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Gramse

The Others "inside" man

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14 hours ago, Gramse said:

Please explain to me how a faceless man ends up bound to the wall? 

Jaqen is part of Arya's story. Why he was in jail matters not except for jovial chatter and banter.  Jaqen was part of a story telling device to get Arya to Braavos. As in martin's story expansion or planting the garden. Jaqen seems to have moved on and is now at the Citadel disquised as Pate.

On 3/1/2019 at 3:43 AM, The Transporter said:

A well-meaning Stark already caused trouble at the wall (Jon). 

What say you and I take the focus off Stark and look at some of the many people in the story who place importance on the red comet.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V    But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"        "He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled.        The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."      Her words seemed to make the king desperately uncomfortable, Sam saw./

No, I don't think the Others have an "inside man."

22 hours ago, Gramse said:

Varys serves "The Realm", but failed to specify whose realm. Human realm or the Others realm?

Varys is too busy with what appears to be a plan to put a Targ on the Iron Throne to be involved with the Others who haven't existed in the realm for 8000 years. Then again maybe the Others have been hanging around in the heart of winter waiting until the red comet shows itself.   "They say the red comet is a herald of a new age. A messenger from the gods."

 

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The Others do need an inside man , they have been gone so long as to be considered to be fairy stories .  IMHO the inside man is Euron  or Bowen Marsh or the missing Benjen .

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Posted (edited)

Faerie story's and sidhe like and unknown languages.   Did I get that Irish word spelled correctly? Coz iffn' I did it means I gotta rethink some stuff ---

Sidhe (pronounced Shee) is an Irish word that literally means a mound of earth. ... The sidhe were also called the people of the mounds, or the good people. The belief in the sidhe is a part of Ireland's pre-Christian religion, and their gods were the direct ancestors of the sidhe.

How about this burp ---     Aos Sí     The aos sí is the Irish term for a supernatural race in Irish mythology and Scottish mythology, comparable to the fairies or elves. They are said to live underground in fairy mounds, across the western sea, or in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans.

Please do not ask me to pull the martin comparison of the Others to sidhe quote. I canna do it. Maybe some kind heart helpful soul will.

edit via wiki:   According to George R. R. Martin, the Others "are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous."[5] Further, although Old Nan describes the Others as "dead things",[6] Martin has stated that the Others are not dead.[5]

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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32 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Please do not ask me to pull the martin comparison of the Others to sidhe quote. I canna do it. Maybe some kind heart helpful soul will.

"The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. "

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4 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. "

Thanks. Verra nice of ya.

Are ya Irish by any chance?  

Aos Sí kinda reminds me of martins use of Azor Ahai.

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On 2/28/2019 at 3:23 PM, Gramse said:

Ponder the idea that the Others have a man on the "inside" south of the wall. By inside I mean a person in the enemy camp clearing way for them in subtle ways and perhaps even gives them information.

What would this person do?

1. Perhaps he would try to weaken the North in some ways, since this is the region closest to The Wall and most likely to help them if The Others should attack.

2. Perhaps he would want to weaken or make the northern lords dislike The Wall and the men there. He would try to make people "forget" about the wall.

3. One would most likely want to create wars and food to weaken mankind.

4. Most certainly would such a "man" would do everything in his power to stop Stannis and "the red witch" with her fire magic. As fire is effective against wights and perhaps the fire magic also.

 

As a matter of fact, there is such a person doing exactly this thing. 

It is a person who got his job after his predecessor left for the wall and joined a white tree. And the man who replaced him is a necromancer. Odd, isn't it? 

He is described as a wizard or similar numerous times and he is associated with blue magic and blue flames when he lost his manhood. He is of course Varys the... Spider. We have all been deceived, there is a missing word in his "name", it should read Varys the ICE spider. 

I wrote a longer article about it here:

 

Varys tried to save King Aerys from his enemies.  He supports the Targaryen restoration which is for the best of humanity.  If the Others have an inside man then it's more like an inside family.  The Starks have significant connections to the White Walkers and may share the same bloodline.  A Stark must always be in Winterfell to await the coming of their gods.  The frozen corpses of the kings of winter lie in state while they wait for the White Walkers to return and give them life again.  Although they forgot to read the fine print about coming back as ice zombies.

