The Expanse #4: Amazon Rising (spoilers for book only up to last episode)

[dooog]

Enjoyed it a lot. Like previous seasons, the show is most enjoyable when following the crew of the Roc and also Draper & Mars.  I always find myself losing interest any time Chrisjen appears on screen... don't rate her acting and she seems out of breath by the time the third word of a sentence comes out of her mouth, definitely a 100 per day lady.  Didn't particularly enjoy the Belter story either.

 

Spoiler

The settlers saying behind was puzzling to me. They've just encountered certain death & blindness several times in the space of a couple of days, they've barely scratched the surface of the planet and its other threats yet they're happy out sticking around.

 

[Martell Spy]

Spoiler

Another excellent season. RIP Dawes, you will be be missed. It was kind of clear he was not long for this world after that badass double pistols moment. 

 

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, Martell Spy said:

Another excellent season. RIP Dawes, you will be be missed. It was kind of clear he was not long for this world after that badass double pistols moment. 

You mean Ashford?

[Martell Spy]

2 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

You mean Ashford?

Yeah, my mistake. They all look the same to us Inners.

[Loge]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:42 AM, Risto said:

Thinking about this season, I am astonished by the lack of real fear regarding 1300 new planets.

From Nancy Gao to both Inners and Belters, it seems that everyone just see the opportunity and no one actually sees the danger. And as a biochemist, let me tell you, I can think of 10 different things that can go wrong with our bodies in such different surroundings, some of which have been explored by this season's narrative.

I mean, we take shots when we have to go to other parts of OUR PLANET. Can you imagine what preparations your immune system would need for INTERPLANETARY migration?

If you are thinking of infectious diseases, that probably would be your least worry. Without any humans around, there isn't anybody you could catch a disease from. Of course, the interesting question is: If there's alien life out there, how alien is it really? Was the earth just infected with life or did life start on its own? I haven't read the books (nor watched season 4 yet), so I don't know if the series addresses this.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Loge said:

If you are thinking of infectious diseases, that probably would be your least worry. Without any humans around, there isn't anybody you could catch a disease from. Of course, the interesting question is: If there's alien life out there, how alien is it really? Was the earth just infected with life or did life start on its own? I haven't read the books (nor watched season 4 yet), so I don't know if the series addresses this.

It is... discussed. 

This isn't a spoiler because I'm pretty sure they talk about it in season 2 ( they ABSOLUTELY discuss it in the first book) but the biggest question nobody seems particularly interested in is the motivation for the deployment of the protomolecule.

I think it's Dresden who posits that the protomolecule was specifically designed to hyjack and repurpose simple lifeforms, in order to construct the Ring Gate (But he didn't know that specifically at the time), but there's a disturbing lack of motivation on the part of the Precursors. Why connect all these stars? Is organic life a factor? To what point and purpose? If it's only to connect the system to the Ring Hub, were the Precursors just looking for more habitable worlds? Seems kinda mundane for a series like this, unless the point of the series is that defiling a preexisting order and violently imposing one's will upon a space or peoples is bad, and leads to discontinuation... 

But that's just a theory.

[Kalbear]

The builders simply didnt care, and they assumed (somewhat rightly) that the most complicated organisms they were hijacking were single celled bacterium and maybe some algae colonies. They shot these in millions of systems and only cared if they hit carbon based life in the goldilocks zones because that's all they wanted. 

The chances of them hitting anything more complex were very small, and the chances of them hitting actual sentient life even smaller. There is no indication that they had any fight with anyone in the actual galaxy. This was their answer to the fermi paradox - one race gets sufficiently advanced and snuffs out all competition long before it could evolve into anything. 

[Mladen]

6 hours ago, Loge said:

If you are thinking of infectious diseases, that probably would be your least worry. Without any humans around, there isn't anybody you could catch a disease from. Of course, the interesting question is: If there's alien life out there, how alien is it really? Was the earth just infected with life or did life start on its own? I haven't read the books (nor watched season 4 yet), so I don't know if the series addresses this.

As a biochemist, the interaction of our body with alien biota can lead to a number of interesting scenarios. You don'yt need other people to get a disease from. As I said, we need to get shots when we travel to., IDK, Indonesia... Can you imagine the things we would face on another planet?

