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Heresy 222 vindication

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On 5/24/2019 at 8:12 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, thank you.  Please correct me if I am wrong, but it can be presumed that the last hero is the same person as Azor Ahai.

Not really.Very few tangential points from what we are told in the novels,aside from starting a Dawn age after a time of darkness.

No 12 companions for AA.No wife sacrifice for the last hero that we know of.

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On 5/24/2019 at 9:28 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

It is interesting that you bring up Pyat Pree and Qarth.  I have shared this idea elsewhere, only to have it shot down fairly quickly, but perhaps the heretics will listen with open ears!

After Daenerys leaves the House of the Undying, it is reported that the glass candles are burning for the first time in hundreds of years.  It is specifically noted that the glass candle in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker is burning.  During all discussions of glass candles, it appears that glass candles are an uncommon, if not rare, artifact.  Other people that we know who collect rare artifacts of Valyrian lineage include Euron Greyjoy.  Interestingly, who currently has Pyat Pree? Euron.  Also interesting, is that Urrathon is the name of an old king of the Iron Islands, who is known to history as Urrathon Badbrother.  Thus, I think that Urrathon is an alias of Euron Greyjoy and I think he took up residence in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.  I also think it is interesting that Nightwalker sounds an awful lot like something associated with the Others.

 

Don't know why you were shot down.This makes textual and narrative sense.

Well done.

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Posted (edited)

For quite a few reasons.You've explained the name derivation very well,so no need to expand on that.

The theory fits with what we know about Euron,in the novels and the sample chapters from TWOW.He hasn't got a scrap of magical ability in his body,but he recognizes the power of sorcery and thinks he knows the ingredients to make it happen.

But I reckon he might go down this way...

Spoiler

..basically the same as Princess Aerya.Nasty for her, it's suggested that Balerion flew her there.Fitting for Euron,who chose to walk therein.

 

Edited by redriver

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7 hours ago, redriver said:

Don't know why you were shot down.This makes textual and narrative sense.

Well done.

Thank you!!!

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@St Daga thank you! I read an article that talk about TWOW being published three months after GRRM done writing it and I don't want to hype myself for nothing but combined by GRRMs post about TWOW being published until July 2020 New Zealand Worldcon I am on board with the hype train. 

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5 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga thank you! I read an article that talk about TWOW being published three months after GRRM done writing it and I don't want to hype myself for nothing but combined by GRRMs post about TWOW being published until July 2020 New Zealand Worldcon I am on board with the hype train. 

I'm not. I'm still waiting for the show ending that is not LOST and for Aragorn's tax policy. As well as for the question what to do with all those sweet little Orc babies, because according to the tone of GRRM that would not be a nice thing. All that while he wrotes Ramsgate and bastard abandonment in his books. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2019 at 4:28 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

It is interesting that you bring up Pyat Pree and Qarth.  I have shared this idea elsewhere, only to have it shot down fairly quickly, but perhaps the heretics will listen with open ears!

After Daenerys leaves the House of the Undying, it is reported that the glass candles are burning for the first time in hundreds of years.  It is specifically noted that the glass candle in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker is burning.  During all discussions of glass candles, it appears that glass candles are an uncommon, if not rare, artifact.  Other people that we know who collect rare artifacts of Valyrian lineage include Euron Greyjoy.  Interestingly, who currently has Pyat Pree? Euron.  Also interesting, is that Urrathon is the name of an old king of the Iron Islands, who is known to history as Urrathon Badbrother.  Thus, I think that Urrathon is an alias of Euron Greyjoy and I think he took up residence in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.  I also think it is interesting that Nightwalker sounds an awful lot like something associated with the Others.

 

Yes, on the same page completely.  I'd go so far to say that Euron also went into the HoU and left a part of himself behind:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."

"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

"We knew you were to come to us," the wizard king said. "A thousand years ago we knew, and have been waiting all this time. We sent the comet to show you the way."

"We have knowledge to share with you," said a warrior in shining emerald armor, "and magic weapons to arm you with. You have passed every trial. Now come and sit with us, and all your questions shall be answered."

 

There are other who I think left a part of themselves in the HoU:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

When Victorian invaded and conquered the Shield islands per Euron’s orders, it was a mirrored parallel of Bittersteel’s landing on Massey’s Hook during the fourth Blackfyre Rebellion on behalf of Daemon Blackfyre. 

