Discussing Sansa XXXIV: Winterfell Is Yours, Your Grace

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa didnt even do anything that outrageous and Dany thought Sansa was disrespecting her? What a sensitive little flower. 

All rulers are.  If the shoe was on the other foot, Sansa would be pissed too.  And for good reason.

One of the worst things that can happen to any kind of leader, whether it be a manager at fast food joint or a Queen of a fictional world, is to be publicly undermined or sassed by your subordinates.  Failing to deal with that, usually harshly, often leads to seeds of open rebellion.

[Ser Gareth]

3 hours ago, Mystical said:

Because Lyanna is awesome and 'feminist' and a meme machine. Different rules for different characters, remember?

And yet the WRITERS are MAKING TIME FOR THIS. Why are you blaming the characters for shitty ass writing? Btw it's fine for Jon and Dany to cruise around on dragons and have some nookie when the AotD can literally be at WF's doorstep any second. That doesn't fall into the category of 'no time for this'? Oh wait, it's fine if they do this stuff. God forbid people actually spend time on useful things like figuring out how to feed over 100k people so the army doesn't march on an empty stomach. But that's wasting time for you? Hope you never will partake in a war then where you will find out that hungry soldiers are useless.

It's even funnier when one thinks about the fact that the idiot brigade is the one to bring the wall down through their moronic weight hunt. And lets hope no one finds out about all the food that Dany burned.

It's laughable that people argue Dany should go south then if the North doesn't want her. The NK won't stop at the North, nor Westeros for that matter. Dany will face him and his army sooner or later. And she is stuck in Westeros anyway. And she has nothing to feed her armies with last I checked. No ships to bring in more from the Free Cities. She burned the food from one of the most fertile regions. Whether her fans want to admit it or not, Dany has no choice but to fight the AotD. Let her go south, the AoTD will only grow bigger when they defeat anything between them and wherever south Dany is. Fandom 'logic' is hilarious.

Keep it in the rant and rave thread please.

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I'd say that of all the characters from the beginning, her character arc has been the best. She started off as an irritatingly stupid little girl and has been through so much to develop into the strong and wise woman she is now. I'm pretty sure she'll be one of the very few still standing at the end - whether or not she sits on the throne is the least interesting aspect in my view.

Equally intriguingly, however, for me is Dany's character arc. I think the masses are being suckered by GRRM's misdirection here. Yes, she similarly starts as a naive young girl and develops into a strong woman, but .... the way she's developing is to be gradually emulating her mad father. She's going to turn out to be the"big bad" - she and her dragons (Fire) need to go to cancel out the Others (Ice).

That's not to say Jon and Sansa will end up lovey-dovey - too icky for me, and I suspect Jon will end up dead/undead. But Sansa will survive.

 

The one thing the show is not emphasizing, or even bothering to include, is Sansa's considerable charm (at least the character in the book) and grace.  Yes, she's become stronger; but she seems to have lost her compassion and manners; she's either sulking or being snippy/mean (though sometimes she has cause) to everyone other than (at the moment) Arya.  I prefer the book version; though I hope that TV-Sansa survives.  And it is refreshing to have Arya and Sansa getting along.

As far as Dany's arc goes; I keep remembering that it's mentioned in the book how her father, Aerys, was a charming young man and eventually descended into paranoia and madness.  I think that Dany will die before she gets that far; but I would not want to see her ruling Westeros.

[Rose of Red Lake]

21 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

All rulers are.  If the shoe was on the other foot, Sansa would be pissed too.  And for good reason.

One of the worst things that can happen to any kind of leader, whether it be a manager at fast food joint or a Queen of a fictional world, is to be publicly undermined or sassed by your subordinates.  Failing to deal with that, usually harshly, often leads to seeds of open rebellion.

Forcing subordinates to like you gets your ass killed in this show. And extending this to your fast food analogy, everyone hates that kind of boss and mocks them behind their back. 

If Dany would just chill for a moment and understand where they're coming from - like a good ruler would - she might realize she can win them over by saving them first and worry about titles later.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Forcing subordinates to like you gets your ass killed in this show. And extending this to your fast food analogy, everyone hates that kind of boss and mocks them behind their back. 

