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Corvinus

The Wheel of Time TV Show 3: Fan expectations are heavier than a mountain, success is lighter than a feather [BOOK SPOILERS]

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Would they be alone?  Would they retain their WoT abilities?  Any channeler of the One Power would go far on strength alone.  Of the Aes Sedai I would agree with Fionwe that Egwene has the best chances.  A strong channeler and naturally politically savvy even hampered by the Three Oaths.   If WoT abilities do not carry over I feel Egwene is at a distinct disadvantage in Westeros due to being a commoner.  Elayne would have a good shot in either situation.

Brute force would have Rand winning the throne.  He's as strong a channeler as it gets, and is a freakish strong ta'veren, but is not very politically astute so is unlikely to be a good ruler.   Egwene and Elayne have him beat once the conquest is over with.  Many others do as well.  Still, Rand is royalty and would have some sort of claim despite his success at pressing it.  No WoT abilities leave Rand out I think. 

It's hard to separate Tuon from the Seanchan so I don't know how she would do on her own.

Berelain would do well I think.  I think she has it in her to be vicious and conniving enough.  She's obviously a good ruler and leader. 

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1 hour ago, Inkdaub said:

Would they be alone?  Would they retain their WoT abilities?  Any channeler of the One Power would go far on strength alone.  Of the Aes Sedai I would agree with Fionwe that Egwene has the best chances.  A strong channeler and naturally politically savvy even hampered by the Three Oaths.   If WoT abilities do not carry over I feel Egwene is at a distinct disadvantage in Westeros due to being a commoner.  Elayne would have a good shot in either situation.

Brute force would have Rand winning the throne.  He's as strong a channeler as it gets, and is a freakish strong ta'veren, but is not very politically astute so is unlikely to be a good ruler.   Egwene and Elayne have him beat once the conquest is over with.  Many others do as well.  Still, Rand is royalty and would have some sort of claim despite his success at pressing it.  No WoT abilities leave Rand out I think. 

It's hard to separate Tuon from the Seanchan so I don't know how she would do on her own.

Berelain would do well I think.  I think she has it in her to be vicious and conniving enough.  She's obviously a good ruler and leader. 

Clearly you've not read GRRM's write up of Jaime vs. Rand from some years ago. Forget which site had made a tournament of fantasy characters, which caught the attention of both GRRM and Brandon Sanderson. Anyway, according to GRRM, since TWoIaF is a world where magic has been slowly dying, WoT channelers are only able to use the One Power briefly before losing access to it.

I disagree with your statement that Rand is not politically astute. Thanks to lessons he gets from Thom, Moiraine, and Elayne. over the course of his story, he becomes very astute, able to play nobles long versed in the Game of Houses against each other. He does lean towards becoming arrogant when he gains enough power, so that would be his weakness, but unlike someone like Ned Stark, he's not above doing some Machiavellian thing for the greater good.

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Plus Rand is ta’veren - had Littlefinger betrayed Rand like he did Ned, he’d probably trip and stab himself

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Arya is ta'veren.  How else to explain her entire arc but especially why Littlefinger just didn't get a good look at her face when she was serving him and Tywin at table?

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45 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Arya is ta'veren.  How else to explain her entire arc but especially why Littlefinger just didn't get a good look at her face when she was serving him and Tywin at table?

Well if we're talking about the show, then Daenerys broke the Wheel, so either 1) It's all good for the women of WoT, and all smalffolk of WoT to strive for power in Westeros or 2) the world of WoT was destroyed, therefore no character from WoT can migrate to Westeros.

Edit: I just realized that what we might hear in the WoT show ad nauseam is the good characters trying to protect the Wheel (of Time) from being broken. :laugh:

Edited by Corvinus

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2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Well if we're talking about the show, then Daenerys broke the Wheel, so either 1) It's all good for the women of WoT, and all smalffolk of WoT to strive for power in Westeros or 2) the world of WoT was destroyed, therefore no character from WoT can migrate to Westeros.

Edit: I just realized that what we might hear in the WoT show ad nauseam is the good characters trying to protect the Wheel (of Time) from being broken. :laugh:

Yup. Danaerys is clearly the Dark One. :D

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There is no greater player of Daes Dae'mar than one Thomdril Merrilin. He's not averse to regicide either ;) 

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6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Clearly you've not read GRRM's write up of Jaime vs. Rand from some years ago. Forget which site had made a tournament of fantasy characters, which caught the attention of both GRRM and Brandon Sanderson. Anyway, according to GRRM, since TWoIaF is a world where magic has been slowly dying, WoT channelers are only able to use the One Power briefly before losing access to it.