Aegor (Bittersteel) Rivers and the Lord Reaper of Pyke Torwyn Greyjoy swore a blood oath, but Torwyn ended up betraying Aegor to his enemies during one of the Blackfyre Rebellions. Traditionally a blood oath involves the participants to shed their own blood and offer it to each other and swear to uphold some task, no matter what. Oft times the people involved would cut their hands and then shake in agreement. Victarion’s hand injury by Ser Talbert suggests that he is mirroring Bittersteel, while Ser Talbert is Torwyn Greyjoy.

Bittersteel and Bloodraven fought over Shiera, and Victorian killed his own wife, because Euron got her pregnant.

Again, I think of the Targaryen's and Blackfyre's as the same family, just a different name. To me it's like saying Jon isn't a Stark. He's a Stark, just not in name. Bittersteel and Bloodraven are both Targaryen bastards, but that doesn't make them Blackfyre's, and even though Bittersteel took the side of Daemon Blackfyre and his descendants, that doesn't actually make him a Blackfyre. Only a Blackfyre supporter. And they are all still dragons. I do like the details you found with the barrier islands, and I think it works nicely if you are compare/contrasting Kraken and Dragon, Greyjoy and Targaryen/Blackfyre/Brightflame (another distinction but still dragons with the blood of Old Valyria). Anyway, I think your parallel/inversion works if you consider the Targaryen's and Blackfyre's the same group, at least when contrasted against the Greyjoy's, or perhaps other houses. Against themselves, it might be different, just as their sigil is a reversal of each other, but against other houses, a dragon is still a dragon.

As to Victarion's hand injury, I think it's very important (how and who he got it from) and what it leads to, but I am not sure about a blood oath connection. Do we have an example of what taking a "blood oath" entails in GRRM's world? I see some symbolism between the Dothraki blood rider's and the oath they swear to their Khal, but there doesn't seem to actually be a blood sharing ceremony.

Also, it would be interesting to know what happened to Torwyn Greyjoy, a man who betrayed a blood oath!

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3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@St Daga thank you! I read an article that talk about TWOW being published three months after GRRM done writing it and I don't want to hype myself for nothing but combined by GRRMs post about TWOW being published until July 2020 New Zealand Worldcon I am on board with the hype train. 

I would like to be hopeful that a book will come next summer, but I just finished a reread of Feast, and at the end, in his "Meanwhile, back at the wall..." summary, GRRM promised Dance the following year, and that was not the case. It was many years... So, his intentions are one thing, his follow through is something completely different. I guess we can lock his ass in a room if he doesn't deliver, however. He has given us permission!

I have been positive for years, and I really hoped we would get an announcement after the show concluded, but all we got was another promise. What does it really mean? I'm finding it's easier to not be hopeful and not be disappointed in a year, than to hope and have those hopes dashed yet again. I hope he proves me wrong...

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42 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have been positive for years, and I really hoped we would get an announcement after the show concluded, but all we got was another promise. What does it really mean?

Well, look at it this way.  Right after the show ended, May 20, he said:

Quote

THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself

No news there at all, obviously.  That's the exact same thing he's been saying for years.

But then, in his very next blog entry, he contradicted himself, and suddenly took a dump on the above longstanding policy with remarks strongly suggesting he will be finished with TWOW by Worldcon 2020. 

Well, why?  What changed in his mind, to reverse himself as completely as that? 

It might be that the light has finally begun to dawn on him that not only did the world loathe season eight, the world seriously believes season eight spoiled his ending on all the important points. 

If so, maybe he's realized that the only way to change minds on that subject is to get a new book out... in which it's blatantly apparent the show did not spoil the books on all the important points.  He could really blow minds in this department if he wanted to do it.

If that really is his new thinking, will get it done?  Maybe.  But past history isn't much of a guide.

We've just never been in this situation before, where (1) the world hated the show's ending and (2) GRRM (almost certainly) hates the idea his books were permanently spoiled by the show ending.  We'll find out.

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It also occurs to me that season eight did vindicate Heresy in a way.

For years, people have maintained that the show and books must be the same on all important points.

Some still believe that.  If so, they are forced to accept that Jon Snow will never be king of Westeros in the books.

Or else, if they still believe in King Jon, First of His Name, they can choose to believe that the show and books must differ in an enormous way.

But for the first time in the history of ASOIAF fandom, they cannot believe both.

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3 minutes ago, JNR said:

We've just never been in this situation before, where (1) the world hated the show's ending and (2) GRRM (almost certainly) hates the idea his books were permanently spoiled by the show ending.  We'll find out.

