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House of the Dragon Series Order Announced

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38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, if you read the history of the Dance it appears to me as an outline for a non-novel. It really lacks an arc of suspense, a climax, etc.

I agree with you that the anticlimactic/early payoff aspect of the Dance is an obstacle any show centered around it has to overcome.  My point was about the complaint that the show is somehow inherently diminished because we know the Targs eventually die off.

I'll give you one area of disagreement (since you seem to want to discuss) - I'm not too worried about the lack of sympathetic characters.  Good, successful shows make you interested in the characters, warts and all.  Examples are abound.  Look at Breaking Bad.  By all objective rights, Jesse is decidedly unlikeable/sympathetic - he's a meth dealer/junkie that kills people, albeit with consternation, ultimately to become a more prolific meth dealer.  But any Breaking Bad fan can't help but root for Jesse, even before his capture.  Of course there's the Sopranos example as well, where even among the "innocent" main characters (Tony's family, Adriana), Chase goes out of his way to show us the ugliest sides of them.

Obviously, that's not to say the show has to meet those two almost-impossible standards.  I suppose you could say it's a problem in attracting/keeping a mainstream audience, but I'm not even sure I agree with that.  Look at Walking Dead, which was incredibly popular for a period.  Most if not all main characters had distinctly unsympathetic characteristics to them.

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I wish the Long Night prequel had nothing to do with the Long Night. That was a bad idea from the start. But what I was mostly fascinated by was the idea of a vastly different Westeros. That also would have lend itself to some sort of creative freedom because there is almost nothing to draw on from the source material.

But a Targ show (or even 2) about something that is already known how it ends? A show about these pure-blood, incest, we-are better-than-everyone entitled conquerors who go 'submit or burn' on everyone with their WMDs? And then spend the rest of the time destroying each other because of the just mentioned characteristics? I would spend the entire show feeling sorry for the people of Westeros and the thousands who will loose their lives because these nutty idiots can't stop fighting each other in a competition of 'who is the most entitled'.

Oh well, I'm sure plenty of people are going to enjoy more 'tits&dragons with more incest'.

Edited by Mystical

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I agree with you that the anticlimactic/early payoff aspect of the Dance is an obstacle any show centered around it has to overcome.  My point was about the complaint that the show is somehow inherently diminished because we know the Targs eventually die off.

I didn't mean to say it is inherently diminished - after all, it would be a story about individual characters (and how they sucked at being a family and/or successful politicians and generals) - just that it affects the motivation of the people to become invested in those characters. Which also goes for the fact that, overall, the Dance is just going to be a rehash of the War of the Five Kings (i.e. a less complex succession war) with dragons. It is more or less the same story, lacking the outside supernatural threat of the Others.

In fact, while this Long Night series would have been lacking the 'game of thrones' element, the Dance show is now going to lack the fantasy element (dragons aside).

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'll give you one area of disagreement (since you seem to want to discuss) - I'm not too worried about the lack of sympathetic characters.  Good, successful shows make you interested in the characters, warts and all.  Examples are abound.  Look at Breaking Bad.  By all objective rights, Jesse is decidedly unlikeable/sympathetic - he's a meth dealer/junkie that kills people, albeit with consternation, ultimately to become a more prolific meth dealer.  But any Breaking Bad fan can't help but root for Jesse, even before his capture.  Of course there's the Sopranos example as well, where even among the "innocent" main characters (Tony's family, Adriana), Chase goes out of his way to show us the ugliest sides of them.

Didn't watch those shows, either ;-). I'd, however, say that a chemistry teacher suffering from cancer turning meth dealer is a much more complex and appealing character than any of the people we get in the FaB Dance outline. Self-involved royalty unable/unwilling who should sit in the chair may have problems to suck people in.

But you make a pretty good point there. I recently watched most of House of Cards and I was entertained. So perhaps that's not really that big of an issue (although addressing the audience directly really helps to draw you in there).

And I am looking forward to this thing. I'm just not expecting too much.

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I honestly love the idea of this being an anthology show. There are so many stories to tell, and it would also allow them to possibly sign-on some high profile actors, since they'd only be around for a season or two. 

It's kind of funny how George suggested buying Rogues and Dangerous Women in addition to Fire and Blood, seeing as F&B has the complete Dance. But hey, royalties, right? ;-) 

Fire and Blood being a history rather than a traditional novel also gives the showrunners more flexibility. They can make more changes without sacrificing the overall story.

The one thing I'm curious about is how they're going to differentiate the characters on a visual level. With the exception of two or three characters, all the Targs look the same.  People already had a hard time keeping the GOT characters straight; this time, they won't even be able to use House arms to differentiate them.

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the Hollywood Reporter's article on this was awful; it had a video with it, but got basic facts wrong even from the press release; i.e. stating "it wasn't one of the five ideas pitched in 2017" when Martin *directly stated that it was* one of those.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

just that it affects the motivation of the people to become invested in those characters. Which also goes for the fact that, overall, the Dance is just going to be a rehash of the War of the Five Kings (i.e. a less complex succession war) with dragons. It is more or less the same story, lacking the outside supernatural threat of the Others.

In fact, while this Long Night series would have been lacking the 'game of thrones' element, the Dance show is now going to lack the fantasy element (dragons aside).

Well, in terms of motivation, I'd say the first GoT spinoff is going to get more than a fair shot at first - they will certainly have a captive audience the first 1-2 eps.  At that point it's incumbent upon the show itself to keep those viewers.  Agree it's pretty interesting that a Dance show means there's pretty much no fantasy elements sans dragons.  I guess that means D&D got the last laugh.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd, however, say that a chemistry teacher suffering from cancer turning meth dealer is a much more complex and appealing character than any of the people we get in the FaB Dance outline. Self-involved royalty unable/unwilling who should sit in the chair may have problems to suck people in.