If Dany would just chill for a moment and understand where they're coming from - like a good ruler would - she might realize she can win them over by saving them first and worry about titles later.

You're assuming the boss is in the wrong.  Quite often, that isn't the case.  And even the best bosses often have to contend with unruly little pisspots from time to time.

I agree Dany should have spoken up more with the focus on the WW threat.  Sansa does need to be put back in her box, or at least someone needs to make her realise she isn't that smart and is completely missing the bigger picture.  But then again her growing parallels to Cersei include that kind of tunnel visioned "I'm always right" ignorance so maybe it is by design.

[Rose of Red Lake]

8 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

is completely missing the bigger picture

Everyone is held hostage by Dany's ego, which is what the "bigger picture" depends on apparently. "Disrespect" could mean anything from interrupting to not giggling at her lame attempts at flattery. Whatever Dany decides is disrespect is on her whim. 

Sansa is shown to be smart because she follows the Roman maxim, whoever controls the grain wins the game. She's also shown to be smart because she did not trust Cersei (Dany did).

Dany replies that dragons eat whatever they like - that's actually terrifying to hear in public, in a Northern court, and after her little stunt where she made the COMMON FOLK afraid of them. She's going to have another BBQ'ed kid on her hands (and especially if the dragons dont get their 20 lbs of goats per day or whatever it was)

On top of all of this, there are hints that dragons wont even be that effective. They dont like the cold. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

27 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

You're assuming the boss is in the wrong.  Quite often, that isn't the case.  And even the best bosses often have to contend with unruly little pisspots from time to time.

 

you're a charming person

[Ser Gareth]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Everyone is held hostage by Dany's ego, which is what the "bigger picture" depends on apparently. "Disrespect" could mean anything from interrupting to not giggling at her lame attempts at flattery. Whatever Dany decides is disrespect is on her whim. 

Sansa is shown to be smart because she follows the Roman maxim, whoever controls the grain wins the game. She's also shown to be smart because she did not trust Cersei (Dany did).

Dany replies that dragons eat whatever they like - that's actually terrifying to hear in public, in a Northern court, and after her little stunt where she made the COMMON FOLK afraid of them. She's going to have another BBQ'ed kid on her hands (and especially if the dragons dont get their 20 lbs of goats per day or whatever it was)

On top of all of this, there are hints that dragons wont even be that effective. They dont like the cold. 

 

There are very few people who are seeing the bigger picture.  Dany keeping her mouth shut may be a sign that she does, but then again maybe not.

Right now it seems that Jon & Bran get it.  I'd imagine Davos and Sam do too, along with those that went on the Wight hunt.  And weirdly it seems like Jaime gets it also, hence his lone ride North.

Everyone else is still fucking about with the Game of Thrones, who has a right to what, who leads what etc.  It's all irrelevant in the face of the impending threat.

[Ser Gareth]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

you're a charming person

So you think everyone is always nice, except a boss?

There are shit people everywhere.  Landlords, tenants, bosses, employees etc.

[The Knight of Flours]

4 hours ago, Error-504 said:

They were at the wall, not at the umbers, however it was the Umber kid on the wall. 

They were at the Last Hearth.  When the Wall-refugees entered a hall, the sigil of the Umbers (in the show it's just crossed chains) were hanging on the walls.

[Rose of Red Lake]

15 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

So you think everyone is always nice, except a boss?

There are shit people everywhere.  Landlords, tenants, bosses, employees etc.

And sometimes everything looks like a nail! 

"if you want their loyalty you have to earn it." She's done this before in Essos why is she suddenly acting all imperialist now with these people who are starving and poor?

[Ser Gareth]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And sometimes everything looks like a nail! 

"if you want their loyalty you have to earn it." She's done this before in Essos why is she suddenly acting all imperialist now with these people who are starving and poor?

Like abandoning her quest for the Throne to stand along side the North fighting the Others?

