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Stormking902

Sweet Robin and Sansa will be LF doom!!

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Sansa is FINALLY starting to learn the game and she knows LF only control over the Vale is SR, Sansa also knows that SR has a serious crush on her and that LF doesnt truly have his best interests at heart. 

I believe Sansa will reveal her true identity to SR and the true murderer of her mother, SR has been written as a spoiled brat who was babyied way to late in life BUT I think he is growing up and isnt as dumb as LF and others believe him to be. SR and Sansa will confine in Yohn Royce and it will be the end of LF. 

 

Anybody else believe SR will survive the series as a serious underdog story?. It would kind of funny if SR was LF kid as well lol. 

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45 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Anybody else believe SR will survive the series as a serious underdog story?. It would kind of funny if SR was LF kid as well lol. 

 

Are you kidding? SR is AA and TPTWP. His sigil will be a nine year old boy suckling a golden breast with a flaming teat.

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And what does Sansa win from becoming Yohn Royce's hostage instead of Littlefingers?

From Sansa's POV Littlefinger killed Lysa because Lysa was trying to kill her, why would she expose him when he saved her? For all she knows, Littlefinger has been nothing but good to her - killed Joffrey, almost got rid of her marriage with Tyrion, aided her escape, is preparing a profitable match for her, wants to win back the North for her, is treating her well, is sharing what she thinks his plans are and he has hots for her, so she thinks has a way of getting what she wants from him to a certain degree. She has no knowledge whatsoever of the bad things he did to her and her family, but who will tell her? - Not many people know and they're either very far away or have no reasons to tell her.

You're suggesting that she drops Littlefinger in favour of Sweetrobin, a sickly, unstable child with no real power of his own, who essentially is a hostage of sorts till he is of age and for Yohn Royce who has no reason act in her interests and no way to be manipulated by Sansa. I say that's not a smart plan.

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1 minute ago, wia said:

And what does Sansa win from becoming Yohn Royce's hostage instead of Littlefingers?

From Sansa's POV Littlefinger killed Lysa because Lysa was trying to kill her, why would she expose him when he saved her? For all she knows, Littlefinger has been nothing but good to her - killed Joffrey, almost got rid of her marriage with Tyrion, aided her escape, is preparing a profitable match for her, wants to win back the North for her, is treating her well, is sharing what she thinks his plans are and he has hots for her, so she thinks has a way of getting what she wants from him to a certain degree. She has no knowledge whatsoever of the bad things he did to her and her family, but who will tell her? - Not many people know and they're either very far away or have no reasons to tell her.

You're suggesting that she drops Littlefinger in favour of Sweetrobin, a sickly, unstable child with no real power of his own, who essentially is a hostage of sorts till he is of age and for Yohn Royce who has no reason act in her interests and no way to be manipulated by Sansa. I say that's not a smart plan.

Yohn Royce doesnt want to use Sansa for anything......... Ned Stark was a good friend of his and id bet my last dollar he would protect her because he is honour bound to do so and honour to house Royce of Runestone actually means something. 

Sansa will find out about LF some way or another and she already probably suspects he wants SR dead who is her last known family she has .... She is going to protect SR. She knows LF isnt what he says he is she just doesnt have any other options atm. 

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43 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Yohn Royce doesnt want to use Sansa for anything......... Ned Stark was a good friend of his and id bet my last dollar he would protect her because he is honour bound to do so and honour to house Royce of Runestone actually means something. 

Sansa will find out about LF some way or another and she already probably suspects he wants SR dead who is her last known family she has .... She is going to protect SR. She knows LF isnt what he says he is she just doesnt have any other options atm. 

Well her own aunt just tried to kill her recently, so why would Sansa trust him on the 'he's honorable and he's my father's friend' grounds. And if Yohn Royce has any brains at all (and he has plenty, as it seems), he's gonna use her. The difference is that he'll use her moderately 'cause he also has honor.

And again, who will tell her?
- Lied to Cat about the dagger: Tyrion (far away, unlikely to get anywhere near Sansa while LF is in control, Sansa doesn't trust him), Lady Stoneheart (far away, most likely has no idea where Sansa is), Varys... well would she believe Varys over Littlefinger? - I don't think so, seeing how Varys has done nothing for her.
- Betrayed Ned: well there is a number of people who saw that whom she wouldn't believe (Cersei, Myrcella, Tommen, Varys, Kingsguard, Lannister guardsmen, gold cloaks, the royal steward) and the Hound (unlikely to meet while LF is in control).
- Spilled the plan for Sansa to marry Willas to Lannisters: Tyrion (far away, unlikely to get anywhere near Sansa while LF is in control, Sansa doesn't trust him), Cersei (no way Sansa would believe her).
- Jeyne Pool: Lannisters, probably Varys, possibly Boltons - no way Sansa would believe them.
Was there something else?
Oswell Kettleblack might know stuff, but we don't know what he knows and there's no reason to think he'd tell anything to Sansa if he did know. Littlefinger has it all under control.

