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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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There are 7 years of television building up to this moment, and even though the last 2-3 years have been very weak compared to the years preceding this, it's ridiculous to point at one single character and say that it's his fault that another basically nuked a city because he wouldn't/couldn't perform sexually for her. It ignores all the years of storytelling and character building that came before (no matter how inconsistent that character building may have been in the last season).

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3 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

There are 7 years of television building up to this moment, and even though the last 2-3 years have been very weak compared to the years preceding this, it's ridiculous to point at one single character and say that it's his fault that another basically nuked a city because he wouldn't/couldn't perform sexually for her. It ignores all the years of storytelling and character building that came before (no matter how inconsistent that character building may have been in the last season).

You’re right. He might have had sex with her and still did all that stuff after. There could have been a wedding while Varys roasted and she still woke up and did all the stuff. 

People just wanted to see Jon’s butt again.

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I don’t think what Dany did/became was mad. Angry, ruthless, cruel, but not mad. The game demanded it. She lost on too many fronts and she needed to demonstrate her power and instill an everlasting effect on her new subjects. Saving them from death itself did not resonate with them, so what makes you think saving the drudges of KL will.

 

If her goal is conquest and breaking the wheel, she did it. Well played. But now she has to replace it with a new and better order or die trying.

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3 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

You’re right. He might have had sex with her and still did all that stuff after. There could have been a wedding while Varys roasted and she still woke up and did all the stuff. 

People just wanted to see Jon’s butt again.

I agree, Daenerys is extremely unstable and any relationship/marriage with Jon would have miserable for him. She would have done as she pleased anyway.

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what I would have loved to have seen is a friggin conversation with the too of them - just talking about the implications of it all. but ffs jon has had his brain removed and he has just lost all his comms skills - for no apparent reason apart from the plot. this would have been a great scene and put things into context, but no one talks! I was hoping davos would find out and talk to jon - jon had talked to one about it apart from the reveal to sansa and co. davos has had nothing to say at all!

I am sure kit would have said ' look guys, jon is gonna want to explain things to dany' d&d - nope she is going off the deep end!

 

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13 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

what I would have loved to have seen is a friggin conversation with the too of them - just talking about the implications of it all. but ffs jon has had his brain removed and he has just lost all his comms skills - for no apparent reason apart from the plot. this would have been a great scene and put things into context, but no one talks! I was hoping davos would find out and talk to jon - jon had talked to one about it apart from the reveal to sansa and co. davos has had nothing to say at all!

I am sure kit would have said ' look guys, jon is gonna want to explain things to dany' d&d - nope she is going off the deep end!

 

What should have happen was he told Jon and Arya first. Then they told him not to tell Dany and has to keep doing her until they can get him out of the situation. 

 

All Jon wanted was some dragonglass and now he’s stuck with crazy...

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Posted (edited)

I think what most frustrates me is even with the material they've used there are so many more effective means of utilising it. For instance, Jon rejecting Dany's romantic overtures and that being her last forlorn hope to cling to before a descent into "fear it is then" would have been significantly more impactful if repositioned. It'd have carried more weight if they'd used more scenes to show her slowly withdrawing emotionally, not eating etc to open the episode (not just a throw away line) and then had her reach out to Jon for that reassurance as they stood atop some rubble/ruin staring over Kings Landing as the bells rang, perhaps throw in a few moments of grateful peasants thanking Jon for liberating them as he speaks with her (of course this would coincide with showing Cersei as more of a despotic ruler who harms the people in earlier episodes). His rejection, their adoration and coupled with her paranoia leading to her then snapping despite the battle having been won and mercy granted would have been a much better way to go, at least for me.

For me, this season has all the big building blocks and none of the cement that helps keep the wall you're building structurally sound. Just little additions, extra character driven scenes. Dany going mad has been given context and groundwork earlier, but the execution of the "snap" has been so rushed that what should be a massive moment is... oh ok, that's where we are going then?