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On 3/2/2019 at 8:00 PM, Gramse said:

You are right I forgot that happened with the gold cloaks. 

But we don't know if he have influence over some men in the gold cloaks, or want to use it to send someone else there too with a secret mission. 

Anyway it's just one tiny act against his major plot.

We can certainly say that Varys' main focus isn't the Wall or even the Others (about who he might not know much/anything) but he is also one of the few characters besides Tyrion who actually occasionally thinks of the needs of the Watch.

And that doesn't make it likely he is working with the Others or anything of that sort.

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The Others "inside" man is Jon Snow.  He's not working for them but his decisions and his actions opened the door for them.  There will be a battle at the wall between the Watch and the wildlings because of what Jon did to rescue Arya.  

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On 3/3/2019 at 9:48 AM, E.S. Dinah said:

they forgot to read the fine print about coming back as ice zombies

Allow me to bang my gavel hard and repeatedly at this time to create the impression that what I say next matters:

This is not the best usage of Stark zombies!   It's ..... prurient!   Blatant antiStarkism!

The threat to humans is already existential from the regular run of the mill white walkers alone, so adding Stark zombies to their ranks as betrayers of mankind accomplishes very little. 

 I would much rather imagine the Stark kings of old knew the fine print exquisitely well.  They knew they were the valhalla army of the armageddon, and they knew they'd be needed against the Others.  The Others may have suffered a horrible betrayal as part of their past that's been purposely covered up by maesters, but the Starks did it in the interest of mankind.   They must be at Winterfell to turn the ignition key on waking the sleepers when prompted by the old gods.

Stark blood is the gatekeeper blood, which explains why Craster is worth negotiating babies from, so Others can infiltrate that bloodline and cheat their way through the gate or perhaps even contest for control of humanity's valhalla forces?  Who knows.

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55 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

The threat to humans is already existential from the regular run of the mill white walkers alone, so adding Stark zombies to their ranks as betrayers of mankind accomplishes very little. 

Redeemers of mankind.  Mankind has become so effing vile and corrupt that the board needs to be swept clean and the game started afresh.  That is the role of the Starks.

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On 2/28/2019 at 3:23 PM, Gramse said:

Ponder the idea that the Others have a man on the "inside" south of the wall. By inside I mean a person in the enemy camp clearing way for them in subtle ways and perhaps even gives them information.

What would this person do?

1. Perhaps he would try to weaken the North in some ways, since this is the region closest to The Wall and most likely to help them if The Others should attack.

2. Perhaps he would want to weaken or make the northern lords dislike The Wall and the men there. He would try to make people "forget" about the wall.

3. One would most likely want to create wars and food to weaken mankind.

4. Most certainly would such a "man" would do everything in his power to stop Stannis and "the red witch" with her fire magic. As fire is effective against wights and perhaps the fire magic also.

 

As a matter of fact, there is such a person doing exactly this thing. 

It is a person who got his job after his predecessor left for the wall and joined a white tree. And the man who replaced him is a necromancer. Odd, isn't it? 

He is described as a wizard or similar numerous times and he is associated with blue magic and blue flames when he lost his manhood. He is of course Varys the... Spider. We have all been deceived, there is a missing word in his "name", it should read Varys the ICE spider. 

I wrote a longer article about it here:

 

Eh, not bad, but consider another possibility:

This mole south of the wall would actually be descended from Others, or wights, sharing common traits. Let's imagine that before the Night King and Queen were killed, their last "sacrifice" was rescued and has been able to skinchange from one human to another throughout the years. And that "person" would now be the sitting lord of a house that might even have taken a sigil of a man with no skin.

What might this human-Other/wight half-breed look like? Well, he probably would me pale and hairless, and probably wouldn't sweat. His eyes would be an unusually strange color. His voice might be mesmerizing, able to silence even big boisterous louts like the Greatjon with nary a whisper. And he would probably have to leech himself constantly in order to prevent the black blood from pooling in his extremities.

And when the time was right, he would maneuver himself to claim his next skinchange victim so as to become Lord of Winterfell just as the Other invasion is gathering steam.

Sound like anybody we know?

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sound like anybody we know?