Edited by wia

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1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Yohn Royce doesnt want to use Sansa for anything......... Ned Stark was a good friend of his and id bet my last dollar he would protect her because he is honour bound to do so and honour to house Royce of Runestone actually means something. 

Sansa will find out about LF some way or another and she already probably suspects he wants SR dead who is her last known family she has .... She is going to protect SR. She knows LF isnt what he says he is she just doesnt have any other options atm. 

And as for Sansa protecting Sweetrobin... it's up for speculation.

 

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1 hour ago, wia said:

And as for Sansa protecting Sweetrobin... it's up for speculation.

 

I hate Sansa so much litterally my least fav character with a POV, but still I cant see her trying to kill SR just doesnt seem like SANSA to me. 

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Pretty sure that Yahn Royce, as well as a number of others in the Vale, are well aware of who Sansa actually is.  Right now, they are biding their time and waiting to make their play.  They will approach her when the time is right. 

As for SR, he's disposable.  I'd be very surprised if he survives the next book. 

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26 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

I hate Sansa so much litterally my least fav character with a POV, but still I cant see her trying to kill SR just doesnt seem like SANSA to me. 

Maester Colemon is giving Robert too much sweetsleep, Robert's condition is deteriorating and Sansa (or should we say Alayne) knows it and further encourages it. 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II
Alayne understood all that well enough, but it meant that the burden of getting Sweetrobin safely down the mountain fell on her. "Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk," she told the maester. "That will stop him from shaking on the journey down."
"He had a cup not three days past," Colemon objected.
"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."
"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."
"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"
"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."
"I must speak to the Lord Protector. This feast . . . is that wise, I wonder, after the strain of the descent?"
"It will not be a large feast," she assured him. "No more than forty guests. Lord Nestor and his household, the Knight of the Gate, a few lesser lords and their retainers . . ."
"Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him."
"Music soothes him," she corrected, "the high harp especially. It's singing he can't abide, since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep. "Lord Nestor will have no singers at the feast, only flutes and fiddles for the dancing." What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne . . . "Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble."
"Very well." They paused at the foot of the stairs. "But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer."
"You had best take that up with the Lord Protector." She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

Quote

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I
He nodded, offered his arm, led her out onto the floor. As they waited for the music to resume, Alayne glanced at the dais, where Lord Robert sat staring at them. Please, she prayed, don't let him start to twitch and shake. Not here. Not now. Maester Coleman would have made certain that he drank a strong dose of sweetmilk before the feast, but even so.

I wouldn't say that it's a plot of hers to get Robert killed intentionally. But she certainly prioritizes his calm behaviors during feasts over him not taking poison that accumulates in the body that the Maester warned her about. Should Sweetrobin die of sweetsleep poisoning, it'd be something like what we would qualify as gross negligence manslaughter in our world for Sansa, Littlefinger and Maester Colemon.

-----

19 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

Pretty sure that Yahn Royce, as well as a number of others in the Vale, are well aware of who Sansa actually is. 

I agree.

Edited by wia

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3 hours ago, wia said:

You're suggesting that she drops Littlefinger in favour of Sweetrobin, a sickly, unstable child with no real power of his own, who essentially is a hostage of sorts till he is of age and for Yohn Royce who has no reason act in her interests and no way to be manipulated by Sansa. I say that's not a smart plan.

This is a good analysis, I think. We (at least, I) still don't see much sign of independent planning, let alone action from Sansa, even in the released Winds o'Winter chapter. She's seducing Harry the Heir at the orders of her "father" (and dollars to donuts, Baelish is probably giving her flirting lessons). Meanwhile, Sansa as you noted doesn't have much of a grasp upon The Crimes of Littlefinger (sorry, JKR!) and sees him as her beneficiary; why would she betray or attack him?

Also, it appears Sansa is getting increasingly tired of "Sweet" robin, with his whining, his demands, his unreasonableness, his tantrums, his remarkable ability to go into a shaking fit when he doesn't get his way. Maybe the kid is getting a little smarter, but he's still 7 or 8, unhealthy, and like I said, a selfish little PITA. I leave it to better people to pity and love this kid.

