Were Ned, Robert and Jon Arryn the villains of the rebellion?

[kissdbyfire]

57 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I tried to find something here to consider seriously but came up short.

Shocking.

57 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Aerys the Great Victim, Jon Arryn the LF of his day, Robert a king in waiting long before events actually pushed people to action....

Yeah. Usually comes from the same camp that names Bowen Marsh a hero, who support the Ramsay Bolton fan club, and consider Janos fucking Slynt a victim. I can’t even...

57 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

All based off conjecture around some marriage alliances.

Rhaegar would have removed his own father from power due to incapacity (madness) given the opportunity.  There's no reason to look for other people to fit the bill here or engage in a high risk plot.  When Aerys started killing people of the highest rank without trial the game changed. 

Oaths work two ways.  When the king breaks his part of the compact the issue is resolved by swords.

Don’t be silly... you’re now getting to the core issues in Aerys’s reign, and the posse of haters will just dismiss what you said and come up w/ dumb as fuck unsupported “arguments” to prove you wrong. 

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah. I can usually see where someone is coming from, even if I don't agree with where they are going. But I cannot wrap my mind around this. 

Some King, that is no friend or family of mine, means next to nothing to me in comparison to my friends/family. 

A King who is no friend/family of mine, is cruel & mad, & has also killed 2 of my friends/family in a horrific manner not only means nothing to me but I would also kill the man if given the chance.

This mind set is how we ended up with things like Nazi Germany - this doing what we are told regardless of what is right. 

Ned lost 2 siblings & his father thanks to the Targ's & had Jon Arryn not stood up for him he would have lost a close friend & his own head in the process also, yet some how things are still spun to make Aerys the victim. I just don't get it. 

 

At this point, I think that most of Targ fans are quite literally on a cult, not only they repeat like parrots the same nonsense fallacies but end up in the grand  finale, everything would've been better if everyone would just let Aerys do whatever the hell he wants because if not peasants would die and  that's awful... Unless we're talking about a war for a Targ restoration because then, everyone from Dorne to the Wall would be glad to kill themselves to have another Targ on the Throne.

[Agnessa Schizoid]

Let's say Aerys had proof of some sort of northern conspiracy. I don't think the story supports it yet, but let's say there was some sort of rebellion in planning. In this case, Aerys should have had given Rikard and his accomplices fair public trial where he would present the evidence of their treason.
Like the one that was given to Tyrion. Yes, Tyrion is unhappy with his trial and we know he's innocent, however, he was given a trial, could present his witnesses, the accusing side presented evidence of motive and opportunity as well as character witnesses. And in the end he had an option of trial by combat. So while the trial was conducted with bias it was legal trial by standards of Westeros.
If Rikard was given proper trial with strong evidence presented,  innocent people could observe it and think: Okay, I am innocent, so there would be no such evidence against me. If King calls me to court I will go and defend my innocence.
If strong evidence agains Rikard was presented and he was then executed, people again could say: Okay, that's what happens to treasonous lords, serves him right, would not happen to me. Some could still rebel, of course. However, Aerys could keep Rikard and Brandon as hostages for Ned's good behavior and make him lord in the north.
However, if you start killing your most powerful vassals willy-nilly, without any proof of their treason, other vassals naturally decide that you can kill them as well at any given moment simply on a whim.
So even if there was some plot, Aerys was still in the wrong.

As for marriage plans, there is nothing strange about them. It is literally what aristocrats were always doing - marrying among each other. If Aerys wanted to prevent that, he could issue decree that all marriages among Great Houses require special permission from the crown, otherwise they are illegal. These would be mostly a formality, but he could also put a stop to some marriage he doesn't want. I believe there are historical precedents for that.
I am not saying this decree would go over very well, but it would be harder to use some decree as pretext to start a bloody rebellion instead of "Crazy king is killing most important nobles for no obvious reason".

