Jump to content
A Horse Named Stranger

Football: pool in to the Final Spur of the season

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, ljkeane said:

In fairness De Ligt looks a very good player, excellent for his age, but De Jong looks like the model midfielder for the modern high pressing game. Given the choice between the two I’d definitely take De Jong, especially from Barca’s point of view who need a midfielder more. So it’s not a big surprise they’re willing to pay him more.

They need De Ligt just as much as they needed De Jong. Pique ain't getting any younger and Umtiti has struggled with recurring knee problems. Valverde doesn't even play a high pressing game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

They need De Ligt just as much as they needed De Jong. Pique ain't getting any younger and Umtiti has struggled with recurring knee problems.

Do they need De Ligt though? Yeah, he’s very talented but they could go out and get a cheaper but still very good player to play alongside Lenglet and probably be fine.

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

 Valverde doesn't even play a high pressing game.

De Jong can press well but, no, Barcelona don’t currently play that way. The point is he’s very good at playing through the press and a significant proportion of the sides they’re likely to meet in the latter stages of the Champions League over the next few years do play that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Do they need De Ligt though? Yeah, he’s very talented but they could go out and get a cheaper but still very good player to play alongside Lenglet and probably be fine.

Sure, they could go out and get someone cheaper but they aren't doing that. There hasn't even been any rumours of them being interested in a CB other than De Ligt. De Ligt will go for a similar transfer fee to De Jong (whether it's to Barca or somewhere else) and such a hefty price tag means an increase in cost across the board (intermediary fees + player wages). It's just the way the market works.

 

Quote

De Jong can press well but, no, Barcelona don’t currently play that way. The point is he’s very good at playing through the press and a significant proportion of the sides they’re likely to meet in the latter stages of the Champions League over the next few years do play that way.

De Ligt is also very good at playing through a press and at 1v1 defending. His passing out from the back is one of his biggest strengths which, I suppose, is why Barca are banking on him being the perfect long term replacement for Pique.

 

 

But the whole point I was trying to make here is that it is unfair to call De Ligt's character into question. De Jong's representatives were doing the exact same thing yet no-one called De Jong a numpty who is more interested in money. So why the double standards for De Ligt?

Edited by Consigliere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

So why the double standards for De Ligt?

Because he might be signing for us as one of the alternatives and that can only be for money of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It absolutely would be. It certainly wouldn't be for winning things.

United need a lot more than one good centre back to do that. A decent manager for a start.

ETA. As would going to PSG, where he'd have a pointlessly easy league medal every year and no hope in the Champions League.

Edited by Soylent Brown

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the verdict on Solskjaer is still out tbf. Yes, I also think he won't be there to see the beginning of the 2020/21 as United manager. But who knows.

19 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Because he might be signing for us as one of the alternatives and that can only be for money of course.

If de Ligt actually picked United over Barca, then there's a case to be made over money being the decissive factor. United looks like a longterm project with a rebuilt, and some quite big unknowns. Will Solskjaer be there long term (doubtful imho), will there be a DoF and what is the long term idea/philosophy of United going to be, what will the team look like, and so on and so forth. So I don't think a really ambitious young player, who wants to compete for the CL and has ambitions to be a worldclass player finds United to be that appealing right now. Maybe de Ligt is a United fan, and it's a childhood dream of his to play there. Otherwise it's most likely really down to money. Having that said, I don't think it's terribly likely that he will go there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a n00b Chelsea fan, should I actually be happy that we won the UEFA Europa League? I get that we got a cup, but isn’t this one of the sadder cups?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So I don't think a really ambitious young player, who wants to compete for the CL and has ambitions to be a worldclass player finds United to be that appealing right now. Maybe de Ligt is a United fan, and it's a childhood dream of his to play there. Otherwise it's most likely really down to money. Having that said, I don't think it's terribly likely that he will go there.

Maybe he thinks he can be the face of the rebuild rather than being a cog at Barca. Maybe he's got the confidence in himself and is being convinced by the negotiating team that it's a workable project and he can get the glory of being the man who changed it round.

Put it this way VVD signed for Liverpool and now he's a hero in a way he would be less likely to be if he'd gone to Barca or Madrid or even City.

Edited by polishgenius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As a n00b Chelsea fan, should I actually be happy that we won the UEFA Europa League? I get that we got a cup, but isn’t this one of the sadder cups?

A trophy is a trophy. Enjoy it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Mexal said:

A trophy is a trophy. Enjoy it.

It’s a little hard to enjoy given that it was our best player’s farewell game.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It’s a little hard to enjoy given that it was our best player’s farewell game.  