Well, I hope it's the incentive he needs, but I will remain cautious!

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Just now, JNR said:

It also occurs to me that season eight did vindicate Heresy in a way.

For years, people have maintained that the show and books must be the same on all important points.

Some still believe that.  If so, they are forced to accept that Jon Snow will never be king of Westeros in the books.

Or else, if they still believe in King Jon, First of His Name, they can choose to believe that the show and books must differ in an enormous way.

But for the first time in the history of ASOIAF fandom, they cannot believe both.

All these same people who said that RLJ "must be true" because they would not change something that important in the show from the books, are now facing the fact that the show gave them the reveal that they wanted but that reveal really served no purpose. Oh, people can argue that knowledge of Jon Snow's parentage was the impetus that drove Dany to her final act of "madness" but that really isn't the truth either. I mean, the seeds have been laid for Dany since the first book, just like they are there for Bran or Tyrion or Jon, perhaps, to become the ultimate but complicated villain. But I would go so far as to argue that RLJ did nothing in the show, because they could have driven Dany to "madness" without it, by only using the losses she suffered (friends, dragons, esteem) and the fact that the people of Westeros did not embrace her like she thought they should. 

Yes, there is certainly some vindication for the heretic's...

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1 minute ago, St Daga said:

Oh, people can argue that knowledge of Jon Snow's parentage was the impetus that drove Dany to her final act of "madness" but that really isn't the truth either.

Well, it is, though, IMO.  Every episode in season eight developed that idea. 

If Jon had not been Rhaegar's son, Dany would never have cared how beloved he was, or would have feared being replaced by him.  He would just have been a nice guy she was banging.

It was only when she learned he had a superior claim to the throne that her paranoia got control of her mind, and she saw her own team might try to ditch her and replace her with Jon.  That's why she begged him to keep his mouth shut and tell no one about his true parents.  But he didn't, and the people he told didn't either.  Soon her whole team knew.

When Tyrion came to her saying there was a traitor, she assumed it was Jon for this very reason. Already the Targ insanity was gaining control of her.

So when finally, after the whole season was built up this way, she morphed into her post-Trident Aerys and burned down King's Landing and fried thousands of innocents, I wasn't at all surprised.

6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I mean, the seeds have been laid for Dany since the first book, just like they are there for Bran or Tyrion or Jon, perhaps, to become the ultimate but complicated villain.

Maybe.  But I think Barristan will prove correct, and there is no taint of madness in her.   He spent quite some time looking for the signs, and God knows he was a qualified authority in knowing what to look for.

But if she does go mad, it's not going to be because Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  I'm as sure of this today as I was after season two, in saying Dany was going to die at the end of the show.

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Here's the very rare theory that maybe all Heretics can agree with:

Benioff and Weiss are secret Targs, and season eight is the proof that they succumbed to insanity.

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7 minutes ago, JNR said:

If Jon had not been Rhaegar's son, Dany would never have cared how beloved he was, or would have feared being replaced by him.  He would just have been a nice guy she was banging.

It was only when she learned he had a superior claim to the throne that her paranoia got control of her mind, and she saw her own team might try to ditch her and replace her with Jon.  That's why she begged him to keep his mouth shut and tell no one about his true parents.  But he didn't, and the people he told didn't either.  Soon her whole team knew.

When Tyrion came to her saying there was a traitor, she assumed it was Jon for this very reason. Already the Targ insanity was gaining control of her.

So when finally, after the whole season was built up this way, she morphed into her post-Trident Aerys and burned down King's Landing and fried thousands of innocents, I wasn't at all surprised.

This all could have happened without her having a clue about Jon's blood claim to the throne. A claim, by the way that doesn't matter, because the Targaryen's were defeated with the rebellion and lost their hold on the throne. Dany taking the throne in her head might have to do with her blood right, but she takes it with war and conquest, fire and blood, not her claim to the throne. So, in that way, Jon's claim doesn't matter either.

Dany is jealous because people love Jon, she feels threatened by how people react to him, but that has nothing to do with Jon's parentage, it has to do with the man that Jon is (no matter how poorly d&d wrote Jon in this last season), so even if he is not a Targaryen, people might still support him over her on the throne. Again, a throne that is taken by conquest, not by blood. I don't think the link to him being a Targaryen really makes a difference to the outcome. I guess one could argue that it drove a wedge between their "love" but that wedge could come from other things, as well.