 

[Narsil4]

26 minutes ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

Let's say Aerys had proof of some sort of northern conspiracy.

I suspect that to be the reason Aerys allowed Ethan Glover to live. 

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"Someone told." Hotah shrugged. "Someone always tells."

So it may be that Aerys had good reason to execute them all, but may have not been forthcoming about the details, to allow his spy to continue reporting on the Starks. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

So it may be that Aerys had good reason to execute them all, but may have not been forthcoming about the details, to allow his spy to continue reporting on the Starks

It's possible but I doubt it. What are the chances that a mad person, who sees conspiracies everywhere, actually got it right this one time? I suppose even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

The issue is whether he thought he had good reason or not, if he wished to remain King, he can't run around killing his Lord's for seemingly no reason. If there was a justifiable reason he needed to share it & let it go to trial like @Agnessa Schizoid said. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's possible but I doubt it. What are the chances that a mad person, who sees conspiracies everywhere, actually got it right this one time? I suppose even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

Not this clock... this clock had both hands spinning out of control, never once stoping at the right time.

IRT the bold, that’s exactly it. Aerys was mad and paranoid, seeing conspiracies  everywhere. For instance, he thought Tywin was in cahoots w/ Rhaegar to have him killed at Duskendale. 

TWoIaF, Aerys II

 “Once safely returned to King’s Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin’s daughter.”

<snip>

“In the years that followed, the king’s madness deepened. Though Tywin Lannister continued as Hand, Aerys no longer met with him save in the presence of all seven Kingsguard. Convinced that the smallfolk and lords were plotting against his life and fearing that even Queen Rhaella and Prince Rhaegar might be part of these plots, he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster, reasoning that only a man without friends, family, or ties in Westeros could be relied upon for the truth. The Spider, as he soon became known to the smallfolk of his realm, used the crown’s gold to create a vast web of informers. For the rest of Aerys’s reign, he would crouch at the king’s side, whispering in his ear.”.

We know Rhaegar was planning something, “changes”, whatever those might have been. Were some lords in on whatever it was Rhaegar was planning? We don’t have enough info, but it doesn’t even matter. Just because Mad Aerys thought there was an ongoing conspiracy, doesn’t mean that he was right. And much less did his suspicions give him the right to start offing his vassals w/o a trial or anything. The second he started doing that, it probably became clear that he had to go ASAP. Too bad Rhaegar didn’t act sooner, I bet that’s a regret he took to his grave. 

[Narsil4]

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What are the chances that a mad person, who sees conspiracies everywhere, actually got it right this one time?

Well it's not just randomly figuring it out, it would be Ethan Glover telling him about it. 

Which in Aerys state, would have been something he wanted to believe, even if it wasn't true. 

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If there was a justifiable reason he needed to share it & let it go to trial like @Agnessa Schizoid said. 

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm just suggesting that Aerys may have had what he thought were good reasons to keep the details to himself. 

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Aerys was mad and paranoid, seeing conspiracies  everywhere.

Yes but he still seemed to be sane enough to use spies.

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he reached across the narrow sea to Pentos and imported a eunuch named Varys to serve as his spymaster,

Which may suggest he had actual reasons to believe some of things he was worried about.

[divica]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We know Rhaegar was planning something, “changes”, whatever those might have been. Were some lords in on whatever it was Rhaegar was planning? We don’t have enough info, but it doesn’t even matter. Just because Mad Aerys thought there was an ongoing conspiracy, doesn’t mean that he was right. And much less did his suspicions give him the right to start offing his vassals w/o a trial or anything. The second he started doing that, it probably became clear that he had to go ASAP. Too bad Rhaegar didn’t act sooner, I bet that’s a regret he took to his grave. 

But the problem is that we do know rhaegar planned to do something in harrenhall. And given aerys and tywin's conflicts it is completly believable that he would have preferred that aerys died in dunkensdale.... It is hard to call someone a mad paranoid person when people are actually conspiring against him... 