He was leaving either way so you might as well enjoy winning the trophy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As a n00b Chelsea fan, should I actually be happy that we won the UEFA Europa League? I get that we got a cup, but isn’t this one of the sadder cups?

It's a major trophy and should be celebrated. Don't listen to those entitled cretins on social media who think that every trophy other than a league or CL title is a mickey mouse cup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It’s a little hard to enjoy given that it was our best player’s farewell game.  

It happens. You'll get a tidy sum for Hazard, you'll replace him with a few players and you'll continue to compete, both in CL and PL. And you get to celebrate a trophy on top of that, one that Arsenal and their fans would have relished, if only to make it into CL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Maybe he thinks he can be the face of the rebuild rather than being a cog at Barca. Maybe he's got the confidence in himself and is being convinced by the negotiating team that it's a workable project and he can get the glory of being the man who changed it round.

To be convinced by the negotiating team about the merits of the pojects, they would actually need to know what the poject will look. I don't think they can. So what is the footballing vision for the future United team? Direct attacking football, posession based football, high press, counter attacking football? Who will be in charge of all of that? Which players will be there (Pogba?), fullbacks need to be brought in, and strengthening in central midfield is required.

52 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Put it this way VVD signed for Liverpool and now he's a hero in a way he would be less likely to be if he'd gone to Barca or Madrid or even City. 

van Dijk and de Ligt are seperate footballers, at different points in their career. van Dijk has played professional football a bit longer, and I think it's a tough ask for a young player like de Ligt to do the face of the club thing. On top of that, with Liverpool you had a whole lot less question marks than you have with United now. van Dijk knew that Klopp would be in charge. He saw the development and recruitment of the team and got an idea that the general direction of the team was going upward, and given by the way Liverpool played at that time it looked like he signed up for an attacking team. There were a few holes in that team, mainly his position (centrebacks) and maybe goalkeeping needed strengthening at the time. So he had a more or less accurate idea what he was signing up to. The whole situation at Liverpool was way more sorted, then it is now at United. So it was an easier sales pitch for the negotiating team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So what is the footballing vision for the future United team? Direct attacking football, posession based football, high press, counter attacking football? Who will be in charge of all of that? Which players will be there (Pogba?), fullbacks need to be brought in, and strengthening in central midfield is required.

Yeah look I don't know what they're telling players they're meeting with but they're clearly telling them something. But even if they're telling them a load of horseshit and the players are being had, that's gullibility, not greed.

I'm not saying money doesn't come into it coz it obviously does. But this idea that money is the only possible reason that a young player could want to sign for United is just silly.

 

 

15 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

van Dijk has played professional football a bit longer, and I think it's a tough ask for a young player like de Ligt to do the face of the club thing.

That's what you think. It isn't necessarily what he thinks. We're speculating wildly on what his motives are, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough. But like I said, I think there are too many question marks at United right now to be considered a prefered destination for de Ligt. Well, we'll wait and see. But I stll don't think he will end up at Old Trafford.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I'm not saying money doesn't come into it coz it obviously does. But this idea that money is the only possible reason that a young player could want to sign for United is just silly.
 

For most players, sure, but the odd player that pretty much has every team in Europe after him, I think it would be.

And you mentioned VVD's situation, but whilst our defence was dodgy back then, most of the team looked good and it was clear the direction the team was moving in. United will get there eventually, sure, but it's by no means clear that they'll do it soon. They're as likely to end up rebuilding again after three more managers in three years as they are seriously challenging in three years, as it stands.

Away from defenders though, I see it's being talked about that Conte wants Lukaku at Inter, with Perisic+ maybe coming the other way. Interested?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

 I see it's being talked about that Conte wants Lukaku at Inter, with Perisic+ maybe coming the other way. Interested? 



No, coz despite his limitations it'd be much harder to get a striker as good as Lukaku than a wide player as good as Perisic, and in any case we need someone for the right a lot more than someone for the left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean when Raiola is your agent it’s not surprising you’re going after the biggest payday possible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I'm not saying money doesn't come into it coz it obviously does. But this idea that money is the only possible reason that a young player could want to sign for United is just silly.

Even if he goes to Barca (which seems the most likely) money will be a factor. Money is always a factor for the vast majority of players. He gave an interview recently where he was asked about his dream club (or something to that effect) and he replied that Ajax was the only club he's ever dreamed of playing for.

 

3 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

I mean when Raiola is your agent it’s not surprising you’re going after the biggest payday possible. 

Thing is, Raiola is actually no worse than most agents. Football agents are gouging clubs across the board. Raiola just happens to be an obnoxious loudmouth who talks a lot of shite and so gets more attention than most. I wish football implements a cap on commissions like they do in the NFL.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/47817930

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×