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Gerold the Great

Strongest Lannister Vassal

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I imagine at one point it was the Reyne's but after that I'd assume Tywin took pains to make sure there was no one standout second strongest house. I could see him dividing Reyne and Tarbeck lands not to some of the weaker houses so as balance the vassals a bit more. I couldn't pick one out (assuming we aren't counting the Lannisport Lannister's) so I'll just propose who I see as the most likely candidates and leave it at that; Lefford, Brax, Marbrand and Crakehall. 

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My guess is either House Swift (given their close marriage ties to the Lannister branch), House Crakehall (they seem to be at the heart of Westerlands warfare) or House Marbrand.

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4 hours ago, James Steller said:

My guess is either House Swift (given their close marriage ties to the Lannister branch), House Crakehall (they seem to be at the heart of Westerlands warfare) or House Marbrand.

Seeing as House Swyft are landed knights at the time of the main series I'd doubt this. Crakehall and Marbrand are fair guesses

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The strongest? Well I would have to say house clegane. I mean is there anyone "stronger" then the mountain.

 

However since you mean in terms of men and influence I would say crakehall or somone like that. House lannister is unique in the seven kingdoms because they not only have their home fort which is castrly rock but they own lannisport as well if I understand it right.  No other house in the seven kingdoms has this from what I know. But I imagine that with tywin dead and house lannister falling apart because of cersei's idiotic actions and now sir. kevans death the houses or the westerlands are gonna spread their influence to some degree.

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Quote

Sansa tried to look forlorn and abandoned as other heroes of the Battle of the Blackwater were summoned forth to receive their rewards.

Paxter Redwyne, Lord of the Arbor, marched down the length of the hall flanked by his twin sons Horror and Slobber, the former limping from a wound taken in the battle. After them followed Lord Mathis Rowan in a snowy doublet with a great tree worked upon the breast in gold thread; Lord Randyll Tarly, lean and balding, a greatsword across his back in a jeweled scabbard; Ser Kevan Lannister, a thickset balding man with a close-trimmed beard; Ser Addam Marbrand, coppery hair streaming to his shoulders; the great western lords Lydden, Crakehall, and Brax.

I assumed Marbrand was a strong house, but I guess theyre just in the story because of Addam

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

I assumed Marbrand was a strong house, but I guess theyre just in the story because of Addam

I mean Marbrand is mentioned in the same passage. I assume he's mentioned by name because he's been a little more prominent than Crakehall, Lefford and Brax up to that point. Considering the other characters named in the passage; Kevan, Randyll, Redwyne and Rowan; it'd be a little odd if Marbrand was including in this company if his house was of much lower status instead of being mentioned separately.

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I'd also say that its likely Marbrand or Crakehall who took the postion of cheif bannerman after the Reynes got flooded.

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I'd say that the Crakehalls are probably the most influential if not also the most powerful.  Tywin sent Jaime to squire for Sumner Crakehall.  I strongly doubt that Tywin would have sent his "golden child " to squire for a weak and ineffective lord.

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12 minutes ago, PrinceHenryris said:

I'd say that the Crakehalls are probably the most influential if not also the most powerful.  Tywin sent Jaime to squire for Sumner Crakehall.  I strongly doubt that Tywin would have sent his "golden child " to squire for a weak and ineffective lord.

Yeah, but while potentially being pedantic, there's a vast range of positions between "weak bannerman" and "principle bannerman" of the West.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I mean Marbrand is mentioned in the same passage. I assume he's mentioned by name because he's been a little more prominent than Crakehall, Lefford and Brax up to that point. Considering the other characters named in the passage; Kevan, Randyll, Redwyne and Rowan; it'd be a little odd if Marbrand was including in this company if his house was of much lower status instead of being mentioned separately.

Yea, thats true. Though it doesn't make much sense that hed be under keaven and over the "great lords" (though certainly not in the following bunch, smallfolk and Lothor)

So, Ad(d)am, what's the deal? Marbrand is a child friend of Jaime, I guess he was like a page in CR or something. Jaime becomes a squire at like 11 or 12 so Tyrion would be even smaller, but Tyrion and Marbrand exchanged a pleasent back and forth which makes me think theyre well acquainted.

