Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

[Darryk]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Another night battle comparison with Winterfell: The Siege of Gondor. In contrast with Winterfell, Minas Tirith shows a pretty clear progression with how the different sides operate.

• The suicidal charge of 200 knights against Osgiliath across open ground where there are lots of Orcs with vantage points for shooting is meant to be idiotic; the point is to show that Denethor's judgment is being clouded by pride, grief and fear and Faramir is desperate enough to attempt such a move. Contrast with running cavalry (and light cavalry at that) into a wall of undead.
• Opening stages at the walls: While the Army of the Dead just overwhelm the forces of the living by steamrolling them (admittedly this works), the Orcs use a variety of tactics, physical and psychological. First they fling the severed heads of the 199 knights at the defenders to demoralize them, then follow that up with a constant catapult bombardment that lasts all day and through the night. Gondorian soldiers counter with their own catapult volley (a soldier mentions they're running out of rubble to use). Nazgul take out a number of the catapults while their shrieks drive many of the defenders to terror. And all the while siege towers inch closer to the vulnerable walls; some are destroyed, but others reach the wall and deploy.
• Assaulting the gate. The Orcs start off with a regular old battering ram, the Gondorian soldiers respond with arrow volleys so fierce that the Orcs with the ram have to climb over their own dead to even reach the gate. So the Orc commander Gothmog sends an even bigger battering ram known as Grond (so named for the hammer used by Sauron's master Morgoth), which breaches the gate. This forces Gandalf to abandon attempts to defend the walls and concentrate on the gate. Trolls enter first as shock troops to soak up arrow volleys and break lines. At that point it becomes a disorganized melee once the rest of Sauron's armies move into the city.
• The forces of the Living at Winterfell don't really do much outside of disorganized arrow fire, a single salvo of trebuchets, and a trench that is eventually crossed. They also had no outposts to see the positions of where the Dead are, which Osgiliath served as.

The dumbest part of the Battle of Winterfell: Trebuchets IN FRONT OF THE WALLS 

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Battle for Minas Tirith is fine, until Aragorn brings the green soap bubbles of death to the fight, which makes the efforts of the fighters redundant.

But, prior to that, the tactics of both sides mostly make sense.  The Witch King has brought such a vast army, he has to attack at once.  A prolonged siege would see his soldiers starve.

For some reason, unlike the books, civilians were not evacuated, however.  Likewise, no one thought to send civilians South from Winterfell.

Yeah one of my few major gripes with the trilogy was the army of the dead showing up at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Would've been a lot more powerful if Aragorn showed up with an army of Dunedain.

[Angel Eyes]

11 minutes ago, Darryk said:

 

Yeah one of my few major gripes with the trilogy was the army of the dead showing up at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Would've been a lot more powerful if Aragorn showed up with an army of Dunedain.

This is no army of Dunedain, only small companies. That's the Rangers.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:49 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Another continuity issue from Season 1: In "Lord Snow", Robert mentions that the first man he killed was a Tarly at the Battles of Summerhall. Since the battles were fought in the Stormlands, what was a Tarly from the Reach doing in the Stormlands? Say, was there a Tarly brother we don't know about fostering in the Stormlands under Lord Fell to give an example?

I don't think that's a continuity issue.

The Tarly that was slain could've been fostered or he could've been a squire or an actual knight. Maybe he was the son- or brother-in-law of a Stormlander. Maybe could've even Randyll Tarly's father or uncle.

We don't have a complete family tree of House Tarly and I imagine that the marcher lords share close bonds even if they are from different regions....so it's not unbelievable that there would be a Tarly in the Stormlands.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/19/2022 at 5:37 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I expect, like the recent HotD articles coming out, we'll hear even more interesting comments.

Sorry it took me so long to respond.  I'm in and out of here a lot, don't post much because Real Life is a bit crazy and will be for awhile, I think.  

I am going to watch HotD (or try), but I'm sorry, I think Daemon Targaryen should have a bit of sex appeal, and I don't expect I will change my mind on Dr. Who, LOL  

There's this podcast too (didn't listen yet).

It's funny to see HBO hyping up Targaryens, when they just made them a nuisance for Starks and Lannisters to overcome so they could go back to business as usual on the show.