It was for Tor.com. Here is the write up. 

That was honestly kind of a blast, BTW, when it was happening. Though Jaime vs. Cthulhu took the cake, IMO.

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2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Well if we're talking about the show, then Daenerys broke the Wheel, so either 1) It's all good for the women of WoT, and all smalffolk of WoT to strive for power in Westeros or 2) the world of WoT was destroyed, therefore no character from WoT can migrate to Westeros.

We should have known that Dany is the villain. Per Moiraine and Aes Sedai, the desire of the Dark One is to break the wheel :D

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But seriously, any channeler would have an undue advantage in Westeros, and someone as strong as Moiraine and above would be a reasonable threat even to Dragons. Heck if they play it right, they can down Dragons with ease by just using Air.

Certainly, they'd be able to decimate any Westerosi army with abandon all on their own. Add Traveling to the mix and they're pretty much gods, as far as the layperson is concerned. 

You jump up to someone as strong as Egwene and above, and they can play with plate tectonics, or the weather, at a continental scale (actually, weaker Sea Folk Windfinders with greater skill can too, for the Weather). At this point, any kind of loss would have to be from personal stupidity. 

But I guess my question wasn't about using the Power. I meant in terms of political skills. And there's a bunch of WoT characters with a reasonable shot. 

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I will have to reconsider my assessment.  I had no idea Jaime defeated Cthulhu. 

Another thing to consider is that a can of Pringles once lasted me more than a single sitting.

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5 hours ago, Inkdaub said:

I will have to reconsider my assessment.  I had no idea Jaime defeated Cthulhu. 

Another thing to consider is that a can of Pringles once lasted me more than a single sitting.

Madness.

Clearly Cthulhu only wants us to think he lost.

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8 hours ago, Inkdaub said:

Another thing to consider is that a can of Pringles once lasted me more than a single sitting.

Were you ill, mad or working for Russians? :D

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On 9/6/2019 at 4:19 PM, fionwe1987 said:

But seriously, any channeler would have an undue advantage in Westeros, and someone as strong as Moiraine and above would be a reasonable threat even to Dragons. Heck if they play it right, they can down Dragons with ease by just using Air.

Certainly, they'd be able to decimate any Westerosi army with abandon all on their own. Add Traveling to the mix and they're pretty much gods, as far as the layperson is concerned. 

You jump up to someone as strong as Egwene and above, and they can play with plate tectonics, or the weather, at a continental scale (actually, weaker Sea Folk Windfinders with greater skill can too, for the Weather). At this point, any kind of loss would have to be from personal stupidity. 

But I guess my question wasn't about using the Power. I meant in terms of political skills. And there's a bunch of WoT characters with a reasonable shot. 

Just cuz you got the power doesn't mean all powerful. Elaine, egwene, and nynaeve all got jumped when they were accepted and could have easily been killed but got taken prisoner. Many other such circumstances like that have happened against those who dont have the power.

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2 hours ago, mactwist2 said:

Just cuz you got the power doesn't mean all powerful. Elaine, egwene, and nynaeve all got jumped when they were accepted and could have easily been killed but got taken prisoner. Many other such circumstances like that have happened against those who dont have the power.

Well sure. But if you're foolish enough to get jumped like that after you've gained some experience, you probably won't be winning anything.

But let's remember: anyone can get jumped. Not everyone has the Power to help them out of the situation.

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4 hours ago, mactwist2 said:

Just cuz you got the power doesn't mean all powerful. Elaine, egwene, and nynaeve all got jumped when they were accepted and could have easily been killed but got taken prisoner. Many other such circumstances like that have happened against those who dont have the power.

Amen... I have just recalled how Liandrin had played them in Book 3. It was amazingly stupid of them. 

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On 9/7/2019 at 10:24 AM, Durckad said:

Madness.

Clearly Cthulhu only wants us to think he lost.

No question there is more to the story than will ever be told.

On 9/7/2019 at 1:26 PM, Risto said:

Were you ill, mad or working for Russians? :D

All good...I got another can.

 

So I am finishing up my reread and have around a hundred pages to go.  I have enjoyed this reread and coming to the end is a little bittersweet as I don't see myself committing to another reread.  I hope the show is good.