Did Addam ever leave CR? Or has he always been following Tywin? And what about Marbrands father? If he was a "great lord" like the other 3 id think his name would be in the story

Ps.

I found this about Brax

Quote

Some son of Lord Brax. Brax had come to Riverrun once when she was a girl, to propose wedding one of his sons to her or Lysa. She wondered whether it was this same son out there now, leading the attack.

Makes me think of Frey (a riverland house) trying to join houses with Lannister (the western overlord) 

Its almost the same situation here, for all we know its the second son who was looking for Lysas hand

Edited by Hugorfonics

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7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, thats true. Though it doesn't make much sense that hed be under keaven and over the "great lords" (though certainly not in the following bunch, smallfolk and Lothor)

So, Ad(d)am, what's the deal? Marbrand is a child friend of Jaime, I guess he was like a page in CR or something. Jaime becomes a squire at like 11 or 12 so Tyrion would be even smaller, but Tyrion and Marbrand exchanged a pleasent back and forth which makes me think theyre well acquainted.

Did Addam ever leave CR? Or has he always been following Tywin? And what about Marbrands father? If he was a "great lord" like the other 3 id think his name would be in the story

Ps.

I found this about Brax

Makes me think of Frey (a riverland house) trying to join houses with Lannister (the western overlord) 

Its almost the same situation here, for all we know its the second son who was looking for Lysas hand

I think Lord Marbrand is called Damon? He's either mentioned when we hear about Robb capturing Ashenmark or in the apendix. Starting to think that maybe Marbrand had been historically lesser than Brax, Crakehall and Lefford in terms of prestige, power and wealth but in recent times have become more influential putting them on about the same level? Tywin allowing Addam to ward at the Rock and form a friendship with Jaime says a lot and its backed up by how much faith Tywin has in him for just about any job (outriders, commanding an entire flank over these 'great lords' on the Green Fork and putting him in command of the City Watch). Plus you can't forget that Tywin's mother is a Marbrand and they got a second Lannister marriage when Darlessa married Tygett. Marbrand not being counted among 'the great Lords of the West' does seem to suggest that they are a lesser house than Brax and Crakehall but their proximity to their liege probably raises them above the standing that their lands/castle/manpower/wealth etc would suggest.

Addam is the heir to the house so I'd guess he hasn't been at CR his whole life

If a Brax is brazen enough to saunter up to Riverrun looking to wed a Tully makes me think they might be quite powerful.

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Ser Addam Marbrand, coppery hair streaming to his shoulders; the great western lords Lydden, Crakehall, and Brax.

Addam is a knight and might be called a lordling, but he is not yet a lord. If his father, Lord Damon, was in this scene, I expect he would be considered a peer of the other western lords. 

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I think it would depend on who the lord of a particular house is at the moment. Marbrand is certainly prominent at the moment in part because of their close familial relationship to the most recent crop of Lannisters as well as the fact that Addam who is the heir to Ashemark is both a childhood friend of Jaime as well as seeming to be well-respecting for his abilities as a leader.

Houses like Crakehall, Lefford and Lydden will always be prominent because their seats lie along one of the three King's roads that end at Casterly Rock. We get more characters from the Crakehall family, but I don't know that it necessarily makes them more powerful.

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21 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I think Lord Marbrand is called Damon?

Really? Id think i would remember that. Regardless, cool name. Sounds Blackfyrish. That's interesting. So if Addams 30ish and his dad was like 20 when he had Addam, thatd put Damons birth around 250? Which is around some Blackfyre rebellion? Maybe im reading too much into it, Damons not Daemon after all (but just for shits and giggles ima leave this quote, because, I like it lol) 

Quote

"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."

"Your uncle may have been named for me.

