Condoning Renly Baratheon

[Arthur Peres]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Why would Rebly investigate Arryn's death? Jon was ancient by Westerorsos standards. Him taking deathly ill should have happened years ago. Stannis did not tell Renly anything, given he's always been a little salty about something(mostly Robert), it's not really unreasonable Renly to think the guy just left after being fed up-how could he know Stannis would be so low as to leave Robert and Renly in a nest of vipers with no warning of his suspicions? Catelyn did not connect the dots as soon as the letters went out, she realized the twincest during the parley with the Baratheon brothers. 

It's not just Jon Arryn's death. Stannis abandoned his seat in the small concil and fleed the city with the Royal navy, and refused to show up by months. It's not a normal behaviour.

Also, I understand your argument about Jon beind old and expected to die, but just like Barristan he seems very heatfull.

Robert shook his head. “I have never seen a man sicken so quickly. We gave a tourney on my son’s name day. If you had seen Jon then, you would have sworn he would live forever. A fortnight later he was dead. The sickness was like a fire in his gut. It burned right through him.”

This suden death with Stannis fleeing the city should have brought his atention.

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Fortify the city? We see peasants tearing the city apart relatively early on in ACOK. The Royal family was nearly murdered(and probably eaten imo), a noblewoman traveling with them was raped by dozens of men in the attack. The city was crumbling.By the time Renly actually gets there, the city's population would have made defending it properly near impossible. And the games, and shows, man they're for moral; keeping that up is important. Just because he's not rushing into battle just to fight his enemies does not mean he's simply not doing anything.

Yes, in the beggining of CoK, by the end of the book Tyrion was able to make a defense that was very costly to Stannis, that resisted the Baratheon enough for the reinforcements arrive. If Renly rushed to the city he would take it without problem, but not only he delays his march, he also decided to rescue a castle that is not in peril of falling.

Lord Slynt has tripled the size of the City Watch, and the queen has put a thousand craftsmen to work on our defenses. The stonemasons are strengthening the walls, carpenters are building scorpions and catapults by the hundred, fletchers are making arrows, the smiths are forging blades, and the Alchemists’ Guild has pledged ten thousand jars of wildfire.”

Also if the city falls apart how good would be for him later on after dealing with the Lannisters ? That is his city, it's in his interest to keep the place in good shape.

 

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's offering Robb a title to which allows him to keep image among his supporters, peace and justice for his father. He promised Robb nothing however. Catelyn never actually had a chance to deliver his terms to Robb. It's possible further negotiations would have been would have proceeded, to were more stipulations were added(perhaps more land, less tribute to the Ironthrone, an arranged marriage etc). We don't know if he had any plans to reach out to the Dornish or if he dismissed them as a loss cause. Yes, he wanted Catelyn to actually see how effective he and his allies were by quashing Stannis; a show of strength does not mean a person is not willing to negotiate; it simply shows if negotiations fail he is willing and able to get what wants through pure force.

 He does not to immediately rush into battle wasting, the lives of his followers to get Justice. 

The biggest card he is holding is his huge army, and he is refusing to put it to use. He could take KL without problem, but he is delaying his march and letting the realm bleed. He is letting Robb fight Tywin on his own while he tries to look like he is doing a favor.

About Dorne:

“The Martells have every cause to hate us. Nonetheless, I expect them to agree. Prince Doran’s grievance against House Lannister goes back only a generation, but the Dornishmen have warred against Storm’s End and Highgarden for a thousand years, and Renly has taken Dorne’s allegiance for granted. Myrcella is nine, Trystane Martell eleven. I have proposed they wed when she reaches her fourteenth year. Until such time, she would be an honored guest at Sunspear, under Prince Doran’s protection.”

“I have twice that number here,” Renly said, “and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm’s End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea.”

Renly even thinks Stannis would support him. He is completly out of touch. 

[The Sunland Lord]

7 hours ago, Salvadoe said:

You have to put yourself in the shoes of the 6 year old Renly. Who's easier to blame, Stannis, who's right there, or the far away enemy? Stannis forced him to eat his cats, dogs and ponies, Stannis wouldn't surrender so they could just eat, Stannis was harsh and mean, Stannis wasn't like Robert who would vanquish the enemies immediately.....it is not like children are rational. Renly didn't understand Stannis was doing his best to protect the both of them. Even when he grew up and understood, Renly likely associated Stannis with bad memories of the siege and this played a part in their strained relationship.

