Why didn’t Tywin consider Catelyn or Lyanna as a bride for Jaime in the 270s?

[Trigger Warning]

1 hour ago, EloImFizzy said:

What Ylath's Snout said.

Plus the High Lords of Westeros are very prideful people, especially someone like Tywin Lannister, who is head of the wealthiest House in Westeros, and also the Hand of the King, the second most powerful position in Westeros. Marrying his first born son an heir to a second born daughter seems like something he would scoff at. 

 

 

I don't see why he'd scoff at it, a second born son is one thing but it's quite another with a daughter. Sons that won't inherit are seen as below great matches because they'll be marrying their daughter into a family where they are beneath the lord and his wife whereas in the case of a son marrying a daughter (so long as she is not the heir) she would be marrying into the son's house not the other way around. It doesn't make much difference where the daughter stands in line so long as it establishes a marriage bond with that house as daughter's are not expected to inherit in any house with a son, whether Jaime marries the second or first daughter of Riverrun for example he'd still be the head of house Lannister whereas a Lannister daughter marrying anyone that isn't the heir of Riverrun would be just another lady married into the Tully family. 

[Davjos]

5 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I have to admit it surprises me that someone as prideful as Tywin Lannister would accept a second born daughter over a first.

Maybe Tywin doesn’t want Jaime to be next in line for Riverrun. He really wants him to inherit Casterly Rock. If Jaime were also Lord of Riverrun, he would either have to split his attention, which Tywin might not desire since he has seen the Westerlands require a strong presence. After Tyrion’s birth, he would have more incentive to keep Jaime the heir to solely Casterly rock, or his deformed son might have to rule the Westerlands when Jaime spends time in the Riverlands. He wouldn’t really want young Tyrion to be the Kevan to Jaime’s Tywin  

Not convincing speculation, but could be something. 

[Ylath's Snout]

5 hours ago, Davjos said:

Maybe Tywin doesn’t want Jaime to be next in line for Riverrun. He really wants him to inherit Casterly Rock. If Jaime were also Lord of Riverrun, he would either have to split his attention, which Tywin might not desire since he has seen the Westerlands require a strong presence. After Tyrion’s birth, he would have more incentive to keep Jaime the heir to solely Casterly rock, or his deformed son might have to rule the Westerlands when Jaime spends time in the Riverlands.

Jaime wouldn't become lord of Riverrun first. It would go Hoster->Edmure->The Blackfish.

So Jaime would hopefully have time to get several kids. His second son would be in a great seat to become the Blackfish's heir.

[Geddus]

Catelyn, Lysa and their children would come before the Blackfish; the Iron Throne under Targaryen rule is an exception, Westeros has the "daughter before uncle" succession.

Tywin wanted to betroth Jaime to Lysa, didn't he?

[Ylath's Snout]

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

Tywin wanted to betroth Jaime to Lysa, didn't he?

Yes, the question is why her and not Cat with her slightly better claim to Riverrun for a second son of a Jaime/Cat union.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Maybe it simply wasn’t an option? Cat may not have been betrothed officially to Brandon, but the Starks and Tullys could already have been in negotiation, and Hoster saw more advantages in the Stark alliance. Similarly with the Starks and Baratheons.

If the theory that a great alliance was being formed by Lord Rickard is believed, then it’s conceivable that actually Tywin wasn’t interested in marrying his son outside the Westerlands until he got wind of it, and wanted in on it.

I agree what others have said about the first/second daughter thing. It’s just not that big of a deal with daughters as it is to sons. If something did happen to Edmure, then the eldest daughter might have a claim, but it seems more likely that Hoster would designate another Tully heir rather than allow the Riverlands to be absorbed by the Lannisters.

[Davjos]

@Ylath's Snout I don’t know how I forgot about Blackfish. I guess the brain doesn’t work that well after 10 hours of writing a dissertation. Thanks for the correction!

[Lion of the West]

Another possible part is that Tywin had figured out the Southern Ambition conspiracy, if you believe in this, and thus didn't want to risk having split loyalties or that Cersei would end up as a hostage since Tywin was on the king's side, being Hand of the King and all, for most of this time.

You may ask about his plans to marry Lysa and Jamie, but that would have not put his daughter as a potential hostage but rather given a hostage to Tywin if things went to hell, and while the Riverlands is right in the middle of events in the South, the North is far, far away so there would have been little reason to seek out Lyanna as Tywin presumably may not have had much contact with Lord Stark at all.

[The Map Guy]

19 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Can we? I have seen some pretty wild assumptions being thrown around here, looking at you "Meereenese Knot = Meera is Jon's twin" thread from last week. 