 

[Kalbear]

45 minutes ago, Risto said:

As a biochemist, the interaction of our body with alien biota can lead to a number of interesting scenarios. You don'yt need other people to get a disease from. As I said, we need to get shots when we travel to., IDK, Indonesia... Can you imagine the things we would face on another planet?

 

Season 4 does one of the best jobs I've ever seen about this.

Spoiler

Because the planet doesn't have anything close to something like a virus that can attack the humans and vice versa due to no common cell analogues, everything works fine - but the life can happily live IN humans and some find a way to ignore the white blood cells, which also don't really know how to attack non terrestrial attackers. Basically humans become a giant petri dish. In addition to that, other organisms have incredibly poisonous things come out of them simply because that's how they evolved, and it just works.

In other stories they go into how both the alien fauna and us cannot eat the other, because we have no way of dealing with the proteins that they have. 

 

[Scott_N]

On 12/14/2019 at 8:46 PM, Martini Sigil said:

... Burn Gorman is a classic asshole

... As much as the Bobbie sub-plot is interesting, I'm anxious to see how she'll tie back into the main plot

I realize of course that Murtry was the supposed bad guy but I found it easy to sympathize with him. He was taking care of (and vengeance for) his team. Yes, I get his motivation was hardly pure but his actions as a commander were rational. 

Question regarding Ashford:

Spoiler

Why did he not shoot Marco? He knew he would be spaced regardless so why lamely surrender?

 

[karaddin]

If you think deliberately choosing a course of action that involves

Spoiler

personally murdering people that you don't definitively know were involved in the deaths of your team, and attempting to manufacture a situation that rationalises ordering the slaughter of an entire group of refugees - which will spill over into getting more of your subordinates killed

is rational then I think we have very different definitions of rational.

Spoiler

Amos tells us in the first or second episode what Murtry is, why he's doing it and the difference between them. They are both killers, but Amos kills when he sees it as pragmatic to protect his people. Murtry enjoys it. Everything he does after that which he tries to justify as justice, as enforcing his companies claim, and anything else he spouts as a reason is bullshit justifications - and Murtry himself pretty much says as much in his argument with Holden at the end.

He is a violent person who enjoys said violence and has chosen a job that lets him legally dish it out. Its not like people like this don't exist in the real world. And its not like they don't deploy the same bullshit justifications.

 

[Scott_N]

On Murtry:

Spoiler

He knew the individuals who had murdered many members of his team. He knew they were plotting to do further harm and preemptively shot the ring-leader and saved the people under his command. 

This in a place without institutions or policing. I believe those actions were understandable even if they were morally suspect. 

 

[karaddin]

We clearly have a very different take on it.

On a completely unrelated note, when Bobbie is on the Martian subway in one of the first episodes there's a blurry sign in the background that's recognisable as a "No Durians" sign with a fine for violations and this absolutely kills me. Great immersion and world building for people to still be growing them and stinking up public spaces even in space/on Mars 

[mcbigski]

15 hours ago, Scott_N said:

I realize of course that Murtry was the supposed bad guy but I found it easy to sympathize with him. He was taking care of (and vengeance for) his team. Yes, I get his motivation was hardly pure but his actions as a commander were rational. 

Question regarding Ashford:

  Hide contents

Why did he not shoot Marco? He knew he would be spaced regardless so why lamely surrender?

 

Spoiler

I assume because wanted to get his message sent from his wrist computer after he got spaced and didnt want to get shot dead first.

 

[Starkess]

Finally finished up! I was spoilered on (last episode spoiler)

Spoiler

Ashford's death

from this thread--probably my bad for risking a peek when I was only 8 episodes in, but FYI @Martell Spy, you might want to spoiler your #183 post.

All season 4 spoilers:

Spoiler

I really enjoyed this season. While I didn't hate CB, it was my least favorite book, and I think they improved a lot upon the source material here. Ashford's character arc was a bit messy last season (mostly from pacing issues) but really amazing overall, and I actually cried upon his death. Which I think is the first time this show has made me cry.