And then later he grew close with the Tyrells via Loras. The Tyrells are rich, beautiful and elegant, everything Renly coveted and completely unlike his warlike and martial brothers. And prob Renly has  a propensity for forgiveness, like Robert and didnt blame them much for it.

Why would Renly blame Stannis for the siege? It's completely irrational at a grown age. It can only be childish ratio, like you said. But once you realize that those people would've let you die starving when you were only a little kid, it's only rational to hate their guts. It's not even pettiness, like @Varysblackfyre321 says. It would be pettiness if you only blame Stannis for doing what he had to. 

So let me put myself in Renly's (as a grownup) shoes: I want to seize Iron Throne with no real claim, I would kill my nephews and niece in the process (he had no idea about the twincest), I side with the people who starved me to a near death to get there, I spit in my older brother's face when he asks me to join him because I have the bigger army behind me, (the same army and its leaders which my older brother barely kept me alive against), I instantly ignore the twincest claims (every council member put two and two together but Renly didn't, not the sharpest tool in the box apparently), and I would kill my older brother in the process. Seems to me that there's nothing to like about him.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Why would Renly blame Stannis for the siege? It's completely irrational at a grown age. It can only be childish ratio, like you said. But once you realize that those people would've let you die starving when you were only a little kid, it's only rational to hate their guts. It's not even pettiness, like @Varysblackfyre321 says. It would be pettiness if you only blame Stannis for doing what he had to. 

So let me put myself in Renly's (as a grownup) shoes: I want to seize Iron Throne with no real claim, I would kill my nephews and niece in the process (he had no idea about the twincest), I side with the people who starved me to a near death to get there, I spit in my older brother's face when he asks me to join him because I have the bigger army behind me, (the same army and its leaders which my older brother barely kept me alive against), I instantly ignore the twincest claims (every council member put two and two together but Renly didn't, not the sharpest tool in the box apparently), and I would kill my older brother in the process. Seems to me that there's nothing to like about him.  

It would be both pettiness to hate either party for they had to do-it would be petty to hate Stannis for not surrendering and having the siege lifted, and it would be petty to actually blame the Tyrells for their job by keeping on the siege. The more mature thing would be to recognize both sides merely did what was obliged of them and move on, instead of not getting hateful  that the other side of the war your family was fighting didn't go easy on yours. Its ridiciculous to chastize Renly over not hating the Tyrells for doing their jobs enough to the point he'd always refuse to work with them. And being King was literally the last resort Renly had; Ned wouldn't go along with his plan(which would have had Ned regent), he feared Cersi would kill him(she would), and the Tyrells would only back him at this point if he had promised them something worth rebelling over-and that would be one of their daughters being queen. 

[The Sunland Lord]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It would be both pettiness to hate either party for they had to do-it would be petty to hate Stannis for not surrendering, and it would be petty to actually blame the Tyrells for their job by keeping on the siege. The more mature thing would be to recognize both sides merely did what was obliged of them and move on, instead of not getting prissy that the other side of the war your family was fighting didn't go easy on you.  

That's right. Although, if Renly managed to win the war, he would've become one of the most infamous kings of all time, for everything he had to do in the process, including siding with the Tyrells.  

[The Sunland Lord]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It would be both pettiness to hate either party for they had to do-it would be petty to hate Stannis for not surrendering and having the siege lifted, and it would be petty to actually blame the Tyrells for their job by keeping on the siege. The more mature thing would be to recognize both sides merely did what was obliged of them and move on, instead of not getting hateful  that the other side of the war your family was fighting didn't go easy on yours. Its ridiciculous to chastize Renly over not hating the Tyrells for doing their jobs enough to the point he'd always refuse to work with them. And being King was literally the last resort Renly had; Ned wouldn't go along with his plan(which would have had Ned regent), he feared Cersi would kill him(she would), and the Tyrells would only back him at this point if he had promised them something worth rebelling over-and that would be one of their daughters being queen. 

Let's not pretend that nothing's personal in both Westeros and real life.

For example, it's OK not to hate the Tyrells (although it's also OK to do so), but it's plainly twisted to side with them in war to kill your own brother so that you can put your arse on the Iron Throne. That would make quite a page in some Westerosi history book dedicated to its kings. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Why would Renly blame Stannis for the siege? It's completely irrational at a grown age. It can only be childish ratio, like you said. But once you realize that those people would've let you die starving when you were only a little kid, it's only rational to hate their guts. It's not even pettiness, like @Varysblackfyre321 says. It would be pettiness if you only blame Stannis for doing what he had to. 

