers as dicks.
Of course, I get that it was all to introduce the season 5 villain, but I wish they'd made Ashford more of a bastard until the end. I really expected him to bring detonation charges on board Marco's vessel to at least have the possibility of blowing up the shop (after rescuing Filip of course).

On what I loved:
- Avasarala. Everything about her. The season was amazing at showing how politicians become addicted to power (and maybe adrenaline in this case).
- Murtry. An amazing villain since it turns out that he was essentially correct from the start.
- The evolution of Mars, how the appearance of the gates has changed everything for the Martians and their ideology.
I do find it surprising that they would disarm that much though... I mean, the vessels at least could still be useful...
- Elvi Okoye's curiosity, constrasted with Holden's exhaustion.
- Amos.

I don't know how I feel about season 5 focusing on Naomi and her family though... I hope we still get lots of alien stuff...

 

Since you're not a book reader, I will try not to spoil you, but a few things about the structure of the series and some of the protomolecule stuff (I'm only pointing something out here, not giving you book spoilers)

Spoiler

Nine books (one still to be published), informally organized in 3 trilogies. So book 4, and thus this season, is the beginning of the 2nd trilogy, which is why it feels like a transition, and why there are now as many, if not more, questions.

We'll see what conclusion we're given to all the protomolecule points, but it's nice that you picked up on Elvi not being harmed by the sphere, while Miller died, and everything else died. But you're saying that thing has a limited range - are you sure? When Miller died, every piece of protomolecule tech died: the structures, the defensive moons, the mechanism that killed off the fusion drives - that's because Miller made sure everything was linked to him. So, if Miller could do that, wouldn't you assume that the protomolecule tech had intricate links that could easily be exploited? Recall Holden's vision of entire systems being wiped out - why the need for such extreme measures, if the thing that could kill the proto builders wasn't effective at affecting the pro tech widely?

I'm sure more answers will follow on this. I think the show writers have done a good job with all this. The authors are heavily involved with the show writing, too.

As to the next season and how it may compare to the books.. well, book 4 was all about the Roci crew on Ilus. There was no Avasarala, Bobbie or any of the big social and political movements. But the show managed to interweave some of that with the Ilus plot. So I'm confident they will interweave some of the protomolecule mysteries with the big geopolitical stuff that will come next season.

On Ashford.

Spoiler

 

They kinda made him more sensible than book Ashford from the start, in season 3, and the transition to where he went nuts a little bit at the end was maybe too fast. And now they transitioned him back to sensible Ashford too fast, again. So I mostly agree with you, including about his predicable fate, but it was a hell of a character and great performance.

The main thing that annoyed me about Ashford's end, where the writing falters, is that his crew was too small to successfully complete that mission. I don't know if Ashford was simply arrogant, but it doesn't jive with his survivalist persona. His demise came from not watching the doors and corners.  

 

 

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

On Ashford.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

They kinda made him more sensible than book Ashford from the start, in season 3, and the transition to where he went nuts a little bit at the end was maybe too fast. And now they transitioned him back to sensible Ashford too fast, again. So I mostly agree with you, including about his predicable fate, but it was a hell of a character and great performance.

The main thing that annoyed me about Ashford's end, where the writing falters, is that his crew was too small to successfully complete that mission. I don't know if Ashford was simply arrogant, but it doesn't jive with his survivalist persona. His demise came from not watching the doors and corners.  

 

 

I also thought that Ashford's 3 man assault team seemed ridiculously small.  Was Ashford actually that concerned about keeping Philip alive?  He never seemed to be particularly enamored with Naomi such that he would jeopardize his crew and his mission for her wishes.  So why didn't he just put a big hole in Marco's ship so they decompress, and then go aboard and confirm that Marco's body is there?  That seems far safer and more likely to succeed than what they did instead.  Really Ashford's plan felt pretty shit to me, it was only plot armor that allowed them to get as close as he did to killing Marco. 

[Corvinus85]

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I also thought that Ashford's 3 man assault team seemed ridiculously small.  Was Ashford actually that concerned about keeping Philip alive?  He never seemed to be particularly enamored with Naomi such that he would jeopardize his crew and his mission for her wishes.  So why didn't he just put a big hole in Marco's ship so they decompress, and then go aboard and confirm that Marco's body is there?  That seems far safer and more likely to succeed than what they did instead.  Really Ashford's plan felt pretty shit to me, it was only plot armor that allowed them to get as close as he did to killing Marco. 

I don't think Ashford even knew Filip was there. Marco never tells Drummer that he had Filip with him.

Ashford may have wanted a confession out of Marco, determine his grander plan, see what things he may have put into motion that needed to be stopped.