And another important detail is that we are never told why aerys wanted Ned and Robert dead. He didn t demand hostages, he didn t want to end the barateon and Stark line, he wanted those 2 people dead. He certainly acused them of something and he had his reasons. The rebellion propaganda just used the fact that he was mad to make his accusations ridiculous. And given the amount of northern lords aerys had at his disposition to torture it is very believable that someone told the king about a conspiracy against him... 

[divica]

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's possible but I doubt it. What are the chances that a mad person, who sees conspiracies everywhere, actually got it right this one time? I suppose even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

The issue is whether he thought he had good reason or not, if he wished to remain King, he can't run around killing his Lord's for seemingly no reason. If there was a justifiable reason he needed to share it & let it go to trial like @Agnessa Schizoid said. 

But aerys was at least right about rhaegar planning something. And probably right about Tywin wanting his death in dunkensdale and afterwards... 

 

And as I said above, just because we Don t know aerys motivations doesn t mean they didn t exist. Just that the rebells used his madness to make the accusations ridiculous and not mention them. They painted themselves as heroes and buried everything that contradicted this. Maybe with faegon and Danny arriving in westeros we will learn about the rebellion from more pro targ people...

No matter how we paint it Rickard actions are very weird and clearly destabilize aerys power. Brandon's squire surviving is very weird. Aerys asking for Ned's and Robert's heads is very weird (they have no connection to the events in KL that led to Brandon's death)... It is easy to blame all this on madness, but aerys wasn t irracional. He saw conspirações everywhere and was cruel. He wasn t batshit crazy... 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, divica said:

But aerys was at least right about rhaegar planning something. And probably right about Tywin wanting his death in dunkensdale and afterwards... 

 

And as I said above, just because we Don t know aerys motivations doesn t mean they didn t exist. Just that the rebells used his madness to make the accusations ridiculous and not mention them. They painted themselves as heroes and buried everything that contradicted this. Maybe with faegon and Danny arriving in westeros we will learn about the rebellion from more pro targ people...

No matter how we paint it Rickard actions are very weird and clearly destabilize aerys power. Brandon's squire surviving is very weird. Aerys asking for Ned's and Robert's heads is very weird (they have no connection to the events in KL that led to Brandon's death)... It is easy to blame all this on madness, but aerys wasn t irracional. He saw conspirações everywhere and was cruel. He wasn t batshit crazy... 

Are we to believe then that the KOTLT was actually Jaime desguised, ready to kill Aerys?? Or that the families of his paraours actually had a hand in the death of his newborn children?? Aerys wasn't irrational, he just saw conspirations everywhere... Aerys was batshit crazy, we're told several times the man was batshit crazy, all sources agreed the man was batshit crazy, why wouldn't he be batshit crazy then??

Are we to believe that there is a conspiration that only fans talk about??  No Targ complained about the marriages but all the sudden, there are somehow aimed to dethrone them ut both Ned and Robert seemed to suffer cogntive dissonance and that's why they seem to ignore Aerys' "sound" reasons to start mass murdering people?? Are we to believe that he didn't make the alledged treason public so to deligitimize the Robelion?? Are we to believe that neither Barri B nor Jaime ever hintted that treason?? And we're talking about people who regret having been under Aerys' orders, wouldn't they use everything they had to comffort themselves?? Why in the world the White Bull gave Jaime such a pep talk if they were killing traitors?? Do you think someone really cares that much about how they die??