So let me put myself in Renly's (as a grownup) shoes: I want to seize Iron Throne with no real claim, I would kill my nephews and niece in the process (he had no idea about the twincest), I side with the people who starved me to a near death to get there, I spit in my older brother's face when he asks me to join him because I have the bigger army behind me, (the same army and its leaders which my older brother barely kept me alive against), I instantly ignore the twincest claims (every council member put two and two together but Renly didn't, not the sharpest tool in the box apparently), and I would kill my older brother in the process. Seems to me that there's nothing to like about him.  

Usurping one person is no worse and no better than usurping 4.

He sides with the Tyrells because of close relations and they are the only best option left to defy the Lannisters, whom he repeatedly says want to kill him.

He rejects Stannis because he neither likes him nor will he be able to retain his army if he bends the knee to Stannis. Mace is motivated by making his daughter queen.

You are grossly overstating the council knowledge (again). Barristan and Arryn knew nothing, like Renly, until someone told them. Ned was a little sharper but he still had to be given evidence piece by piece, most of which Renly would have no reason to ask for or suspect.

Stannis didn't do anything but sit by while he suspected he and his brother's lives were in danger. Whether or not he was off "sulking" or plotting, he remained incommunicado with the brother he know demands fealty from, attacks his ancestral home without provocation, and shows up with note and no corroboration or evidence other than "Jon Arryn -- now dead -- believed me." Condemning Renly for spurning Stannis' demonstrably less likely offer when Stannis does the opposite is full-on hypocritical too.

10 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

That's right. Although, if Renly managed to win the war, he would've become one of the most infamous kings of all time, for everything he had to do in the process, including siding with the Tyrells.  

Does anyone ever once say "I can't believe Renly sided with the Tyrells because of the siege!" LF specifically says Stannis has enmity to the Tyrells and Redwynes because he never forgets/forgives. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Let's not pretend that nothing's personal in both Westeros and real life.

For example, it's OK not to hate the Tyrells (although it's also OK to do so), but it's plainly twisted to side with them in war to kill your own brother so that you can put your arse on the Iron Throne. That would make quite a page in some Westerosi history book dedicated to its kings. 

The brother that attacked you first? And Stannis *actually* killed Renly

[Bernie Mac]

On 7/29/2018 at 8:31 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Even so, they all finded it out.

Sure. Both Varys and Littlefinger have spies, while Renly (and Barristan) don't. Jon Arryn is told by Stannis.

Renly, like 99.999% of the realm had no reason to suspect nor did anyone give him a hint like Arryn and Ned were given. 

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Renly never cared to investigate the death of Jon Arryn that one night was fine and the other was dead,

Why would he? Arryn is about 80 years of age, he is ancient by their societies standards. 

Do you know who else does not investigate his death? Stannis and the entire royal court.  Ned only considers the death suspicious when his sister-in-law, the actual murderer, tells him her husband was murdered.

It seems a little bizarre to single out Renly for this. 

 

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he also didn't care about Stannis, the personification of duty leaving his post in the smal concil without justification. When Stannis send the letters Catelyn quickly conect the points, Renly refuses to acknologe it even there.

you do realize that the feeling is mutual, right? That Renly cares as much about Stannis as Stannis does for Renly or Robert.

And honestly, we have no idea how regular Lords on the small council return home, but Stannis as the Master of Ships is going to be expected to be absent from time to time. 

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He is starving his own city near the winter while he keeps parading himself.

yeah, it is called warfare. Stannis was doing the same by sea.

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His waste of time gives the Lannisters time to fortify the city.

Why would he attack when his strength is not fully formed and with Tywin so close by? 

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He isn't letting his enemies bleed each other, he is letting the chaos run through the realms he intend to rule while he sits idle.

How do you figure that? 

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A empty title is what he is offering.

Not just an empty title

If your son supports me as his father supported Robert, he'll not find me ungenerous. I will gladly confirm him in all his lands, titles, and honors. He can rule in Winterfell as he pleases. He can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes

and lets face it, Renly was the only 'king' who was willing to compromise as he was willing to let Robb call himself a king and was offering Stannis Storm's End.  He was more powerful than either and still he offered compromise rather than war, that speaks of what kind of ruler he was.

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He promissed justice but he still delaying his march on the city,

His force was fully formed. The larger the force the fewer casualties. It is pointless going to war half assed as a pyrrhic victory would be disastrous.

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and he wouldn't compromise more,

What more should he have offered?  He was the only one offering compromise, why are you not holding up everyone to this standard? 