Jon is a Targaryen and yet, nobody thinks of him as one, because finding out he was one meant nothing to him, and not long after that, he killed the only other living Targaryen.

[Angel Eyes]

12 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

There's this podcast too (didn't listen yet).

It's funny to see HBO hyping up Targaryens, when they just made them a nuisance for Starks and Lannisters to overcome so they could go back to business as usual on the show.

Jon is a Targaryen and yet, nobody thinks of him as one, because finding out he was one meant nothing to him, and not long after that, he killed the only other living Targaryen.

Well sure it meant something to him, he no longer wanted to have sex with Daenerys.

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/19/2022 at 10:12 PM, SeanF said:

The Battle for Minas Tirith is fine, until Aragorn brings the green soap bubbles of death to the fight, which makes the efforts of the fighters redundant.

But, prior to that, the tactics of both sides mostly make sense.  The Witch King has brought such a vast army, he has to attack at once.  A prolonged siege would see his soldiers starve.

For some reason, unlike the books, civilians were not evacuated, however.  Likewise, no one thought to send civilians South from Winterfell.

I intentionally left the part about the green soap bubbles of death out of evaluation, since the cavalry doesn't come to Winterfell (this also applies to the Battle on the Pelennor Fields).

In the case of the civilians Denethor is clearly not of sound mind in the films, which would explain his lack of foresight (contrast to the books where he'd had the civilians evacuated and the beacons lit, though he wouldn't think it would be effective).

[Le Cygne]

Oh dear, well, that's one way of pretending massive amounts of people didn't like season 8. (Scroll to Wars to Come section.)

At least the guy who wrote the article said this: "To be fair, it’s not difficult to find Thrones fans in real life who are also critical of the ending."

“The fucking toxic internet and these podcasts out there saying that season eight left such a bad impression that people say, ‘Oh, I’m never going to watch them again,'” Martin says. “I don’t trust them anymore.”

“It was a social media backlash,” Bloys says, sounding weary of the subject. “I think in multiple parts of our society, we are reminding ourselves that Twitter is not real life. We knew it was going to be divisive and, of course, you want all fans to be happy, but that’s never going to happen. There weren’t a lot of people walking around despondent or upset. It’s a take that reads well but probably doesn’t fully reflect viewer feelings.”

To be fair, it’s not difficult to find Thrones fans in real life who are also critical of the ending. Yet it seems highly likely that viewers who loved the original series and Martin’s books will feel compelled to check out the new show too.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/inside-house-of-the-dragon-trailer-cast-1235182776/

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh dear, well, that's one way of pretending massive amounts of people didn't like season 8. (Scroll to Wars to Come section.)

At least the guy who wrote the article said this: "To be fair, it’s not difficult to find Thrones fans in real life who are also critical of the ending."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/inside-house-of-the-dragon-trailer-cast-1235182776/

It’s completely dishonest.  Any number of people who loved the books, or loved earlier seasons of the show, detested Season Shit.  

[Le Cygne]

48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s completely dishonest.  Any number of people who loved the books, or loved earlier seasons of the show, detested Season Shit.  

Yep. And it's disingenuous to make tons of money hyping a show on social media/the internet, then blast it as some abstract thing that doesn't actually involve real people when it doesn't go your way.

File these with the "they just didn't want it to end" talking points. One day they might consider 1) owning up to their mistakes and 2) listening to people instead of making excuses (and insulting them).

[Darryk]

Well all these studios have good propaganda machines.

Also Martin has to say stuff like this because he's got a good relationship with HBO.

Anyway I don't blame HBO for the mess that was season 8 and am still keen to watch HOTD cause the production and acting looks excellent, as you'd expect from an HBO show.

[Le Cygne]

I think they know they played a part in the disaster (whether from lack of oversight to not delivering the rest of the story) or they wouldn't be so cranky about it.

(As for the new show, not interested. I just watched the trailer, and it looks very GoT to me, a game of thrones. I would have preferred Dunk and Egg, or better yet, ASOIAF.)