 

Were the Targs desperate to see the Robellion succeed?? Because that's the only logical conclussion from reading people who desperatly try to whitewash them, Rhaegar didn't abduct Lyanna but he nonetheless put no efforts aout stopping the lie grow to become what apparently everyone thought he did, Aerys had evidence of a betrayal, not to even mention how trustworthy is a confession under torture or why no one would trust such a plot to both Brandon or his squire,  but remained silent for reasons. The idea that Aerys didn't want to end the Stark or Baratheon line is curious, Ned and Robert weren't in their base of power and thus, they were pickable and vulnerable, good fucking luck, trying to get Benjen from Winterfell and Stannis and Renly from Storm's End and because those two were going to rebel anywhere 100% guaranteed,  so killing them was the easiest and even most logical outcome

 

Why Rickards moves were weird?? He wanted to marry his heir to Cat but Robert fell in love with Lyanna,  that was a total random event, a non planned event which happened to benefit the Starks greatly.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, divica said:

But the problem is that we do know rhaegar planned to do something in harrenhall. And given aerys and tywin's conflicts it is completly believable that he would have preferred that aerys died in dunkensdale.... It is hard to call someone a mad paranoid person when people are actually conspiring against him... 

I don’t think there’s evidence that Rhaegar wanted Aerys to die at Duskendale. Although it seems perfectly believable that the thought must have crossed Tywin’s mind. From the little we know, it looks like Rhaegar wanted to get the nobility behind him to find an acceptable and non-violent way of removing his father from power while keeping him safe. Too bad he didn’t act sooner, as I said. Also, being mad and paranoid and having people conspiring against you (because you’re mad and unfit to rule) are not mutually exclusive. 

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And another important detail is that we are never told why aerys wanted Ned and Robert dead. He didn t demand hostages, he didn t want to end the barateon and Stark line, he wanted those 2 people dead.

Because he was mad is my guess. He did demand a whole bunch of people come to KL, and they were all killed save one. 

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He certainly acused them of something and he had his reasons.

But that’s the point, there are no accusations that we know of, and to state that “he had his reasons” is silly. His “reasons” were that he was mad and unstable and cruel.

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The rebellion propaganda just used the fact that he was mad to make his accusations ridiculous.

Which accusations exactly? 

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And given the amount of northern lords aerys had at his disposition to torture it is very believable that someone told the king about a conspiracy against him... 

Very believable? I don’t see it. And we don’t even know the details of how it all played out... they could have been all summarily executed, for instance. The other thing is, that’s why torture doesn’t work; people under extreme situations will likely say whatever just to make it stop. So, even IF these northerners were tortured and even IF they said something, it still doesn’t make it true. There’s just too many pieces missing in this puzzle. The one thing we can be sure of, because it comes up many, many times and from many different sources, is that Aerys was a nutjob. 

[SeanF]

I don't think they had any choice but to rebel against Aerys.  His treatment of Rickard and Brandon Stark violated every norm of behaviour, as did his demand for the heads of Ned and Robert.

But I don't think the rebels had clean hands.  I don't think that Tywin would have taken such a dangerous step as murdering Elia and her children, (Creggan Stark sentenced men to death for betraying Aegon II) without getting the green light from the rebel leaders.  Ned was kept out of the loop, but I strongly suspect that Robert, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn knew what was going to happen.  Tywin was, after all, richly rewarded for his foul deed.  We can guess what would have happened to Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys, had they fallen into the rebels' hands.

[Mystical]

What was the goal of the thread? Aerys the saint? Aerys the martyr? Aerys the misunderstood good guy? Everyone else was the villain but him (and those around him)?

I find it it funny that some people argue that the realm was worse off because Aerys was removed and thousands died in a rebellion. Remind me how did the Targs come into power in Westeros? By bloodlessly being voted for democratically? How many thousands of people died so they could sit on a throne? Those people who argue for Starks/Baretheons/Arryns etc. to be the villains because thousands died in their rebellion, should equally call the Targs villains.

After all, why didn't the Targs try a different way? 'Hey guys, our home recently went kaboom and we are looking for a place to settle down. Is there any kingdom who has a piece of land for us to settle down?' If no kingdom wants them, move on to Essos. Move on until you find a piece of land that doesn't belong to anyone, therefore you don't have to kill anyone. And this way no one dies. But that's not what happened. They had WMDs and an army and used them to kill thousands to sit on a throne. And lets not even mention how many died in 5 freaking rebellions lead by the offspring of their own family because they couldn't keep it in their pants or went loco and messed up the succession.