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we know it because he intended to show Catelyn how he would deal with rebels... he is threatining Robb after this one came with a offer of alliance. 

Isn't that a good thing? He is trying to prevent less war for his kingdom. 

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 He ignores Tarly sugestion of a night attack,

lol if he had attacked at night and broken his agreement with Stannis he'd be criticized for being dishonourable. he can't really win. 

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he replaces his best general in favor of his boyfriend,

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Renly is the general, we watched him at his war council. Generals decide who fights where. Tarly was never 'the general', he was never replaced. 

Loras is given the position of leading the vanguard, a position as one of the best and most respected knights in the realm he is qualified to do regardless of his sexuality (some of you are really hung up over this)

 

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he let Stannis choose the time of the battle...

Stannis challenged him to battle, the challenge involved the time of the battle. 

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Renly is so far away from reallity and actually playing a war, that he ask his men to capture Barristan Selmy alive, like if he could control who live and who dies in the middle of the battle.

you are beginning to sound petty as fuck now and clearly clueless about medieval warfare. Nobles in battle were often spared and because of their banners they were easily identifiable. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

I always had a hard time getting behind Renly. His claim was based on nothing more than selfishness. He had romantic notions of the splendor of it all, banners flying behind him, his love at his side, a new order of knights and winning everlasting glory. He was more interested in parading than actually waging war going by his actions, when he commanded the largest army assembled in the war. Had he been more aggressive he could've won the day easily,  but that wasn't his style. 

I'm not even sure he would've been that effective of a peacetime king. He was very charismatic to be sure, but so was Robert. In fact Renly was a part of the corrupt government that Robert ran for years and demonstrated no inclination of putting a stop to any of it. Renly may not go around whoremongering like Robert would've, but I don't doubt for a second he'd keep bankrolling tournaments and balls so long as the magic was there. 

Would he have been better than Robert? Possibly. Stannis? Arguable either way both have their laws. Certainly better than Joffrey. Really all five of the original kings suck in their own way.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always had a hard time getting behind Renly. His claim was based on nothing more than selfishness.

I take it you missed the two times where Renly tells a POV character that he's trying to save his own hide after he tried to help Ned save both their hides with him not gaining any power?

[BlackLightning]

Honestly, the Baratheon brothers should have waited to solve their differences after they took King's Landing and broke the Lannisters.

Storm's End was a waste of time for the both of them. Renly should have kept marching towards King's Landing and Stannis should have swarmed King's Landing as soon as he was ready.

That is the only reason Tyrion was able to take Dorne out of the equation and effectively defend the city against Stannis. It's a very sad thing when you have to say Cersei and Tyrion made a better team in Clash, than Stannis and Renly.

Which I guess is the point of the series....

Renly gets a bad rep because he comes across as profoundly selfish, attention-needy and hypocritical. He was the master of laws yet he wants to completely create a precedent where inheritance laws mean absolutely nothing. He was also a key member of a horribly inefficient/corrupt government...unlike Jon Arryn and Stannis, he didn't care.

Moreover, Renly gets a bad rep because he is senseless enough to allow his selfishness and attention-whorishness consume him.

But please don't misunderstand: Stannis does not get a pass either.

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I take it you missed the two times where Renly tells a POV character that he's trying to save his own hide after he tried to help Ned save both their hides with him not gaining any power?

I take it you don't like my opinion so you come out with a snide comment aimed at me personally. Clearly the fault must lay with me not having read the books for having the audacity to form an opinion independent from yours.

Yes, Renly said he was "saving his own life." Certainly he wouldn't have been long for life had he remained in King's Landing. Though even before Robert died he was scheming to advance himself and the Tyrells with a marriage between Robert and Margaery. As Robert was dying he advanced the notion of himself and Ned seizing power. He may have put a good face on it, but he was interested in power. He always was. 

[The Sunland Lord]

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Usurping one person is no worse and no better than usurping 4.

I didn't say it was.

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He sides with the Tyrells because of close relations and they are the only best option left to defy the Lannisters, whom he repeatedly says want to kill him.

Ally to defeat the Lannisters, that's OK. But he would've killed Stannis with their help if he had the chance. He practically ordered it, only said that he didn't want his body to be mocked of after they killed him.

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He rejects Stannis because he neither likes him nor will he be able to retain his army if he bends the knee to Stannis. Mace is motivated by making his daughter queen.