This one is better

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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On 3/3/2019 at 12:48 PM, E.S. Dinah said:

Varys tried to save King Aerys from his enemies.  He supports the Targaryen restoration which is for the best of humanity.  If the Others have an inside man then it's more like an inside family.  The Starks have significant connections to the White Walkers and may share the same bloodline.  A Stark must always be in Winterfell to await the coming of their gods.  The frozen corpses of the kings of winter lie in state while they wait for the White Walkers to return and give them life again.  Although they forgot to read the fine print about coming back as ice zombies.

I like this explanation.  

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Allow me to bang my gavel hard and repeatedly at this time to create the impression that what I say next matters:

This is not the best usage of Stark zombies!   It's ..... prurient!   Blatant antiStarkism!

The threat to humans is already existential from the regular run of the mill white walkers alone, so adding Stark zombies to their ranks as betrayers of mankind accomplishes very little. 

 I would much rather imagine the Stark kings of old knew the fine print exquisitely well.  They knew they were the valhalla army of the armageddon, and they knew they'd be needed against the Others.  The Others may have suffered a horrible betrayal as part of their past that's been purposely covered up by maesters, but the Starks did it in the interest of mankind.   They must be at Winterfell to turn the ignition key on waking the sleepers when prompted by the old gods.

Stark blood is the gatekeeper blood, which explains why Craster is worth negotiating babies from, so Others can infiltrate that bloodline and cheat their way through the gate or perhaps even contest for control of humanity's valhalla forces?  Who knows.

This is uncharacteristic of the Starks.  They have been shown as selfish people thus far.  I don't foresee them making a U-turn and putting what's best for other people ahead of their own interests.  

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Varys? Hell no. Varys is playing a very human game. Of course it is possible that once Aegon takes the IT, they will ignore the threat in the North, because they have their hands full in other conflicts.

If you want to look for an "insider" you need to look for someone who would sell humanity for power. There is only one character that fits and even that is contentious.

 

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On 3/1/2019 at 3:43 AM, The Transporter said:

The "traitor" is not Varys.  It's the Starks.  This is a song of ice and fire.  The Starks are ice.  

A well-meaning Stark already caused trouble at the wall (Jon).  Robb ignorantly marched the most able bodied among the north to the south to rescue his family.  Eddard executed the man with the right message (Gared) of warning.  So if the Others have an agent working for them, it's the Starks.  They don't know it yet.  They have so far been acting emotionally and ignorantly but their actions are hurting Westeros.

That family has a history of breaking oaths and rebellion.  It's not out of the question for the remaining Starks to forsake humanity. 

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Littlefinger did the most damage and was the most inside.   He ended the Starks, as far as anyone but us knows.  So that'd be a big checked box from the Others' perspective.   He ruined the readiness of the realm to face an outside threat, kept them from laying aside grain for the winter, the war destroyed many septs and unraveled the people's confidence in the crown, divided regions with the memory of recent atrocities,  

If Pete is unconnected with the Others, then he has outperformed any 'Insider' the Others may have.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Littlefinger did the most damage and was the most inside.   He ended the Starks, as far as anyone but us knows.  So that'd be a big checked box from the Others' perspective.   He ruined the readiness of the realm to face an outside threat, kept them from laying aside grain for the winter, the war destroyed many septs and unraveled the people's confidence in the crown, divided regions with the memory of recent atrocities,  

If Pete is unconnected with the Others, then he has outperformed any 'Insider' the Others may have.

I agree with you, Petyr has done a very good job destabilizing Westeros, still wondering what his endgame might be, merely personal gain?  Or is he working for a Braavos/Faceless/Others alliance? (did Petyr actually die from his wounds and get replaced by a doppleganger?)
 

And I think Petyr Baelish's Mockingbird sigil is a reference to the real-world Operation Mockingbird, which was a propaganda/psyop campaign in which the CIA had a network of journalists that worked for them (either actual CIA assets or they were bribed) and the journalists would publish whatever info the Deep State wanted the public to hear--the idea being that the public trusted journalists and would be less skeptical of information coming from them and thus they could more effectively sway public opinion (usually towards war).  George got his masters in journalism and taught journalism at Clarke College, so he was almost certainly aware of this.

A mockingbird can mimic the voices of other birds. 

Petyr spreads disinfo to cause warfare and strife.  He did it with Lysa, Tyrion's blade, Stannis getting cucked by Patchface  . . .  what else?