 

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If we're mixing the two casts, it really depends on who's doing the writing IMO. If we have Westeros as another continent in Robert Jordan's setting, as written by him, then I think Dany saves the world from the Others and takes the Iron Throne. RJ was a pretty conservative author, who tended to play the good and evil, heroes and villains thing pretty straight. He also had a very low body count in his apocalypse story. The good guys got rewarded; the bad guys got their comeuppance. And Tuon's the only grey figure I can think of off the top of my head that prospered. I figure the likes of Ned, Robert, Catelyn, Robb and so forth survive all the way to the end if ASOIAF is a Jordan tale, probably with Robert abdicating in Dany's favour after she saves the day, and then heading off to the Free Cities to live happily ever after.

If the, ah, Westlands is another continent in George R. R. Martin’s setting, as written by him though, things get a bit different. GRRM has a certain theme of realistic consequences resulting from bad decisions, and goes out of his way to avoid deus ex machina solutions, albeit with a few instances where he fails his own standards in that regards, such as Summer just happening to be nearby on the night that the wildlings decide to test Jon’s loyalty.

Still. Despite such discrepancies, I don’t think many of the WOT cast would last long in ASOIAF. Moiraine, Lan and Nynaeve would likely have died at the Eye of the World, when they take on Aginor and Balthamel and lose. In the original scene, the Forsaken just beat them unconscious and leave them lying there without even any tasteful scars to show for their encounter. They even knock Lan aside with Air, despite it being an element we’re told is usually stronger in women than in men, whereas the much deadlier Fire is the opposite. I have to assume that if you were to encounter two of the evilest magicians in history in a GRRM tale, fight them, and lose ... you don’t get left alive. Few, if anyone, in Westeros has plot armour that thick.

And they definitely don’t have plot armour thick enough to get caught alone in a dark dungeon with someone like Padan Fain, armed with the Shadar Logoth dagger.

So Mat and Egwene don’t make it past the opening few chapters of book two. They die in the scene where Fain gets loose and takes the dagger from Mat’s belt. In the original, Fain just knocks them out, and Rand finds them later lying on the ground side by side but unharmed. Take a moment to imagine how that must have played out. Padan Fain, merged with Mordeth. Two evil sons of bitches. They get out of the cell, knock out one of the three ta’veren that Fain spends the whole series obsessively hating over, as well as the then girlfriend of another of those ta’veren, yet Fain, who will later attempt to wipe out the entire Two Rivers, and succeed in slaughtering Perrin’s whole extended family, Fain just crouches down, takes the dagger from the sheath at Mat’s belt and ... gets up and walks away. We’ve seen how easily that thing kills. All it takes is a scratch. He wouldn’t have even had to exert the force needed to stab the two unconscious teens in the heart, or take a step away from where he crouched to reach their flesh. Just two casual flicks of his wrist and both are gone forever. But he wanders off instead, to go rant for a dozen more books about how much he hates the ta’veren trio ... You need plot armour a foot thick, and made of feckin’ titanium, to survive that. GRRM would never have let them get out of that dungeon alive.

Rand I think might have made it as far as Falme, but is unlikely to have survived his duel with High Lord Turak. A lucky blow taking out a clearly superior fighter ... Maybe. Just maybe. But even if he survives Turak, he definitely wouldn’t survive the Stone of Tear. Run off alone to sneak into the greatest fortress in the land, where you’ll face off against a Forsaken who easily outmatches you? Nah. Stupid decisions like that get you killed in GRRMland.

Oddly enough, I think it’s Perrin who has the best chance of making it to the end of the tale. He makes the fewest bonehead decisions of the major WOT characters. He wouldn’t get anywhere near the Iron Throne, of course, but I could see him surviving the series and getting a happy ending, at least.

Edited by Shaun Snow
spelling mistakes

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2 hours ago, Shaun Snow said:

If we're mixing the two casts, it really depends on who's doing the writing IMO. If we have Westeros as another continent in Robert Jordan's setting, as written by him, then I think Dany saves the world from the Others and takes the Iron Throne. RJ was a pretty conservative author, who tended to play the good and evil, heroes and villains thing pretty straight. He also had a very low body count in his apocalypse story. The good guys got rewarded; the bad guys got their comeuppance. And Tuon's the only grey figure I can think of off the top of my head that prospered. I figure the likes of Ned, Robert, Catelyn, Robb and so forth survive all the way to the end if ASOIAF is a Jordan tale, probably with Robert abdicating in Dany's favour after she saves the day, and then heading off to the Free Cities to live happily ever after.