[Camara]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

Like abandoning her quest for the Throne to stand along side the North fighting the Others?

She has no choice, if the North is slaughtered and overrun she won't have any Throne.

[D-Shiznit]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

Like abandoning her quest for the Throne to stand along side the North fighting the Others?

Exactly, at least Jon realizes this. If you want to see someone only working in their own interests look at Cersei. Dany literally only came to save these ungrateful mofos.

[El Guapo]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Everyone is held hostage by Dany's ego, which is what the "bigger picture" depends on apparently. "Disrespect" could mean anything from interrupting to not giggling at her lame attempts at flattery. Whatever Dany decides is disrespect is on her whim. 

Sansa is shown to be smart because she follows the Roman maxim, whoever controls the grain wins the game. She's also shown to be smart because she did not trust Cersei (Dany did).

Dany replies that dragons eat whatever they like - that's actually terrifying to hear in public, in a Northern court, and after her little stunt where she made the COMMON FOLK afraid of them. She's going to have another BBQ'ed kid on her hands (and especially if the dragons dont get their 20 lbs of goats per day or whatever it was)

On top of all of this, there are hints that dragons wont even be that effective. They dont like the cold. 

 

Dany's dragons literally killed hundreds of wights when she rescued Jon and Co. last season. Not sure how that is not effective.

[Camara]

7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Dany's dragons literally killed hundreds of wights when she rescued Jon and Co. last season. Not sure how that is not effective.

And with the dragon intervention the NK got a weapon of mass destruction that allowed him to easily break the wall.

So they both need the dragons to stop the AotD but they can't afford to lose one more as the NK will with have 2 vs 1.

With what we've been shown the NK was dangerous to dragons on the ground, now imagine on top of a dragon.

[Mladen]

19 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Dany's dragons literally killed hundreds of wights when she rescued Jon and Co. last season. Not sure how that is not effective.

Dragons are effective, but dragons are not invulnerable. We have seen that they can be killed and transformed. 

I am a bit puzzled by people believing that Dany had a choice here. Had she not come to the North and NK would overrun it, the entire population of the North would join his Army and that is immediate endgame for the living. 

So, while Dany is a good and honorable person to come, she also didn't have much choice. I wish she is being more proactive in making the Northern lords that she is not the enemy but a valuable ally. So far, she has done nothing.

[D-Shiznit]

14 minutes ago, Risto said:

Dragons are effective, but dragons are not invulnerable. We have seen that they can be killed and transformed. 

I am a bit puzzled by people believing that Dany had a choice here. Had she not come to the North and NK would overrun it, the entire population of the North would join his Army and that is immediate endgame for the living. 

So, while Dany is a good and honorable person to come, she also didn't have much choice. I wish she is being more proactive in making the Northern lords that she is not the enemy but a valuable ally. So far, she has done nothing.

Something Sansa and her Northern lords should realize by now.

[Cas Stark]

24 minutes ago, Risto said:

Dragons are effective, but dragons are not invulnerable. We have seen that they can be killed and transformed. 

I am a bit puzzled by people believing that Dany had a choice here. Had she not come to the North and NK would overrun it, the entire population of the North would join his Army and that is immediate endgame for the living. 

So, while Dany is a good and honorable person to come, she also didn't have much choice. I wish she is being more proactive in making the Northern lords that she is not the enemy but a valuable ally. So far, she has done nothing.

Wouldn't it really have made  more sense that the North be evacuated South?  Rather than trying to make a last stand at WF where the dragons are already declining due to the cold and no one in Dany's army has ever fought in winter conditions? I get why they are doing the battle at WF, but, in the scheme of things, it doesn't make much sense.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Wouldn't it really have made  more sense that the North be evacuated South? 

I think there are good reason to want to fight the Others in the North before they reach the more populated south. The problem is that, realistically, it would be very difficult to supply thousands of troops in the North.

The best strategy would likely be a defense in depth. Garrison a few strong points in the North to delay and hinder the others, while preparing further strong points in the South. Keep the Dothraki in the south, where they could be realistically supplied, and use them as a mobile reserve.