More likely, in my opinion, will be that Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse (just hired by Littlefinger, in one of his rare boo-boos) will figure out who Sansa is - the object of his quest - and kidnap her. From there, a quick trip to King's Landing and Cersei (now without any opposition or good council) to cash in. This will leave Little Robert in the untrustworthy hands of Petyr Baelish, and I'd say Little Rob is even less likely to stage a coupe against his stepfather.

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Thanks @zandru. )

I think Shadrich knows who she is. But here's the thing - Sansa can't be kidnapped by the likes of Shadrich. It's the Vale, they are surrounded by the Mountain Clans that are even stronger than before. One would need at least a dozen of people to get out of there.

Edited by wia

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1 minute ago, wia said:

It's the Vale, they are surrounded by the Mountain Clans that are even stronger than before.

This is a really good point! I'd forgotten. It might take some other hairbrained scenario to get "Alayne" out of the Vale and inadequately guarded, to make a kidnapping even feasible. I won't even speculate on how this might occur, if it does. However, I still see Shadrich as a lurking threat!

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1 minute ago, zandru said:

This is a really good point! I'd forgotten. It might take some other hairbrained scenario to get "Alayne" out of the Vale and inadequately guarded, to make a kidnapping even feasible. I won't even speculate on how this might occur, if it does. However, I still see Shadrich as a lurking threat!

I do too. Littlefinger just set this up really well. ))

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7 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Sansa is FINALLY starting to learn the game and she knows LF only control over the Vale is SR, Sansa also knows that SR has a serious crush on her and that LF doesnt truly have his best interests at heart. 

I believe Sansa will reveal her true identity to SR and the true murderer of her mother, SR has been written as a spoiled brat who was babyied way to late in life BUT I think he is growing up and isnt as dumb as LF and others believe him to be. SR and Sansa will confine in Yohn Royce and it will be the end of LF. 

 

Anybody else believe SR will survive the series as a serious underdog story?. It would kind of funny if SR was LF kid as well lol. 

Judging by Sansa's conversation with Randa Royce on the way down from the Eyrie, she is still a complete novice at this. She'll be lucky if she isn't exposed before long, either intentionally or accidentally, and dragged back to KL by Ser Shadrich.

Personally, I'm hoping that Petyr meets up with Lady Stoneheart at some point. That should make for an interesting conversation.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Personally, I'm hoping that Petyr meets up with Lady Stoneheart at some point. That should make for an interesting conversation.

I do like this idea. If unDead Cat has even half the political smarts of Live Catelyn, she's pieced together quite a web of Baelish's lies and their consequences. Moreover, she appears to be totally without mercy. Sadly, the evil getting their just deserts and the good their rewards doesn't appear to be part of the GRRM mo. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Edited by zandru

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

I do like this idea. If unDead Cat has even half the political smarts of Live Catelyn, she's pieced together quite a web of Baelish's lies and their consequences. Moreover, she appears to be totally without mercy. Sadly, the evil getting their just deserts and the good their rewards doesn't appear to be part of the GRRM mo. Quite the opposite, in fact.

True, Petyr could be Azor Ahai and Sansa his Nissa Nissa for all we know.

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6 hours ago, wia said:

Maester Colemon is giving Robert too much sweetsleep, Robert's condition is deteriorating and Sansa (or should we say Alayne) knows it and further encourages it. 

I wouldn't say that it's a plot of hers to get Robert killed intentionally. But she certainly prioritizes his calm behaviors during feasts over him not taking poison that accumulates in the body that the Maester warned her about. Should Sweetrobin die of sweetsleep poisoning, it'd be something like what we would qualify as gross negligence manslaughter in our world for Sansa, Littlefinger and Maester Colemon.

Thanks for documenting the overdose of "sweet" being infused into Sweetrobin. I think this is important to the conflict between Sweetrobin and Harrold Hardyng as rival heirs of the Vale, as it emphasizes the bitter / sweet duality that GRRM has explored in other characters in conflict. (If the link is tl/dr: with their diamond sigil, House Hardyng seems to symbolize dragon teeth and there is wordplay on biter / bitter. Along with the lemon symbolism, associated with strengthening teeth and an idea that things that are sweet will rot teeth.)