If the, ah, Westlands is another continent in George R. R. Martin’s setting, as written by him though, things get a bit different. GRRM has a certain theme of realistic consequences resulting from bad decisions, and goes out of his way to avoid deus ex machina solutions, albeit with a few instances where he fails his own standards in that regards, such as Summer just happening to be nearby on the night that the wildlings decide to test Jon’s loyalty.

Still. Despite such discrepancies, I don’t think many of the WOT cast would last long in ASOIAF. Moiraine, Lan and Nynaeve would likely have died at the Eye of the World, when they take on Aginor and Balthamel and lose. In the original scene, the Forsaken just beat them unconscious and leave them lying there without even any tasteful scars to show for their encounter. They even knock Lan aside with Air, despite it being an element we’re told is usually stronger in women than in men, whereas the much deadlier Fire is the opposite. I have to assume that if you were to encounter two of the evilest magicians in history in a GRRM tale, fight them, and lose ... you don’t get left alive. Few, if anyone, in Westeros has plot armour that thick.

And they definitely don’t have plot armour thick enough to get caught alone in a dark dungeon with someone like Padan Fain, armed with the Shadar Logoth dagger.

So Mat and Egwene don’t make it past the opening few chapters of book two. They die in the scene where Fain gets loose and takes the dagger from Mat’s belt. In the original, Fain just knocks them out, and Rand finds them later lying on the ground side by side but unharmed. Take a moment to imagine how that must have played out. Padan Fain, merged with Mordeth. Two evil sons of bitches. They get out of the cell, knock out one of the three ta’veren that Fain spends the whole series obsessively hating over, as well as the then girlfriend of another of those ta’veren, yet Fain, who will later attempt to wipe out the entire Two Rivers, and succeed in slaughtering Perrin’s whole extended family, Fain just crouches down, takes the dagger from the sheath at Mat’s belt and ... gets up and walks away. We’ve seen how easily that thing kills. All it takes is a scratch. He wouldn’t have even had to exert the force needed to stab the two unconscious teens in the heart, or take a step away from where he crouched to reach their flesh. Just two casual flicks of his wrist and both are gone forever. But he wanders off instead, to go rant for a dozen more books about how much he hates the ta’veren trio ... You need plot armour a foot thick, and made of feckin’ titanium, to survive that. GRRM would never have let them get out of that dungeon alive.

Rand I think might have made it as far as Falme, but is unlikely to have survived his duel with High Lord Turak. A lucky blow taking out a clearly superior fighter ... Maybe. Just maybe. But even if he survives Turak, he definitely wouldn’t survive the Stone of Tear. Run off alone to sneak into the greatest fortress in the land, where you’ll face off against a Forsaken who easily outmatches you? Nah. Stupid decisions like that get you killed in GRRMland.

Oddly enough, I think it’s Perrin who has the best chance of making it to the end of the tale. He makes the fewest bonehead decisions of the major WOT characters. He wouldn’t get anywhere near the Iron Throne, of course, but I could see him surviving the series and getting a happy ending, at least.

I can't help but roll my eyes at this kind of analysis. You're trying to argue that GRRM's world holds closer to realistic probability of survival, whereas, of course, all that happens is that he's a little more willing to let PoV characters die, except the ones he wants preserved for a pivotal role in the finale.

All you'd need to get similar results in WoT is to add a few more bodies with some PoV chapters, then kill em off at the moments you mention.

The whole analysis is particularly rich because we have a kid surviving a major fall very early in the series, characters surviving being repeatedly stabbed, one character is reborn multiple times, and some author favorites survive all sorts of odds to keep on living to play their plot purpose. And the idea that only the clever survive while the rich die off is confusing, since absolute morons like Jon and Cersei keep surviving. And what are we to make of the many close shaves of one Arya Stark, who dances into the Lions den, and should be dead multiple times in any realistic story?

I'd thought most people had moved past the idea of major character death as some kind of literary masterstroke, or particularly realistic aspect of writing. Authors pick PoVs of characters important to their story. Some die, some don't, and there's nothing particularly more real about more deaths among PoV characters. PoV characters are by definition not a representative sample of the population. 

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