In her eyes, Jon is a traitor because he didn't do what she ordered him to do, not necessarily because of the message he delivered to his sisters. BTW, I am still pissed that Sansa was not punished for her scheming! And if he wanted, he could still challenge Dany's claim to rule, based on conquest, regardless of his parentage.

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

Maybe.  But I think Barristan will prove correct, and there is no taint of madness in her.   He spent quite some time looking for the signs, and God knows he was a qualified authority in knowing what to look for.

But if she does go mad, it's not going to be because Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  I'm as sure of this today as I was after season two, in saying Dany was going to die at the end of the show.

Ah, Barristan. I don't put as much faith in his opinion as you do, I guess. Dany is 16 currently in the books, or perhaps only 15. Aerys didn't display signs of madness for years, long after he was married, king, and having children. For Barristan to make his judgment of Dany at her young age and for him only watching her for less than a year is premature, in my opinion. Barristan rescued Aerys from Duskendale long after some of his cruelty was starting to show, but still, the true madness seems to come after for Aerys. So, all Dany needs is a tipping point, and she has years to do it. Barristan should be well aware of that, but it doesn't seem to cross his mind.

But it's not just Dany that the seeds of darkness are sewn for. It's in Bran's story, it's in Jon's story, it's in Arya's story, it's in Tyrion's story, perhaps most of all. I think currently Penny is the only thing that is keeping Tyrion from a true decent into darkness. I would not be surprised if anyone of these character's became a villain in this story. Okay, I take that back just a bit. Arya might be the one that surprises me just a little, because she is open and kind at heart, although life experience and training have twisted her, but those are the complicated things that GRRM twists into his character. IF Dany falls to "madness" whatever the heck that means, then it will not be sudden, nor will it be a Sauron type of villainy, being bad just because... it will be a million shades of grey, it will be debatable for readers, it might even seem unfair, but that is the complicated things that GRRM wants to write about. The human heart in conflict with itself!

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1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Again, I think of the Targaryen's and Blackfyre's as the same family, just a different name. To me it's like saying Jon isn't a Stark. He's a Stark, just not in name. Bittersteel and Bloodraven are both Targaryen bastards, but that doesn't make them Blackfyre's, and even though Bittersteel took the side of Daemon Blackfyre and his descendants, that doesn't actually make him a Blackfyre. Only a Blackfyre supporter. And they are all still dragons. I do like the details you found with the barrier islands, and I think it works nicely if you are compare/contrasting Kraken and Dragon, Greyjoy and Targaryen/Blackfyre/Brightflame (another distinction but still dragons with the blood of Old Valyria). Anyway, I think your parallel/inversion works if you consider the Targaryen's and Blackfyre's the same group, at least when contrasted against the Greyjoy's, or perhaps other houses. Against themselves, it might be different, just as their sigil is a reversal of each other, but against other houses, a dragon is still a dragon.

As to Victarion's hand injury, I think it's very important (how and who he got it from) and what it leads to, but I am not sure about a blood oath connection. Do we have an example of what taking a "blood oath" entails in GRRM's world? I see some symbolism between the Dothraki blood rider's and the oath they swear to their Khal, but there doesn't seem to actually be a blood sharing ceremony.

Also, it would be interesting to know what happened to Torwyn Greyjoy, a man who betrayed a blood oath!

I actually do group the Targaryens and Blackfyres as one family, but the close parallels to the Blackfyre rebellions indicate a split within the family, which if you think about it is still true if Daenerys represents the trueborn side of the family and the Greyjoys as the Blackfyres. I have also found many parallels between Damphair and Maester Aemon who obviously is trueborn Targaryen, so there is a jumbled mixture in the Greyjoys with some mirroring Blackfyres and some as Targaryen. It's a symptom of the unraveling of the wards that are occurring.

Just as seeing the turtle was the blessing as being the opposite side of the coin from the curse, the blood oath is sort of the "blessed" side while Victarion's injury is the "cursed".

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1 minute ago, St Daga said:

Dany is jealous because people love Jon, she feels threatened by how people react to him, but that has nothing to do with Jon's parentage, it has to do with the man that Jon is

If that were true, she would not have cared Jon was Rhaegar's trueborn son... and she would not have cared who knew that... and she certainly would not have begged him to keep his goddamned mouth shut.

But she did.  She did all that.  She cared tremendously that he had the superior claim.

Now, where we agree is that that still really made no sense.  Because even if he did have the superior claim, how would Jon ever prove it?  This is a thing we book readers have known for years, and would still be an enormous hurdle in the books.