I was really disappointed in the resolution to the Lucia story. I've seen a lot of people pointing out, even here in this thread, that Murtry did have some justifications for his actions. But the big argument against Murtry is that he took the law into his own hands, making the situation much worse, and murdering people that should have been brought to justice when it was not necessary. I make the "necessary" distinction because I don't see Amos as murdering because when he killed Wei she was literally in his way preventing him from taking actions to save Holden and the colony, whereas Murtry clearly could have arrested and subdued the suspected terrorists rather than shooting them. I mean, this is not subtle, we see Holden clearly illustrate this when he chooses not to kill Murtry but rather arrests him and takes him back to the SS for a trial. But yet Lucia, who was a terrorist and killed many people and helped get more people killed by covering it up, is let off with a smile and a "well she felt bad about it" shrug. I understand that she likely would not get a fair trial from the inners, but that left a really bad taste in my mouth. Why not take her back and drop her at Medina Station for the Belters to deal with then? I dunno, I just don't like the idea that "People ought to face real justice systems, not the whim of whoever has the biggest guns--unless they're personal friends of the Rocinante crew."

But my biggest complaint with the season is New!Arjun. I don't like the new actor--he's too young, and his acting to me was not great, and there was no chemistry with Avarasala. And the writing for him--why have him get involved in her campaign? Why completely change his character? Really did not like that choice.

 

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, Starkess said:

Finally finished up! I was spoilered on (last episode spoiler)

  Hide contents

Ashford's death

from this thread--probably my bad for risking a peek when I was only 8 episodes in, but FYI @Martell Spy, you might want to spoiler your #183 post.

All season 4 spoilers:

  Hide contents

I really enjoyed this season. While I didn't hate CB, it was my least favorite book, and I think they improved a lot upon the source material here. Ashford's character arc was a bit messy last season (mostly from pacing issues) but really amazing overall, and I actually cried upon his death. Which I think is the first time this show has made me cry.

I was really disappointed in the resolution to the Lucia story. I've seen a lot of people pointing out, even here in this thread, that Murtry did have some justifications for his actions. But the big argument against Murtry is that he took the law into his own hands, making the situation much worse, and murdering people that should have been brought to justice when it was not necessary. I make the "necessary" distinction because I don't see Amos as murdering because when he killed Wei she was literally in his way preventing him from taking actions to save Holden and the colony, whereas Murtry clearly could have arrested and subdued the suspected terrorists rather than shooting them. I mean, this is not subtle, we see Holden clearly illustrate this when he chooses not to kill Murtry but rather arrests him and takes him back to the SS for a trial. But yet Lucia, who was a terrorist and killed many people and helped get more people killed by covering it up, is let off with a smile and a "well she felt bad about it" shrug. I understand that she likely would not get a fair trial from the inners, but that left a really bad taste in my mouth. Why not take her back and drop her at Medina Station for the Belters to deal with then? I dunno, I just don't like the idea that "People ought to face real justice systems, not the whim of whoever has the biggest guns--unless they're personal friends of the Rocinante crew."

But my biggest complaint with the season is New!Arjun. I don't like the new actor--he's too young, and his acting to me was not great, and there was no chemistry with Avarasala. And the writing for him--why have him get involved in her campaign? Why completely change his character? Really did not like that choice.

 

Spoiler

Well Lucia didn't want to kill anyone, she wanted to sabotage the landing platform, but the others thought otherwise. If she hadn't detonated the bomb at that time, everyone on the shuttle would have died. But of course, her actions were still criminal and she should face justice. However, I thought the show made a good point, and it's what got Holden to set her loose, about how Naomi got away with her act of terrorism and had the chance to find redemption. It's certainly a point that merit debate - finding redemption vs merely serving the punishment

I kinda agree with you on the Arjun casting, though it was also the writing, getting him so heavily involved with the campaign.

 

[Martell Spy]

3 hours ago, Starkess said:

Finally finished up! I was spoilered on (last episode spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

Ashford's death

from this thread--probably my bad for risking a peek when I was only 8 episodes in, but FYI @Martell Spy, you might want to spoiler your #183 post.

All season 4 spoilers:

  Hide contents

I really enjoyed this season. While I didn't hate CB, it was my least favorite book, and I think they improved a lot upon the source material here. Ashford's character arc was a bit messy last season (mostly from pacing issues) but really amazing overall, and I actually cried upon his death. Which I think is the first time this show has made me cry.