Edited by Vernon Roche

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2 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

Not Just John. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa...they all played their role in creating an unstable world around her, a world she couldn't trust, making arrangements even at the last hour convenient to them, being wrong from their beginning, serving only their own agenda. Hope she takes them all down with her.  

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2 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

You mean after Rhaegal died and she lock herself up in Dragonstone for days mulling about vengeance, her road to the throne (with fear rather then love)? I think when they had the talk in Dragonstone she had chosen her path already. And I don't blame Jon that he couldn't/didn't want to fuck her there after the revelation of his perentage and his own need to digest that. He said that he would withdraw his claim to the throne, he came with the Northern army to siege Kingslanding. Telling Sansa and Arya about his perentage wasn't betrayal, they had a right to know that.

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17 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Not Just John. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa...they all played their role in creating an unstable world around her, a world she couldn't trust, making arrangements even at the last hour convenient to them, being wrong from their beginning, serving only their own agenda. Hope she takes them all down with her.  

There was no conspiracy amongst all of those people against Daenerys. She had no right to demand that Jon keep his true ancestry secret from the women who thought he was their brother. That was asking him to betray them.

If she takes them all down with her, Westeros will be thrown into complete, bloody chaos. Is that really the optimal ending for this story? Khaleesi or death?

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Just now, weirwoodface said:

There was no conspiracy amongst all of those people against Daenerys. She had no right to demand that Jon keep his true ancestry secret from the women who thought he was their brother. That was asking him to betray them.

If she takes them all down with her, Westeros will be thrown into complete, bloody chaos. Is that really the optimal ending for this story? Khaleesi or death?

This scene, that you are referring to, justifies Dany's estimation about Sansa, presenting John as a fool later on, for not listening her warnings and actually shows how oblivious he is of his own relatives. 

They are already in a bloody chaos they created themselves, with all their stupid advices, wrong assumptions, hidden agendas. 

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All Jon's fault? No. That's absurd. She still did the action, people are responsible for their actions.

Now you want to make the case that people with mental issues need help of the community, fine, but she was mentally fine up to that point.

 

 

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1 hour ago, David Selig said:

Jon is obviously bad in bed, if he could satisfy Dany properly all of this would have been avoided.

Apparently, show Jon is so dumb he's forgotten how to do the Lord's Kiss.

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5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

This scene, that you are referring to, justifies Dany's estimation about Sansa, 

The opposite could be said as well. And I'm not a "stan" of anyone here, I'm trying to be objective. Both women warned Jon of the other. Which one was correct?

 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

The opposite could be said as well. And I'm not a "stan" of anyone here, I'm trying to be objective. Both women warned Jon of the other. Which one was correct?

 

This is not about who is correct but what's the consequences/impact on the characters. Dany didn't try to get rid of Sansa. Sansa tried to destroy Dany and her effort led to Varys execution and betrayal.

Dany is surrounded by traitors and no one can be trusted, neither from the North or the South. 

 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, azor_ahaiii said:

And there's a ton of proof (listed out in detail in the post above yours) showing how she lost that restraint 

I understand not liking the episode for whatever reason but people claiming this "came out of nowhere" are full of shit

It came out of nowhere. Not one hint at any point in the story that Dany would kill people for no reason. Not one.

If it were necessary to her victory, it would've been much more believable. We DO know how single-minded she is about winning. But for no reason? Uh-uh. I call bullshit on that.

Edited by Hodor's Dragon

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2 hours ago, Pwyll41 said:

By the way....the dragon's are only her children IN HER MIND.  The equivalent of a crazy cat lady.

Haha...never thought of it like that, but now that you mention it...

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17 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

This is not about who is correct but what's the consequences/impact on the characters. Dany didn't try to get rid of Sansa. Sansa tried to destroy Dany and her effort led to Varys execution and betrayal.

You are correct that it is about the consequences and the impact, but Sansa telling Tyrion isn't the same as Sansa actively working to "destroy" Dany. People are going to do what people are going to do and if Daenerys cannot handle the truth getting around--which it was, eventually, like it or not--then Daenerys is likely not suited to rule Westeros. That is the consequence.

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