The focus on recent history in order to condemn certain families or characters seems to be fueled by character/family bias and nothing else. After all, anyone with a clear view should understand that no family is perfect and no family has clean hands in their entire history. One should also be able to admit that a feudal contract exists and breaking said contract can have devastating consequences. Such as executing Lords or vassals nilly willy without proof or trial. The lengths some people go to to absolve Aerys for breaking the feudal contract because of some kind of supposed plot that has no textual evidence (as of yet) seems more than a little extreme IMO. And lets not forget that it wasn't just Aerys who screwed up here, his heir Rheagar did as well.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, divica said:

But aerys was at least right about rhaegar planning something. And probably right about Tywin wanting his death in dunkensdale and afterwards.

But Rhaegar was only planning something because his father was mad. 

7 hours ago, divica said:

And as I said above, just because we Don t know aerys motivations doesn t mean they didn t exist. Just that the rebells used his madness to make the accusations ridiculous and not mention them.

The two things are not mutually exclusive though. It can be true that Aerys had reason to be paranoid & that he was mad. Saying that the rebels "used" his madness to make accusations implies that the madness was a ploy. We know this isn't true. Aerys was mad, regardless of anything else. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded but if Aerys is mad (& he is) & he is seeing enemies in every corner (& he was) & starts killing people willy nilly (& he did) it doesn't really matter if one of those people may have actually been plotting to remove him from the throne. He needed removed from the throne so he created his own conspiracy. He acted in an irrational & obscene manner thinking people were plotting his downfall & thus created a situation where people had to orchestrate his downfall. 

7 hours ago, divica said:

They painted themselves as heroes and buried everything that contradicted this. Maybe with faegon and Danny arriving in westeros we will learn about the rebellion from more pro targ people...

Well I would say that the people who rescued the realm from the likes of the Mad King Aerys are indeed heroes but I don't remember them painting themselves as such. 

What did they bury that contradicted this? We have heard from some Pro-Targ people & they too say Aerys was mad & cruel. Dany doesn't know anything about Aerys other than what she has been told so I wouldn't expect any enlightenment from her. 

7 hours ago, divica said:

No matter how we paint it Rickard actions are very weird and clearly destabilize aerys power.

Which actions, specifically of Rickard's are weird? Which clearly destabilize Aerys's power? Marriage betrothals are not weird in the slightest nor do they destabilize any power so I assume you are talking about something else here? 

7 hours ago, divica said:

Brandon's squire surviving is very weird.

I wouldn't call it very weird but it is somewhat odd. Not so odd that it indicates Aerys was wrongfully dethroned though. It could be Brandon's squire said things that got him in Aerys's good graces & allowed him to live but that doesn't mean that what he said was true & not a ploy to avoid torture or death, nor that what he said was justifiable reason for Aerys to behave the way he did. 

Even if the squire told Aerys "Hey look, everyone & their brother is plotting against  you & this is specifically how" that doesn't mean Aerys is justified in just taking the squire at his word, without any evidence, & brutally murdering people with no trial or conviction. 

7 hours ago, divica said:

Aerys asking for Ned's and Robert's heads is very weird (they have no connection to the events in KL that led to Brandon's death)...

Well, it's weird because Aerys is crazy. He is pissed & nuts. 

They absolutely have a connection to the events in KL though. Ned is now Lord of WF because Aerys has murdered his father & brother - who would want to avenge them more than Ned? 

Brandon just rode up demanding Rhaegar come out for a duel for stealing his sister. Robert is the betrothed of that same sister so, again, reason to believe Robert may have an ax to grind with Aerys. 

He is trying to kill off all opposition. 