Naw but for real, my bad. 

I don't know man. Brandon might have been a horn(wolf)dog but AFAIK he never cataplutet anyone into a moat for wanting to get a loan repaid. 

Calling me out for wild assumptions huh? At least I provided a gnarly deciphered drawing by GRRM to support it lol. A pretty wild assumption would be like saying Jojen Reed is a green man...or Jojen was Howland Reed himself the whole time.

Anyways, is it confirmed that Tywin wanted to betroth Jaime to Lysa? I think we only hear it from Jaime's POV...correct me if I am wrong. If it's only from Jaime's POV, maybe Cersei planted this image in Jaime's head: another woman other than Cersei for the rest of his life. Because of Cersei's manipulative lie involving Lysa, Jaime joined the KGs to stay close to her.

If it is confirmed Tywin tried to do this, its probably like other people said so far...Brandon was already groomed to be betrothed to Cat at an early age.

 

Maybe its not about inheritance and maybe its about alliances. Lysa over Lyanna because Tywin would have some influence on the Riverlands for economical reasons and military-strategic reasons. Tywin's and Hoster's relationship (via 1st born son & 2nd born daughter) would immediately affect the flow of goods to and from the Westernlands (via the rivers). If it ever comes to war, having control of Riverrun or the rivers is an immediate military advantage.

We see it in the books already, Robb Stark, son of a Tully woman has influences in Riverrun. Perhaps if Tywin had Jaime marry off to any of the Tully women, the future grandson with the Lannister name would have the same.

An alliance with the North at best would just give you more numbers for your army (assuming they are not stubborn enough to listen to you). The North will still have to cross that river to fight a war in the South.

[Ylath's Snout]

47 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Maybe its not about inheritance and maybe its about alliances. Lysa over Lyanna because Tywin would have some influence on the Riverlands for economical reasons and military-strategic reasons. Tywin's and Hoster's relationship (via 1st born son & 2nd born daughter) would immediately affect the flow of goods to and from the Westernlands (via the rivers). If it ever comes to war, having control of Riverrun or the rivers is an immediate military advantage.

Oh I don't think anyone is arguing that Tywin didn't see the value of having Tully allies.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 8/20/2018 at 1:20 PM, Angel Eyes said:

During the 270s, Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully and Tywin Lannister were looking for prospective spouses for their children. Why didn’t Tywin consider Catelyn Tully or Lyanna Stark as a good match for his son Jaime? He didn’t seem to have a lot of foresight regarding Jaime, since Cersei got to him and convinced Jaime to become a Kingsguard.

It isn't clear to what extent they were looking for spouses for their children during the 270s.

Lord Tywin Lannister revealed to Cersei his desire to wed her to Prince Rhaegar Targaryen as early as 272-274 AC, but he rejected Princess Martell's offer to wed Jaime to Elia some time around 273-276 AC, and his negotiations to wed Jaime to Lysa seem to have occurred around 280-281 AC.

Lord Rickard Stark seems to have agreed to wed Brandon to Catelyn Tully some time in the late 270s, but it seems to have been Lord Robert Baratheon who asked him for Lyanna's hand, and we know of no attempt on his part to wed Eddard or Benjen.

Lord Hoster Tully seems to have agreed to wed Catelyn to Brandon Stark some time in the late 270s, but his negotiations to wed Lysa to Jaime seem to have occurred around 280-281 AC, and his attempts to wed her off to Lord Jon Arryn occurred after forcing her to abort her child with Littlefinger in 283 AC, and his heir Edmure did not wed until becoming Lord Tully in 299 AC.

Catelyn was already betrothed to Brandon by the time Jaime first visited Riverrun, and it is likely Lyanna was betrothed to Lord Robert by then as well. We don't know whether Tywin ever considered them for his son.

Jaime was just 15 when the negotiations for Lysa were going on, and Tywin himself did not wed until 20-21. Even then, he wed a Lannister, his mother had been a Marbrand, his grandmother had been a Webber, and his great grandmother had been a Brax.

He was clearly ambitious to marry Cersei into the royal family, and see his descendants on the Iron Throne. But he might have been content to wed Jaime to the younger daughter of his neighbor Lord Tully, or to an influential bannerman.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 8/20/2018 at 1:31 PM, EloImFizzy said:

I have to admit it surprises me that someone as prideful as Tywin Lannister would accept a second born daughter over a first. Brandon might have already been betrothed to Catelyn at that point, but I have no idea why he didn't consider Lyanna. Since all the information we get comes from either history books or from the character POVs chapters, there is a chance there is information we don't know about. Maybe Tywin didn't have great opinions on the Northerners, since they are so different to Southerners, or maybe he did try to set up a match between Jaime and Lyanna, but Rickard refused the match. 