Let's imagine how that would go in a logical show:

Quote

JON: You can tell just looking at me.  I'm obviously a dead ringer for Rhaegar.

Yeah.... that's not going to work.  Or:

Quote

JON: You see, my brother had a magic vision of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna.   And before that he had a different magic vision of Lyanna being my mum.  And Sam found a book that said something.

Well, that would just come off as high comedy, in a logical show. 

But on the show, I'm afraid nobody had any brains in their heads and asked for proof of any sort.  They just bought it all.  Tyrion, Varys, Sansa, all of them... all... bought it with no objections.   There's no doubt about that.

(Very similarly, on the show, Tyrion rolled out the idea of King Bran because of his "story."  Because he was the "memory of Westeros."  IMO, all the nobles should have laughed in Tyrion's face, because how would any of them know about Bran's magic powers?  How for that matter would Tyrion know?  They've had no proof at all that Bran has any magic powers and should consider that ridiculous.  But they bought it, instantly, all the same.)

So you have to judge the show not based on how you think characters should logically have reacted, but how they did in fact react.   And Dany did in fact try as hard as she possibly could to shut down the story of Jon being Rhaegar's son.

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11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

But it's not just Dany that the seeds of darkness are sewn for. It's in Bran's story, it's in Jon's story, it's in Arya's story, it's in Tyrion's story, perhaps most of all.

Oh yeah, we don't disagree on this at all.  :cheers:

I'm just saying that on the very specific point of whether a Targ is likely to go insane, Barristan is as good an authority as it gets.  You can't be Aerys II's Kingsguard, for years, without learning a thing or two about cruel Targ madness.

And when he was evaluating Dany, he surely would have been looking for the same kind of stuff we see Viserys frequently doing in book one:

Quote

 

His fingers brushed lightly over her budding breasts and tightened on a nipple. "You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" His fingers twisted her, the pinch cruelly hard through the rough fabric of her tunic. "Do you?" he repeated.

"No," Dany said meekly.

 

Just nasty and cruel and pointless.  Dany is not that, IMO, though she is also capable of dealing harshly with people she believes are cruel, like the slave masters.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, St Daga said:

All these same people who said that RLJ "must be true" because they would not change something that important in the show from the books, are now facing the fact that the show gave them the reveal that they wanted but that reveal really served no purpose. Oh, people can argue that knowledge of Jon Snow's parentage was the impetus that drove Dany to her final act of "madness" but that really isn't the truth either. I mean, the seeds have been laid for Dany since the first book, just like they are there for Bran or Tyrion or Jon, perhaps, to become the ultimate but complicated villain. But I would go so far as to argue that RLJ did nothing in the show, because they could have driven Dany to "madness" without it, by only using the losses she suffered (friends, dragons, esteem) and the fact that the people of Westeros did not embrace her like she thought they should. 

Yes, there is certainly some vindication for the heretic's...

I agree [obviously] and its worth emphasising that GRRM didn't need to "change something so important" if that importance only existed in the imaginations of those fans who attached so much importance to the theory.

I think that we also need to strip this back to the bare essentials. A couple of years ago the Mummers told us that in a meeting in Santa Fe GRRM had revealed where certain character arcs were going to go. This included some important ones and I particularly remember Arya and I think Bran was mentioned as well, but certainly the reaction in these here parts was surprise that GRRM had revealed so little to them up until that point.

For their part they needed to know because it was obvious that they were going to wrap long before the books.

He has emphasised countless times this business of different roads to the same destination and obviously hasn't properly worked out yet exactly how he's going to get there himself.

As a result we can confidently expect only two things; first that certain named characters will make it through to the end and some even beyond it; secondly, given that the Mummers specifically spoke of character arcs rather than events, it would be unwise to speculate too far on those events presented by the Mummers. Nevertheless we can be pretty confident that the popular theories that Jon would be revealed as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, rightful heir to the Iron Throne and the embodiment of Ice and Fire will not come to pass. Notwithstanding JNR's argument, R+L=J, whether true or not, looks like its going to be a pretty damp squib rather than the decisive moment so stridently predicted in another place.

[OK I'm biased, but when you've been subjected to the vitriol I've had thrown over me in that place for daring to doubt that orthodoxy - accused by one long forgotten clown of "hating Rhaegar" forsooth - the vindication of heresy represented by that lack of the return of the king outcome is palpable]

Edited by Black Crow

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