Most interesting to me is that Humfrey Hardyng has a legendary jousting match with Aerion Brightflame, the Targaryen prince who is exiled to Essos after the tournament in Ashford Meadow. In the same bitter / sweet link in the previous paragraph, I was trying to figure out whether we were seeing symbolic Bloodraven / Blackfyre characters in the Hardyng / Brightflame conflict. I was seeing arguments both ways - Hardyng symbolizing Bloodraven and/or Brightflame symbolizing Bloodraven. My guess is that GRRM wants us to see the sides in these major blood feuds as somewhat interchangeable: war is a stupid waste, and both sides are making the same claims and have just as much "right" to be the victor, even though victory will be Pyrrhic. (Recall the example of the jousting little people at Joffrey's wedding feast, whose shields have been painted and repainted with many sigils; who may or may not have changed dog / pig "mounts" during the match; and who recover after having a melon / head cut off.) 

But there are also some clear parallels between Sweetrobin and Bloodraven, so Hardyng and the young Lord Arryn both could make a case for symbolizing this important Targaryen scion.

Sweetrobin's lust for lemon cakes represents his tendency toward the "bitter" (lemon) side of the equation, but he behaves rudely toward Maester Colemon, who may embody lemony lemons because of his lemon name. Sweetrobin also has a fascination with flying - he wants to be a winged knight. So that might be the biter / dragon symbolism coming into play in a different way. 

I agree with the OP that Sweetrobin is going to gain strength and develop into an interesting character. Part of my hunch for this is based on wider speculation based on the "Sansa = Alayne; Littlfinger = Secret Targ" thread I posted a few weeks ago. I wonder whether GRRM might have devised Littlefinger's personal mockingbird sigil to tell us that, like a cowbird, Littlefinger has allowed his "eggs" to be raised in other people's nests: if Sansa really is his daughter, it's equally likely (maybe even more likely) that Sweetrobin is his son. If so, he is not going to actively kill Sweetrobin or help him to die, in my opinion. 

So Sansa / Alayne won't have to choose between Sweetrobin and Littlefinger. If Baelish is the father to both of them and he really is a Targ, though, he might want them to marry. Or he might have some sort of "the dragon has three heads" ambitions for his descendants, similar to Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy. 

Some Harrold speculation that draws on the released sample chapter from Winds:

Spoiler

If Harrold really is a Hardyng / Waynwood descendant (and not another of Littlefinger's mockingbird babies), my guess is that he is doomed. The Uthor Underleaf character in the Dunk & Egg stories reminds me strongly of Littlefinger, and Uthor's regular practice was to bribe tournament officials to match up the jousters he wanted, as well as to bribe opponents to take a fall when the time was right, so he (Uthor) could collect on bets. I suspect the tragic death of Ser Hugh of the Vale at the Hand's Tourney was foreshadowing for the fate of Harrold.

One other observation, however, in keeping with the dragon-related speculation here: if the Hardyng sigil represents dragon teeth, there may be something important in Harrold having one baseborn child and another on the way. GRRM likes to do things in threes, and we know that Dany had three dragon eggs. If Harrold's two earlier paternity situations represent two baby dragons, he may be planning for Harrold to get the hat trick ( = three points) before he dies. Maybe Littlefinger's plan is for Sansa to be impregnated by Harrold for some reason? But Myranda Royce still may be trying for the same outcome with Harrold . . .  

 

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LF probably isn't getting out of the Vale and Robert will finish the series as king, but it's not going to be just a case of telling Yohn anything, his status is completely reliant on LF's persistence in the Vale. The Vale is wired to blow, big civil war coming.

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What is it in Sansa's chapters that make you think she has learned to become a player?

12 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Sansa is FINALLY starting to learn the game and she knows LF only control over the Vale is SR, Sansa also knows that SR has a serious crush on her and that LF doesnt truly have his best interests at heart. 

I believe Sansa will reveal her true identity to SR and the true murderer of her mother, SR has been written as a spoiled brat who was babyied way to late in life BUT I think he is growing up and isnt as dumb as LF and others believe him to be. SR and Sansa will confine in Yohn Royce and it will be the end of LF. 

 

Anybody else believe SR will survive the series as a serious underdog story?. It would kind of funny if SR was LF kid as well lol. 

I personally have not seen any significant change in Sansa Stark.  She is still the same self-centered person in her last chapter that she was in her first.  Understand, I am not saying she's evil.  I'm not bashing the character.  I just have trouble seeing why her fans are so set on predicting great things from her.  I have even seen a post where some fan of hers basically ignored five books already published and rewrote the entire story just so it ends with Sansa on the throne!  I am not a fan of Sansa and in my opinion it is more realistic to have people in the story who are simply average rather than capable.  

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