 

Is he just a metaphor for the deep state eroding a nation?

 

 

petra means "stone" his family's sigil was a stone giant.

In Old French bailis means "debt collector" among other things.

Baelish might have the white worm symbolism of Bloodraven, the Kindly Man, and Pyat, as Baylisascaris is a category of white parasitic worms, see also Lamiya-Bailis from Dying of the Light)

In Latin, Baiulus means "carrier" as in "carrier pigeon" that carries messages, or "one who carries an activity out, manager"

Edited by By Odin's Beard

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5 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Littlefinger did the most damage and was the most inside.   He ended the Starks, as far as anyone but us knows.  So that'd be a big checked box from the Others' perspective.   He ruined the readiness of the realm to face an outside threat, kept them from laying aside grain for the winter, the war destroyed many septs and unraveled the people's confidence in the crown, divided regions with the memory of recent atrocities,  

If Pete is unconnected with the Others, then he has outperformed any 'Insider' the Others may have.

Pete outperformed many possible insiders except Jon.  Jon was in the best position to help defend the Wall against the Others but his obsession with Arya and his desire to avenge the Starks badly compromised his dedication to his duties. 

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2 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Petyr has done a very good job destabilizing Westeros, still wondering what his endgame might be, merely personal gain?  Or is he working for a Braavos/Faceless/Others alliance? (did Petyr actually die from his wounds and get replaced by a doppleganger?)

Fun is fun. Merely my perspective but you gotta see why ya ain't taken seriously. So dunna get all wounded when sumbody checks ya.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Fun is fun. Merely my perspective but you gotta see why ya ain't taken seriously. So dunna get all wounded when sumbody checks ya.

Glass houses, I know truth isn't a popularity contest and measuring self-worth by social media likes is not healthy, but since decided to cross-thread harass me, and you brought it up, you have 6 "likes and thanks" on your 2 most recent pages of comments, and I have 17, so if I am not taken seriously, you are taken a 1/3rd as seriously as I am. (I know people are just going to upvote you for me saying this). 

Let's keep things civil from now on.

 

I was just horsing around with that last comment about the doppleganger.  Someone else mentioned Bolt-On so I was trying to up the ante.  But in a story with at least two separate in utero blood magic soul thefts, a Littlefinger body theft is not out of the realm of possibility, especially since George said "Puppet Masters" was one of his favorite books, and there is a character named "pod" in this story, and the Faceless Men are capable of this sort of thing.

 

I do think that all of Braavos is a death cult that has ties to the Others though:

Celebration of the Unmasking of Uthero: "The anniversary of the Uncloaking is celebrated every year in Braavos with ten days of feasting and masked revelry—a festival like none other in all the known world, culminating at midnight on the tenth day, when the Titan roars and tens of thousands of revelers and celebrants remove their masks as one."

"Uthero" is very similar to "Other", at midnight they remove their masks--during the Long Night they reveal their true face, and the Titan roars, the Titan is a metaphor for the weirwood. 

In the House of the Worm, everyone lives underground because the sun has gone cold, and they hold a masquerade every 4 years, during the party they reveal the black and dying sun and they all remove their masks,--it is like a celebration of death and decay and nihilism.  The main character is essentially Jaime, and he tries to stop the slide into death and darkness.

Bloodraven, the Kindly Man, and Pyat all have the "white worm" symbolism, which is the god of death in that story.

 

In book 1, the Others, the Old Gods (and uncarved heart trees), and the Faceless Men are all described as Faceless.

 

Braavos and the Faceless Men are all about masks, and we are told not to trust people who wear masks:

"He wore an owl mask when he spoke to you. By now he could be a jackal, a tiger, a sloth. Ser Barristan had hated the masks from the start and never more than now. Honest men should never need to hide their faces. "

"Khaleesi, better a man should swallow scorpions than trust in the spawn of shadows, who dare not show their face beneath the sun. It is known."

"There's been too much going around," Meera insisted, "and too many secrets. I don't like it. I don't like him. And I don't trust him. Those hands of his are bad enough. He hides his face, and will not speak a name. Who is he? What is he?"

"Most sinister of all the sorcerers of Asshai are the shadowbinders, whose lacquered masks hide their faces from the eyes of gods and men."

 

 

Edited by By Odin's Beard

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