7 hours ago, divica said:

It is easy to blame all this on madness, but aerys wasn t irracional. He saw conspirações everywhere and was cruel. He wasn t batshit crazy... 

He is literally nicknamed the "MAD" king. He is absolutely irrational & batshit crazy. It's easy to blame it on madness because it is, madness. 

[frenin]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think they had any choice but to rebel against Aerys.  His treatment of Rickard and Brandon Stark violated every norm of behaviour, as did his demand for the heads of Ned and Robert.

But I don't think the rebels had clean hands.  I don't think that Tywin would have taken such a dangerous step as murdering Elia and her children, (Creggan Stark sentenced men to death for betraying Aegon II) without getting the green light from the rebel leaders.  Ned was kept out of the loop, but I strongly suspect that Robert, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn knew what was going to happen.  Tywin was, after all, richly rewarded for his foul deed.  We can guess what would have happened to Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys, had they fallen into the rebels' hands.

I find it unlikely, Tywin didn't have decided yet during the Trident and  Rhaegar's death did it for him. How could he have the time to do all that?? 

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

I find it unlikely, Tywin didn't have decided yet during the Trident and  Rhaegar's death did it for him. How could he have the time to do all that?? 

I think he would have had time to communicate with Hoster Tully and Robert himself.

[frenin]

31 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think he would have had time to communicate with Hoster Tully and Robert himself.

How?? After the Trident Tywin was running to get to KL first, Robert was wounded and  also heading to KL, it makes no sense that he could beat Ned if he needed to wait for the rebels approval and  the idea that he was in cahoots with them prior that is false, since Tywin's only concern was being in the winning side.

[Angel Eyes]

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

How?? After the Trident Tywin was running to get to KL first, Robert was wounded and  also heading to KL, it makes no sense that he could beat Ned if he needed to wait for the rebels approval and  the idea that he was in cahoots with them prior that is false, since Tywin's only concern was being in the winning side.

On the other hand, it’s interesting to ponder how Tywin got to King’s Landing before Ned, if the Trident is closer than Casterly Rock and Ned is moving with all available speed.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the other hand, it’s interesting to ponder how Tywin got to King’s Landing before Ned, if the Trident is closer than Casterly Rock and Ned is moving with all available speed.

A likely answer is that he wasn't in Casterly Rock, he had already marched when the news  reached him and  after that he raced  to KL.

[divica]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded but if Aerys is mad (& he is) & he is seeing enemies in every corner (& he was) & starts killing people willy nilly (& he did) it doesn't really matter if one of those people may have actually been plotting to remove him from the throne. He needed removed from the throne so he created his own conspiracy. He acted in an irrational & obscene manner thinking people were plotting his downfall & thus created a situation where people had to orchestrate his downfall. 

What I am saying is that because aerys saw conspiracies everywhere and used cruelty to try and stop them if he found out about a true conspiracy and acted to stop it then it is very easy for the conspirators to claim he was mad and imagining things. Whatever he acused ned and robert becomes a footnote in his list of conspiracies wether it was true or not because it is easy for the rebels to say it was false.

And I am not saying aerys was fit to rule. But that the acts that led to the rebelion might have been justified. It is like a criminal being punished for a diferente crime than those he comited.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But Rhaegar was only planning something because his father was mad.

But it shows that some of his madness is justified and sometimes right….

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Which actions, specifically of Rickard's are weird? Which clearly destabilize Aerys's power? Marriage betrothals are not weird in the slightest nor do they destabilize any power so I assume you are talking about something else here? 

Him marrying 2 of his kids to lords paramounts kids destabilize the targaryen power on the realm. What would happen if rickard wanted to act against the wishes of the king? Wouldn t the riverlands and stormlands help him instead of the king because he is familly?

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I wouldn't call it very weird but it is somewhat odd. Not so odd that it indicates Aerys was wrongfully dethroned though. It could be Brandon's squire said things that got him in Aerys's good graces & allowed him to live but that doesn't mean that what he said was true & not a ploy to avoid torture or death, nor that what he said was justifiable reason for Aerys to behave the way he did. 