[Le Cygne]

This is a "look at how the showrunners took those dragons in the final two seasons and purposefully and maliciously used them against us to further their own poorly written narrative":

"The use of the dragons against us was a descent that started slow subtle and sinister but one that eventually plunged into pure abject nonsense... Huge swaths of the last two seasons problems are actually centered on the dragons and the show using them as tools to knowingly manipulate the audience. In fact many of the same narrative tools that worked to endear us to the dragons were used to make us accept the bad writing in hopes of something better on the horizon. With hindsight being 20/20, I'll just say it, there was nothing better...

"All that was required for Daenerys was for her to fly her dragons to King's Landing, immediately see the Red Keep, and capture Cersei. This could have been done with no leading or no planning whatsoever... Tyrion warns that using the dragons against King's Landing would kill tens of thousands of innocent bystanders, but what that statement does is wipe away all the previously established nuance that the show went out of its way to create... The show inexplicably is literally treating them as indiscriminate killing machines when there is a plethora of evidence to the contrary...

"Across seasons 7 and 8 there isn't a single dedicated scene or moment that properly explores Daenerys' feelings about her children dying or her coping mechanisms or lack thereof. In fact almost the opposite happens shortly after the death of Viserion. Daenerys takes the dragons and Jon out for a spin seemingly without a care in the world... It is hard for me to accept Dany's subdued reaction to seeing her child murdered when the show has previously and plainly showed us how emotional she becomes when the situation concerns the safety of her dragons...

"This connection between Jon and the dragons is made, creating a tone where such a connection would be pivotal to the outcome of the plot, only for nothing to come of it... When Rhaegal was shot out of the sky in a surprisingly grotesque way, I don't even think there was a scene of Jon mourning this dragon named after his father, and that's because Jon didn't care about these lizards... The dragons were underhandedly used to hype up Jon's narrative potential while ultimately having no impact on his personal journey..."

(added/fixed quotes)

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

26 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Every time I see videos like this, the part they praise is what GRRM wrote that was used in the early seasons, and the part they blast is when Benioff/Weiss strayed/wrote their own stuff.

This one is "a one year late look at how the showrunners took those dragons in the final two seasons and purposefully and maliciously used them against us to further their own poorly written narrative":

"The use of the dragons against us was a descent that started slow subtle and sinister but one that eventually plunged into pure abject nonsense... Huge swaths of the last two seasons problems are actually centered on the dragons and the show using them as tools to knowingly manipulate the audience. In fact many of the same narrative tools that worked to endear us to the dragons were used to make us accept the bad writing in hopes of something better on the horizon. With hindsight being 20/20, I'll just say it there was nothing better...

"All that was required for Daenerys was for her to fly her dragons to King's Landing immediately sees the Red Keep and capture Cersei this could have been done with no leading or no planning whatsoever... Tyrion warns that using the dragons against King's Landing would kill tens of thousands of innocent bystanders, but what that statement does is wipe away all the previously established nuance that the show went out of its way to create... The show inexplicably is literally treating them as indiscriminate killing machines when there is a plethora of evidence to the contrary...

"This connection between Jon and the dragons is made, creating a tone where such a connection would be pivotal to the outcome of the plot only for nothing to come of it... When Rhaegal was shot out of the sky in a surprisingly grotesque way, I don't even think there was a scene of Jon mourning this dragon named after his father, and that's because Jon didn't care about these lizards... The dragons were underhandedly used to hype up Jon's narrative potential while ultimately having no impact on his personal journey..."

 

I might be biased because I never really liked dragons, but their novelty seemed to wear off after seeing them in action a few times. I’ve seen very little said about them, good or bad, in all the many analyses of GOT. I wonder how that will impact HOTD.

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

This is a "look at how the showrunners took those dragons in the final two seasons and purposefully and maliciously used them against us to further their own poorly written narrative":

"The use of the dragons against us was a descent that started slow subtle and sinister but one that eventually plunged into pure abject nonsense... Huge swaths of the last two seasons problems are actually centered on the dragons and the show using them as tools to knowingly manipulate the audience. In fact many of the same narrative tools that worked to endear us to the dragons were used to make us accept the bad writing in hopes of something better on the horizon. With hindsight being 20/20, I'll just say it there was nothing better...

"All that was required for Daenerys was for her to fly her dragons to King's Landing immediately sees the Red Keep and capture Cersei this could have been done with no leading or no planning whatsoever... Tyrion warns that using the dragons against King's Landing would kill tens of thousands of innocent bystanders, but what that statement does is wipe away all the previously established nuance that the show went out of its way to create... The show inexplicably is literally treating them as indiscriminate killing machines when there is a plethora of evidence to the contrary...