[Maithanet]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I don't think Ashford even knew Filip was there. Marco never tells Drummer that he had Filip with him.

Ashford may have wanted a confession out of Marco, determine his grander plan, see what things he may have put into motion that needed to be stopped.

If his plan relied on taking Marco alive, then a 3 man team seems even more ridiculous.  It's particularly disappointing, since how hard would it have been to have a few more redshirts in suits that get killed in the background?  I mean, an 8 man team still seems awfully light, but at least not quite so ridiculous.  Are we to assume that Ashford actually had very few trusted allies left?  Maybe his reputation took a big hit between his fuckup at the end of season 3 and siding with the Inners through season 4. 

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

If his plan relied on taking Marco alive, then a 3 man team seems even more ridiculous.  It's particularly disappointing, since how hard would it have been to have a few more redshirts in suits that get killed in the background?  I mean, an 8 man team still seems awfully light, but at least not quite so ridiculous.  Are we to assume that Ashford actually had very few trusted allies left?  Maybe his reputation took a big hit between his fuckup at the end of season 3 and siding with the Inners through season 4. 

About the only explanation I have is that his ship always looked a little small, and maybe he simply couldn't have a big enough crew. He did lose a guy to the Martian prisoner. And he attacked with a breaching pod, so at least one of his crew was probably still on the ship. Get a bigger ship!!!

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Corvinus said:

About the only explanation I have is that his ship always looked a little small, and maybe he simply couldn't have a big enough crew. He did lose a guy to the Martian prisoner. And he attacked with a breaching pod, so at least one of his crew was probably still on the ship. Get a bigger ship!!!

Then he never should have attempted to board Marco's ship, and should instead go with my "create a hole and then find Marco's body" plan. 

[Corvinus85]

For book reader eyes only  (all the way to end of book 6) - something that the show did and I don't recall if the books did, and I wonder how it will play out

Spoiler

The Belters installed comm relays in the gates, that are partially in the ring space and partially in whatever solar system the respective gates are connected to. I wonder how this will play out with the disappearing ships. Maybe the comm relays will continue to function because they don't use up much power, they don't have fusion drives. Or maybe the relays will be snapped in two whenever a ship disappears.

 

[Rippounet]

Careful with spoilers guys...

@Kalbear nah, I wasn't asking for the actual answers, just asking whether we will get them later on.
I should have been a bit clearer.

@Corvinus thanks for the answer.

 

Honestly it crossed my mind that we might never learn more about the gatebuilders and their exterminators again. A bit silly of me, of course, but "realistically" speaking it was a possibility, i.e. that all that was left were ruins and anti-proto-molecule weapons.
I'm reassured now.

Quote

But you're saying that thing has a limited range - are you sure? When Miller died, every piece of protomolecule tech died: the structures, the defensive moons, the mechanism that killed off the fusion drives - that's because Miller made sure everything was linked to him. So, if Miller could do that, wouldn't you assume that the protomolecule tech had intricate links that could easily be exploited? 

Ah, yes. I guess I was easily fooled by the fact Miller (in his weird form) had to go through the weapon/bomb himself.
I suppose range isn't what's really bugging me, more like... its passive nature. In the state we saw it in, that weapon/bomb was obviously not aggressively going after the proto-molecule or proto-molecule tech.
Of course we don't know for how long it's been there, so it probably switched to a smaller or dormant state with time alone... Yet, even Miller going through did not reactivate it.
For a weapon, it's all a bit surprising imho.
On the topic of range itself: I did wonder if the weapon wouldn't affect the gate(s) itself and/or the protomolecule all the way back in the solar system, but that would have been inconvenient to develop the story.
And BTW, as I understand it, Miller is gone, but the Investigator could still come back...

I even wonder if Miller himself is really gone... Since I really don't understand how that weapon works, there's always a tiny chance that with time it can separate an individual consciousness from the proto-molecule that infected it.

Quote

it's nice that you picked up on Elvi not being harmed by the sphere, while Miller died, and everything else died. 

Well I fully expected her to die, or at least suffer grievous harm.
I mean, a human going through a deadly alien weapon? The odds of surviving ("realistically") are minuscule.
So I expected her to die, or at least (for plot convenience) to go into a coma/mad. That she didn't is extremely surprising and interesting. It means the weapon's makers were not going for indiscriminate destruction, but on the contrary designed the weapon in such a way that it wouldn't harm "random" biological lifeforms.
This suggests that, from a human perspective at least, they are the "good guys" because either they try to protect other lifeforms throughout the universe or... they are biological themselves.