You are grossly overstating the council knowledge (again). Barristan and Arryn knew nothing, like Renly, until someone told them. Ned was a little sharper but he still had to be given evidence piece by piece, most of which Renly would have no reason to ask for or suspect.

I only mentioned the council once. And yes, Renly wasn't the sharpest tool in the box for not even trying to look into it. He just immaturely rejects it mockingly only because Stannis spread the word about it,

Of course that Mace wanted his daughter to be a queen, and since he is an opportunist, it didn't matter to him if it would have been Renly or Joffrey the man he wed her to. Renly persuaded the Tyrells via Loras, not because he was himself very persuasive.

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Stannis didn't do anything but sit by while he suspected he and his brother's lives were in danger. Whether or not he was off "sulking" or plotting, he remained incommunicado with the brother he know demands fealty from, attacks his ancestral home without provocation, and shows up with note and no corroboration or evidence other than "Jon Arryn -- now dead -- believed me." Condemning Renly for spurning Stannis' demonstrably less likely offer when Stannis does the opposite is full-on hypocritical too.

I'm not saying that Stannis is much better. Just that Renly is not any better than him.

Robert also didn't care about Stannis, but Stannis fought for him all the same. 

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Does anyone ever once say "I can't believe Renly sided with the Tyrells because of the siege!" LF specifically says Stannis has enmity to the Tyrells and Redwynes because he never forgets/forgives. 

Fair enough. I understand Stannis for being pissed at the Tyrells, though. Add the fact that his brother joins forces with them and wants to kill him.

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always had a hard time getting behind Renly.

I'm such a hypocrite, as much as I hate some of the obvious homophobia that made me laugh.

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

His claim was based on nothing more than selfishness.

Not actually true. He was more than happy for Joffrey to be king with someone like Ned guiding him but he was well aware that Cersei wanted rid of him. Cersie in power was trouble for him and once Ned was imprisoned this only confirmed his fears.

 

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

He had romantic notions of the splendor of it all, banners flying behind him, his love at his side, a new order of knights and winning everlasting glory. He was more interested in parading than actually waging war going by his actions, when he commanded the largest army assembled in the war. Had he been more aggressive he could've won the day easily,  but that wasn't his style. 

He was missing 10k troops. He was not stalling

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I'm not even sure he would've been that effective of a peacetime king.

His ability to compromise and keep people happy seems to indicate he would have.

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

 

He was very charismatic to be sure, but so was Robert. In fact Renly was a part of the corrupt government that Robert ran for years and demonstrated no inclination of putting a stop to any of it.

eh? this is the middle ages, they are all 'corrupt' 

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

 

Renly may not go around whoremongering like Robert would've, but I don't doubt for a second he'd keep bankrolling tournaments and balls so long as the magic was there. 

There is actually no problem with that. The crown under Aerys & Tywin did the same, they just did not borrow to do so. 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

25 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The brother that attacked you first? And Stannis *actually* killed Renly

Yes, Stannis factually killed Renly. This is the tricky part by the author though: We dislike Stannis for doing so, only because he managed to do it first and he is the one that survived. Otherwise, Renly would've killed Stannis in battle (like he said he would, or one of his men would've done it) and both the readers and Westerosi would brand Renly as a brother killer/kinslayer instead. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I didn't say it was.

They why bring it up?

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Ally to defeat the Lannisters, that's OK. But he would've killed Stannis with their help if he had the chance. He practically ordered it, only said that he didn't want his body to be mocked of after they killed him.

Stannis attacked Renly first and made an absurd demand. Why is ok for Stannis to want to kill Renly but not vice versa? 

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I only mentioned the council once. And yes, Renly wasn't the sharpest tool in the box for not even trying to look into it. He just immaturely rejects it mockingly only because Stannis spread the word about it,

You mock Renly for being selfish but support Stannis in being selfish without proof? Sure why not

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Of course that Mace wanted his daughter to be a queen, and since he is an opportunist, it didn't matter to him if it would have been Renly or Joffrey the man he wed her to. Renly persuaded the Tyrells via Loras, not because he was himself very persuasive.

So Renly plays his strongest hand, realizing he might not be able to do something, and you criticize him for delegation? What are your thoughts on Tywin sending Tyrion to KL or Rhaegar (probably) sending Oswell Whent to convince his brother to host the tourney at HH? Trying to do something yourself when you have a better option at hand is the height of stupidity.

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I'm not saying that Stannis is much better. Just that Renly is not any better than him.

Given that Renly tries *twice* to survive without gaining any power and Stannis resorts to building up his forces while Robert is alive, crowns himself without any evidence as to why, and immediately attacks Renly instead of treating with him, I am gonna disagree. 