Even if the squire told Aerys "Hey look, everyone & their brother is plotting against  you & this is specifically how" that doesn't mean Aerys is justified in just taking the squire at his word, without any evidence, & brutally murdering people with no trial or conviction.

I agree. But we don t know what really happened. Did he talk to some of the prisoners before killing them? did varys confirm the acusations with his spies? If he had enough evidence I think he is justified to kill traitors without a trial. He is the king and should be able to kill people that want to kill him...

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, it's weird because Aerys is crazy. He is pissed & nuts. 

They absolutely have a connection to the events in KL though. Ned is now Lord of WF because Aerys has murdered his father & brother - who would want to avenge them more than Ned? 

Brandon just rode up demanding Rhaegar come out for a duel for stealing his sister. Robert is the betrothed of that same sister so, again, reason to believe Robert may have an ax to grind with Aerys. 

He is trying to kill off all opposition. 

But why kill ned and robert and spare benjen and stannis? THAT is my problem.

You can t say aerys wants to kill ned because he might want revenge for killing brandon and say he wouldn t want to kill benjen for the same reasons. And if you say aerys wanted to kill robert instead of first trying to buy his loalty/aceptance that he lost lyanna then he would also want to kill stannis because he would be in the same situation as ned (after he kills robert)...

The only way to justifiy this behavious is saying aerys was batshit crazy… But aerys was paranoind and used cruelty to stop his conspiracies from happening. He wasn t really batshit crazy… There was some logic behind his actions…

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is literally nicknamed the "MAD" king. He is absolutely irrational & batshit crazy. It's easy to blame it on madness because it is, madness.

He was named the mad king by his enemies… Obviously they would name him something like that.

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think there’s evidence that Rhaegar wanted Aerys to die at Duskendale. Although it seems perfectly believable that the thought must have crossed Tywin’s mind. From the little we know, it looks like Rhaegar wanted to get the nobility behind him to find an acceptable and non-violent way of removing his father from power while keeping him safe. Too bad he didn’t act sooner, as I said. Also, being mad and paranoid and having people conspiring against you (because you’re mad and unfit to rule) are not mutually exclusive

Just like being mad and paranoid doesn t mean that sometimes he isn t  right in his conspiracies. This is the main question. Were aerys actions because of madness or did he actually have reasons to believe there was a conspiracy agains him?

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Because he was mad is my guess. He did demand a whole bunch of people come to KL, and they were all killed save one.

But you can justify him killing those people if they were part of the conspiracy. Why kill robert and ned and spare benjen and stannis? The younger brothers aren t that young… Benjen is basically in the same position as ned… Why kill one and spare the other?

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that’s the point, there are no accusations that we know of, and to state that “he had his reasons” is silly. His “reasons” were that he was mad and unstable and cruel.

Being mad isn t a reason. When he killed someone he said why he killed them. People might not agree to his reasons but there is some logic behing his actions...

He didn t just wake up and decided to kill important nobles… He wanted their head because in his mind they did something to desserve it. What does aerys think they did?

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very believable? I don’t see it. And we don’t even know the details of how it all played out... they could have been all summarily executed, for instance. The other thing is, that’s why torture doesn’t work; people under extreme situations will likely say whatever just to make it stop. So, even IF these northerners were tortured and even IF they said something, it still doesn’t make it true. There’s just too many pieces missing in this puzzle. The one thing we can be sure of, because it comes up many, many times and from many different sources, is that Aerys was a nutjob. 

But was aerys irrational? Did his conspiracies lack logic?

There is a diference between being mad because he believed that he had enemies everywhere and being mad because he acted irrational. And with our present information the only way to justify aerys actions is that is was completly irrational… While if we assume there was some conspiracy his action not only make sense but fit his cruel way of thinking.