#AddamsecretTarg? :P

21 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I think Lord Marbrand is called Damon? He's either mentioned when we hear about Robb capturing Ashenmark or in the apendix. Starting to think that maybe Marbrand had been historically lesser than Brax, Crakehall and Lefford in terms of prestige, power and wealth but in recent times have become more influential putting them on about the same level? Tywin allowing Addam to ward at the Rock and form a friendship with Jaime says a lot and its backed up by how much faith Tywin has in him for just about any job (outriders, commanding an entire flank over these 'great lords' on the Green Fork and putting him in command of the City Watch). Plus you can't forget that Tywin's mother is a Marbrand and they got a second Lannister marriage when Darlessa married Tygett. Marbrand not being counted among 'the great Lords of the West' does seem to suggest that they are a lesser house than Brax and Crakehall but their proximity to their liege probably raises them above the standing that their lands/castle/manpower/wealth etc would suggest.

Addam is the heir to the house so I'd guess he hasn't been at CR his whole life

If a Brax is brazen enough to saunter up to Riverrun looking to wed a Tully makes me think they might be quite powerful.

I did forget that. Being so closely related to Lannister would make me think that Marbrand is not an elite house. 

Its a golden rule; Dont allow your strongest bannermen into your family. Tully followed the rule with Frey as Martell follows it with Yrnowood. Its like Aerys' response to Cersei wedding Rhaegar, I think the exact quote was "lol wut?"

But for sure Addam seems competent and a close friend to Lannister, but so is Clegane. I think the 3 houses mentioned above are the greatest in the west in terms of men able to field

21 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

If a Brax is brazen enough to saunter up to Riverrun looking to wed a Tully makes me think they might be quite powerful.

That was my line of thinking too

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:
23 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I think Lord Marbrand is called Damon?

Really? Id think i would remember that. Regardless, cool name. Sounds Blackfyrish. That's interesting. So if Addams 30ish and his dad was like 20 when he had Addam, thatd put Damons birth around 250? Which is around some Blackfyre rebellion? Maybe im reading too much into it, Damons not Daemon after all (but just for shits and giggles ima leave this quote, because, I like it lol) 

Quote

There was also a Damon Lannister - great-grandfather to Tywin - who was around the same time as Daemon Blackfyre. Damon Marbrand's more likely to be named after him.

 

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

Its a golden rule; Dont allow your strongest bannermen into your family.

That is not a Golden rule, its an idiotic one. Mace married a Hightower, its done him no harm, its strengthened his House. His mother was a Redwyne, the second strongest Vassal, and also strengthened his House. Balon Greyjoy married into his most powerful vassals, the Harlaws, it did him no harm.

This is a golden rule that exists in your head, not in the middle ages.

Quote

 

Tully followed the rule with Frey

Hoster simply did not like Walder, but we know he was willing to marry his brother to a Frey but the Blackfish.  This rule you made up does not exist.

Quote

 

as Martell follows it with Yrnowood.

We have zero idea if the Martells follow it with the Yronwoods.  Quentyn is either a paedophile or he suspected him marrying a Yronwood was acceptable at some point.

I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her

Quote

But for sure Addam seems competent and a close friend to Lannister, but so is Clegane.

Addam was raised at Casterly Rock, the Cleganes are not on the same level.

 

10 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Addam is a knight and might be called a lordling, but he is not yet a lord. If his father, Lord Damon, was in this scene, I expect he would be considered a peer of the other western lords. 

I'd say the Brax are slightly above the Marbrands given Tyrion's introduction, and need to impress, the Dornish party

"Let me present Ser Flement Brax, heir to Hornvale. Lord Gyles of Rosby. Ser Addam Marbrand, Lord Commander of the City Watch. Jalabhar Xho, Prince of the Red Flower Vale. Ser Harys Swyft, my uncle Kevan's good father by marriage. Ser Merlon Crakehall. Ser Philip Foote and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, two heroes of our recent battle against the rebel Stannis Baratheon. And mine own squire, young Podrick of House Payne." The names had a nice ringing sound as Tyrion reeled them off, but the bearers were nowise near as distinguished nor formidable a company as those who accompanied Prince Oberyn, as both of them knew full well."

Given Addam's status as Lord Commander, he'd be expected to be listed first if Marbrand and Brax were equal status, both being heirs of their respective Houses (Addam being the guaranteed heir while Flement merely a younger brother to boot, recently made heir).