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Robert also didn't care about Stannis, but Stannis fought for him all the same. 

Robert also hadn't attacked Stannis or gone incommunicado when he knew his brother was in danger.

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Fair enough. I understand Stannis for being pissed at the Tyrells, though. Add the fact that his brother joins forces with them and wants to kill him.

I never blamed Stannis for nursing that grudge. He doesn't have much of a right to be pissed at Renly though

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Yes, Stannis factually killed Renly. This is the tricky part by the author though: We dislike Stannis for doing so, only because he managed to do it first and he is the one that survived. Otherwise, Renly would've killed Stannis in battle (like he said he would, or one of his men would've done it) and both the readers and Westerosi would brand Renly as a brother killer/kinslayer instead. 

Stannis attacked Storm's End and instead of attacking this small army he gives Stannis the chance to explain himself to which Stannis threatens to destroy him and challenges him to battle. What do you expect him to have done? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Yes, Stannis factually killed Renly. This is the tricky part by the author though: We dislike Stannis for doing so, only because he managed to do it first and he is the one that survived. Otherwise, Renly would've killed Stannis in battle (like he said he would, or one of his men would've done it) and both the readers and Westerosi would brand Renly as a brother killer/kinslayer instead. 

Who is "we?" And as far as killing men in war: 

“Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of it? This is war. Men die in war. That is as it should be. As it has always been.”

Renly knows that capturing Stannis doesn't really do anything to improve his position. On the other hand Stannis' death means supporters won't try to save him and it's one fewer competitor for the throne, let alone a competitor with the same or a better claim.

[Lord Lannister]

Just now, Bernie Mac said:

I'm such a hypocrite, as much as I hate some of the obvious homophobia that made me laugh.

Not actually true. He was more than happy for Joffrey to be king with someone like Ned guiding him but he was well aware that Cersei wanted rid of him. Cersie in power was trouble for him and once Ned was imprisoned this only confirmed his fears.

 

He was missing 10k troops. He was not stalling

His ability to compromise and keep people happy seems to indicate he would have.

eh? this is the middle ages, they are all 'corrupt' 

There is actually no problem with that. The crown under Aerys & Tywin did the same, they just did not borrow to do so. 

 

Haha, I really didn't mean the hard time comment that way! But yeah, now that I see what I did, it's funny.  

As I pointed out in a later post, he was scheming to advance himself and the Tyrells with that union between Robert and Margaery and later wanted to be part of the government ruling in Joffrey's name. He had his eye on the opportunity and kept making moves to go for it. I actually think the idea to crown Renly king was Loras' but Renly was certainly happy to go along with it. Once he did, he later rejected Catelyn's suggestion of a Great Council rather condescendingly.

Well none of his enemies were prepared when he began his campaign, easy to say in hindsight he should've been more aggressive, but his case of the "slows" as Lincoln would've put it, was rather up there.

You got a point about them all being corrupt. Maybe Stannis isn't as much, but he also doesn't fundamentally understand how people work either, which is just as bad.

Yeah, I always wondered how Robert managed to rake in that much debt when no one else ever came close. Littlefinger couldn't have rigged the books against them that much, but I guess that's another discussion entirely.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

I take it you don't like my opinion so you come out with a snide comment aimed at me personally. Clearly the fault must lay with me not having read the books for having the audacity to form an opinion independent from yours.

Yes, Renly said he was "saving his own life." Certainly he wouldn't have been long for life had he remained in King's Landing. Though even before Robert died he was scheming to advance himself and the Tyrells with a marriage between Robert and Margaery. As Robert was dying he advanced the notion of himself and Ned seizing power. He may have put a good face on it, but he was interested in power. He always was. 

So we are meant to ignore Renly telling Ned the Lannisters aren't merciful and it won't end up well if Cersei remains regent, ned's subsequent imprisonment and execution, Renly repeating the same thing to Catelyn, and then Cersei admitting she wanted to kill Stannis and Renly before she killed Robert?

He is interested in retaining power. He specifically avoids trying to gain power until it's literally his last option. He feared Cersei so much he left before Robert even died. Alone against the crown he stood no chance. Hell he doesn't even get all the Stormlords to rally to his banner when he crowns himself. Marrying Marg to crown himself is most certainly advancing his own claim to power but it's also just as important in his self preservation, both by preventing the Tyrells from going with the IT and surrounding himself with more troops than the crown can throw at him.