"This connection between Jon and the dragons is made, creating a tone where such a connection would be pivotal to the outcome of the plot only for nothing to come of it... When Rhaegal was shot out of the sky in a surprisingly grotesque way, I don't even think there was a scene of Jon mourning this dragon named after his father, and that's because Jon didn't care about these lizards... The dragons were underhandedly used to hype up Jon's narrative potential while ultimately having no impact on his personal journey..."

 

Tyrion’s statement was bollocks (like everything that came out of his mouth by this stage) as the Red Keep is located on a peninsula, away from the city.  Destroying the Red Keep would have killed civilians within it, but far fewer than would have died  by the  prolonged, convoluted, war that Tyrion favoured.

[Darryk]

It would've been more interesting if Tyrion's bad advice was a result of inner conflict as to whether to help her defeat House Lannister, but of course that doesn't fit in with the show's version of Tyrion who would never do anything malicious.

[Angel Eyes]

34 minutes ago, Darryk said:

It would've been more interesting if Tyrion's bad advice was a result of inner conflict as to whether to help her defeat House Lannister, but of course that doesn't fit in with the show's version of Tyrion who would never do anything malicious.

Well, it is a point of discussion between him and Daenerys about whether or not he's holding back. That being said Tyrion isn't afraid to do malicious stuff, particularly in the earlier seasons, and has no problems about stabbing someone in the back as shown in Season 5 during the pit battle.

[Darryk]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it is a point of discussion between him and Daenerys about whether or not he's holding back. That being said Tyrion isn't afraid to do malicious stuff, particularly in the earlier seasons, and has no problems about stabbing someone in the back as shown in Season 5 during the pit battle.

Yeah but the discussion you refer to seemed more intended to make Dany look paranoid than to make Tyrion's motivations suspicious.

Earlier in the season Tyrion was still a bit more loyal to the book version; from about season 3 or 4 onwards he gradually became a classic good guy.

Stabbing someone in the back isn't really a form of subtle characterization.

[SeanF]

50 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it is a point of discussion between him and Daenerys about whether or not he's holding back. That being said Tyrion isn't afraid to do malicious stuff, particularly in the earlier seasons, and has no problems about stabbing someone in the back as shown in Season 5 during the pit battle.

I think there are only two ways of rationalising Tyrion’s behaviour and advice in Seasons 7 and 8:-

1.  He’s an overpromoted nonentity, whose limitations are quite obvious, once he’s no longer working with his father and sister,

2.  He’s deliberately giving Dany bad advice, in order to ensure that his siblings aren’t defeated.  That’s quite consistent with his wanting to starve, rather than storm Kings Landing, as Cersei would not starve.  It’s consistent with his efforts to rescue her at the end and explains his throwing down his pin of office, after seeing his siblings’ corpses.

Of course, poor writing is the likeliest explanation.

[Angel Eyes]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there are only two ways of rationalising Tyrion’s behaviour and advice in Seasons 7 and 8:-

1.  He’s an overpromoted nonentity, whose limitations are quite obvious, once he’s no longer working with his father and sister,

2.  He’s deliberately giving Dany bad advice, in order to ensure that his siblings aren’t defeated.  That’s quite consistent with his wanting to starve, rather than storm Kings Landing, as Cersei would not starve.  It’s consistent with his efforts to rescue her at the end and explains his throwing down his pin of office, after seeing his siblings’ corpses.

Of course, poor writing is the likeliest explanation.

It could tie back into your theories of mercy being shown as bad throughout the books and show, given that Tyrion holding back against his siblings is what screws his side over.

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It could tie back into your theories of mercy being shown as bad throughout the books and show, given that Tyrion holding back against his siblings is what screws his side over.

The show was all over the place in its portrayal of violence.  Arya’s gruesome killings, Ramsay being fed to dogs, Tyrion’s shooting his father were all meant to be fist-pumping moments.  But, then we got stupidities like Barristan saying “answer injustice with mercy” or the idea the Tarlys should be offered unconditional forgiveness, or bells meaning surrender, completely at variance with the values and facts that had been established in this world.