What good is a marriage alliance with Winterfell going to do Lord Tywin? At least the Tullys are on his borders. And Lord Hoster lacked males. He had only one son, unwed. His brother refused to wed, and was behind his daughters anyways. Catelyn might have been ahead of Lysa, but she was already betrothed, and she was being shipped off to the far north anyways. Nothing wrong with a daughter who would have been third in line behind her brother and older sister at the time of her betrothal had it gone through.

[Bael's Bastard]

23 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Plus the High Lords of Westeros are very prideful people, especially someone like Tywin Lannister, who is head of the wealthiest House in Westeros, and also the Hand of the King, the second most powerful position in Westeros. Marrying his first born son an heir to a second born daughter seems like something he would scoff at. 

There's nothing wrong with the second daughter (third child) of the lord of a great house. 

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Anyways, is it confirmed that Tywin wanted to betroth Jaime to Lysa? I think we only hear it from Jaime's POV...correct me if I am wrong. If it's only from Jaime's POV, maybe Cersei planted this image in Jaime's head: another woman other than Cersei for the rest of his life. Because of Cersei's manipulative lie involving Lysa, Jaime joined the KGs to stay close to her.

If it is confirmed Tywin tried to do this, its probably like other people said so far...Brandon was already groomed to be betrothed to Cat at an early age.

Yes, Tywin himself confirmed to Tyrion that he had intended to wed Jaime to Lysa:

"You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have." He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. "I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter." (ASOS: Tyrion III)

[The Map Guy]

7 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Yes, Tywin himself confirmed to Tyrion that he had intended to wed Jaime to Lysa:

"You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have." He drummed his fingers impatiently on the table. "I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter." (ASOS: Tyrion III)

Thanks for the fact-check.

But imagine in another world: Cersei never manipulated Jaime into joining the Kingsguard, and Jaime does end up marrying Lysa out of all people. I wonder if Lysa would of cared about Litttlefinger anymore if she married Jaime instead of Jon. I wonder what kind of world ASOIAF would be if Lysa & Littlefinger never schemed together.

But the Mad King probably would have succeeded in blowing up King's Landing with Jaime absent...since Robert's Rebellion probably would have happened anyways.

I guess the people of King's Landing have Cersei to thank for this.....unless she decides to blow them up anyways in the next book.

....sorry, going off topic

[Ylath's Snout]

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

But the Mad King probably would have succeeded in blowing up King's Landing with Jaime absent...since Robert's Rebellion probably would have happened anyways.

I don't know about that, if Tywin is down to clown with the other rebels from the start the war might have ended before Aerys had time to stockpile enough Wildfire to blow up the city. Maybe.

 It is a pretty sad state of affairs that only Ser Jaime I-push-CHildren-out-Of-Tower-To-hide-My-Affair-With-My-Sister Lannister had the moral compass to stop him out of all the King's Guard.

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

But imagine in another world: Cersei never manipulated Jaime into joining the Kingsguard, and Jaime does end up marrying Lysa out of all people.

There is an ongoing thread about this, maybe check it out?

[The Sleeper]

2 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

It is a pretty sad state of affairs that only Ser Jaime I-push-CHildren-out-Of-Tower-To-hide-My-Affair-With-My-Sister Lannister had the moral compass to stop him out of all the King's Guard.

There is good chance that the rest did not know. Jaime was the only one that was at Aerys' side at the time. Three would have been at the Tower of Joy and the rest at the Trident. I assume that Aerys conceived of this after the Trident after all. 

[Ylath's Snout]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

I assume that Aerys conceived of this after the Trident after all. 

Well that's if you can make that much Wilderfire between the Trident and Skacing of King's Landing.

[Geddus]

I think Aerys conceived his plan after the Battle of the Bells, or before the Trident anyway (when was lord Chelsted burned?).

Jaime was the only Kingsguard to intervene because he was the only one present, the others were either dead, grievously wounded or in Dorne doing Rhaegar's bidding.

[The Sleeper]

1 minute ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Well that's if you can make that much Wilderfire between the Trident and Skacing of King's Landing.

That is a concern, but it still would not make much sense for Aerys to plan to burn the city before the Trident. 

Some ways I can think of getting around this would be that he had started to stockpile wildfire after Rhaegar departed for the Trident. The most plausible explanation would be that the alchemists enjoying Aerys's favor for some time had much greater production capacity at the time and could fulfil the order.