 

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17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not a Golden rule, its an idiotic one. Mace married a Hightower, its done him no harm, its strengthened his House. His mother was a Redwyne, the second strongest Vassal, and also strengthened his House. Balon Greyjoy married into his most powerful vassals, the Harlaws, it did him no harm.

Its working out well for Tyrell, everything seems to. I doubt itll last.

For Greyjoy, future looks bleak. A great antagonist to king Eurons throne is his neice with her uncles frienss and bannermen. 

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is a golden rule that exists in your head, not in the middle ages.

Isnt that the plot of war of the roses? Greedy inlaws thinking they can be king?

Or Ancient Rome, the great Augustus of house Julia married his strongest bannermen and there was never a Julia on the throne again, just Claudians.

But in terms of asoiaf, think Stark. If they were to have joined houses with the powerful like Manderly or Bolton, what would Stark do when they fought over Hornwood? It creates problems.

Certainly created problems for Roberts legacy

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Quentyn is either a paedophile or he suspected him marrying a Yronwood was acceptable at some point.

I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her

Lol, really? How old were the girls? I assumed they were all teenagers

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Addam was raised at Casterly Rock, the Cleganes are not on the same level.

Sandor was KG and Gregor was Tywins favorite toy, Clegane had lots of prestige in the west

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd say the Brax are slightly above the Marbrands given Tyrion's introduction, and need to impress, the Dornish party

"Let me present Ser Flement Brax, heir to Hornvale. Lord Gyles of Rosby. Ser Addam Marbrand, Lord Commander of the City Watch. Jalabhar Xho, Prince of the Red Flower Vale. Ser Harys Swyft, my uncle Kevan's good father by marriage. Ser Merlon Crakehall. Ser Philip Foote and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, two heroes of our recent battle against the rebel Stannis Baratheon. And mine own squire, young Podrick of House Payne." The names had a nice ringing sound as Tyrion reeled them off, but the bearers were nowise near as distinguished nor formidable a company as those who accompanied Prince Oberyn, as both of them knew full well."

Given Addam's status as Lord Commander, he'd be expected to be listed first if Marbrand and Brax were equal status, both being heirs of their respective Houses (Addam being the guaranteed heir while Flement merely a younger brother to boot, recently made heir).

 

I agree that Brax is one of the big ones

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6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its working out well for Tyrell, everything seems to. I doubt itll last.

How will the marriage to the Hightowers and Redwynes not last?

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

For Greyjoy, future looks bleak.

Which has nothing to do with Balon marrying a Harlaw 20 -30 years ago. What point are you actually trying to make here?

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

A great antagonist to king Eurons throne is his neice with her uncles frienss and bannermen. 

And?

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Isnt that the plot of war of the roses? Greedy inlaws thinking they can be king?

Yes, it is. What does this have to do with you making up a 'golden rule' that does not exist.

Its not a golden rule, kings/Lords have frequently married members of the Houses of their strongest vassals. That's just a fact.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Or Ancient Rome, the great Augustus of house Julia married his strongest bannermen and there was never a Julia on the throne again, just Claudians.

Again, what exactly is your point. How does this connect to your original point that there is some golden rule about not marrying into the Houses of the most powerful vassals?

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But in terms of asoiaf, think Stark. If they were to have joined houses with the powerful like Manderly or Bolton, what would Stark do when they fought over Hornwood? It creates problems.

eh? You know for a fact that they've never married into House Manderly or Hornwood? Can you cite your reference here?

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Certainly created problems for Roberts legacy

No, it didn't. His wife cuckolding him and his brothers rebelling caused problems for his legacy, him marrying into a powerful House did not.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, really? How old were the girls? I assumed they were all teenagers

Again, what is your point here? Quentyn Martell did not think there was some golden rule stopping him from marrying a Yronwood.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sandor was KG

Not down to Tywin he was not.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

and Gregor was Tywins favorite toy,

Hardly, Where are you getting this shit?

He was a feared solider who Tywin used to do his bidding due to how effective he was.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Clegane had lots of prestige in the west

Did they? Care to cite the books to back this up?

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I agree that Brax is one of the big ones

You do, then it may interest you to know that Tywin's great grandmother was a Brax. House Lannister also don't seem to have cared for this 'golden rule' you made up.

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