I was really disappointed in the resolution to the Lucia story. I've seen a lot of people pointing out, even here in this thread, that Murtry did have some justifications for his actions. But the big argument against Murtry is that he took the law into his own hands, making the situation much worse, and murdering people that should have been brought to justice when it was not necessary. I make the "necessary" distinction because I don't see Amos as murdering because when he killed Wei she was literally in his way preventing him from taking actions to save Holden and the colony, whereas Murtry clearly could have arrested and subdued the suspected terrorists rather than shooting them. I mean, this is not subtle, we see Holden clearly illustrate this when he chooses not to kill Murtry but rather arrests him and takes him back to the SS for a trial. But yet Lucia, who was a terrorist and killed many people and helped get more people killed by covering it up, is let off with a smile and a "well she felt bad about it" shrug. I understand that she likely would not get a fair trial from the inners, but that left a really bad taste in my mouth. Why not take her back and drop her at Medina Station for the Belters to deal with then? I dunno, I just don't like the idea that "People ought to face real justice systems, not the whim of whoever has the biggest guns--unless they're personal friends of the Rocinante crew."

But my biggest complaint with the season is New!Arjun. I don't like the new actor--he's too young, and his acting to me was not great, and there was no chemistry with Avarasala. And the writing for him--why have him get involved in her campaign? Why completely change his character? Really did not like that choice.

 

Very sorry, I hate being spoilered, too.. It was just that the thread title said TV spoilers, no book spoilers without marking it. I could probably not book spoiler much, even if I wanted to, as I have only read book one and a bit of book 2. It is now marked, though.

[Corvinus85]

FYI, since most people are still using spoiler tags, I've removed the [TV spoilers] from the title for now. It would be nice if people who wish to discuss future book events to not use only spoiler tag, but also announce it ahead of the tag. Thanks.

[Starkess]

6 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Very sorry, I hate being spoilered, too.. It was just that the thread title said TV spoilers, no book spoilers without marking it. I could probably not book spoiler much, even if I wanted to, as I have only read book one and a bit of book 2. It is now marked, though.

Yeah I understand, I'm not mad. The troubles of shows that drop a whole season at once! 

[HexMachina]

On 12/17/2019 at 1:12 AM, karaddin said:

I've finished it now and agree it was a great season and they absolutely managed to smooth the flaws in the source material.

Book spoilers up to Nemesis Games below

  Reveal hidden contents

That's just straight up cruel where they left Avasarala and Arjun - their last time together being in turmoil with him refusing to go to Luna with her. I found the loss of him painful enough in the book without this layered on top

Just show spoilers for the end of season in this one

  Hide contents

They absolutely got the casting right for Marco. I hate the fucker already but I can also see he's exactly the right type to seduce people into following him. Brook phrased it as he's a young Stalin type including the good looks that young Josef had.

Really quite gutted about Ashford as well. They took a one note character from the book, gave him a fantastic actor and a plot line with Drummer that ends with them being friends and allies and it was a far better arc than the book. Then we get that death. He went to it like a pirate that has always known he'd walk the plank eventually, which is exactly what he was. 

Avasarala allowed to fully articulate her book dialogue was also fantastic. I die for Shohrehs voice.

Me too! Avasarala is probably my favourite character on the show and its in no small part because of Shohreh! When you say her full book dialogue, is that her recording in the last episode? Haven’t read the books so I’m quite blind for this series.

(I’ve actually decided that I enjoy going into this series blind so much that I’m holding off reading the books until the show is over).

Finished the season, absolutely loved it!

Spoiler

RIP Ashford  What an awesome death scene, hit me hard emotionally. I loved his character and the actor so much.

Everything on Ilus was brilliant and I loved everything with Miller. I’m just sad this is likely the last we will ever see of him (if this isn’t the case i don’t want to know). And I think its a testament to the show that they can take something that should look and feel ridiculous (Miller as heap of scrap metal) and make such an incredibly compelling and emotional scene.

Bobbie continues to be great. I think with her story being so disconnected to the main plot with Ilus meant her scenes could have easily felt intrusive and killed the pace, but because she is such a great character and the plot was so interesting it didn’t bother me in the least.

Chrisjen v Gao...just perfect throughout. Can’t wait to see what happens with her next season and excited at the prospect of a Bobbie/Chrisjen reunion.

I see some of you have expressed that the ending could have been more effective if we didn’t know Earth was the target. I can see that point of view but for me this works perfectly. Its a cliffhanger without leaving too much unknown (kind of hard to express what i mean here...I like a good cliffhanger, but i don’t like them if they leave too much open ended. So this worked well for me