Jesse is not the chemistry teacher.  He's the low-level dealer/former student the chemistry teacher enlists to introduce him to the meth business.  Anyway, "self-involved royalty unable/unwilling/unworthy to sit in that chair" pretty much describes The Crown to a T, and that show is pretty successful with plenty of avid fans (myself included).

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Well, in terms of motivation, I'd say the first GoT spinoff is going to get more than a fair shot at first - they will certainly have a captive audience the first 1-2 eps.  At that point it's incumbent upon the show itself to keep those viewers.  Agree it's pretty interesting that a Dance show means there's pretty much no fantasy elements sans dragons.  I guess that means D&D got the last laugh.

I guess I'm just not sure that the Dance has the same potential as the actual ASoIaF book series to draw people in.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Jesse is not the chemistry teacher.  He's the low-level dealer/former student the chemistry teacher enlists to introduce him to the meth business.  Anyway, "self-involved royalty unable/unwilling/unworthy to sit in that chair" pretty much describes The Crown to a T, and that show is pretty successful with plenty of avid fans (myself included).

Hey, I said I didn't watch the show, so no reason to expect I know stuff ;-). But the point there was that - even without watching the thing - I find the main character of the show, the chemistry teacher, a possibly very interesting character on the basis of what I heard about the show.

If I had to summarize for somebody who is clueless what this 'House of the Dragon' show is going to be then I'd really have trouble to paint a very tantalizing picture on the basis of what I know about the Dance of the Dragons.

'The Crown' - which I also like very much - is more a historical soap opera. Not to mention that all self-involvement you get there is private stuff, nothing resembling real power plays.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The one thing I'm curious about is how they're going to differentiate the characters on a visual level. With the exception of two or three characters, all the Targs look the same.  People already had a hard time keeping the GOT characters straight; this time, they won't even be able to use House arms to differentiate them.

If they were to be doing multiple Targaryen kings/eras it could be actually be a great decision to cast the same actor/actress for multiple roles. Say, let the same guy play adult Maegor, Jaehaerys, and Daemon. Use the same actress for Rhaenyra, Viserra, Rhaena, and Rhaenys. And so on.

With all those Targaryens and Velaryons around one would have to focus on faces. But then, considering the actors won't be related or inbred there should be little actual physical resemblance.

And I'd definitely not complain if they decided not to make Alicent Hightower fair-haired (we have no description of her in the text), which could also allow them to give some or all of her children darker hair (although that migh then cause problems with the story of Rhaenyra's sons). But then, we also don't have detailed descriptions of Alicent's children or what Valyrian features they had, so there is room for variation there, even if they care about what the books say insofar as looks are concerned.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess I'm just not sure that the Dance has the same potential as the actual ASoIaF book series to draw people in.

In a vacuum that's virtually undeniable.  But any spinoff is going to have advantages GoT did not - at the beginning - thanks to the latter's success:  a much larger built-in audience, a much larger budget, and even ability to attract higher quality talent to produce/write/etc. the show.  Of course those heightened expectations mean increased pressure and scrutiny (from the media and fans alike), but dems the breaks.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If I had to summarize for somebody who is clueless what this 'House of the Dragon' show is going to be then I'd really have trouble to paint a very tantalizing picture on the basis of what I know about the Dance of the Dragons.

'The Crown' - which I also like very much - is more a historical soap opera. Not to mention that all self-involvement you get there is private stuff, nothing resembling real power plays.

I dunno, I think I could sell a show on the Dance - it's the goddamn Targaryen Civil War!  That's actually the most succinct and sexy tagline of any prospective prequel outside of the Conquest (and I suppose Robert's Rebellion, but I'm not counting that) to pitch to a casual viewer.

Fair point on The Crown not dealing with actual power, but the political back-dealing aspect of Martin's world is pretty close to a historical soap opera as well.  That's all politics is, really, no reason to get haughty about it.

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I hate it when people go "how are they going to differentiate the Targaryens, they all look the same!" 

How?  they all have silver-white hair and purple eyes?

By that logic, all Lannisters have golden blonde hair and green eyes, and Starks generally have black hair and grey eyes.

Most black people tend to have dark skin and dark eyes too.

But why is "they all have white hair and purple eyes" suddenly supposed to make them indistinguishable?

don't they dress differently?

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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

But why is "they all have white hair and purple eyes" suddenly supposed to make them indistinguishable?

Oh I don't know. How many people thought it was Viserys in the flashback of the R+L marriage that Bran visited? Because there were quite a few. Of course it was most likely just the same wig but even I thought that at first since the actor playing Rhaegar looked like Harry Lloyd in profile.

Not to mention that the major difference between this new show and GoT is that there were many different families in the mix. This show will probably be 90% just focused on Targs where 90% of them all have the same damn look.

Edited by Mystical

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6 hours ago, DMC said:

I think I could sell a show on the Dance - it's the goddamn Targaryen Civil War!

Honestly, the fact that it has gone straight to a series order kind of shows that no one needs to sell it. It has sold. The reaction on-line, from casual GoT fans, has largely been very positive when they get the gist that it'll be a political conflict with plenty of dragons, sex, and violence. It's certainly a much easier sell than The Long Night after the events of S8.

 

 

Edited by Ran

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HoD should begin with the conquest and leads up to the birth of Aneys and Meagor..2nd season Jeahaerys reign then The Dance.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Honestly, the fact that it has gone straight to a series order kind of shows that no one needs to sell it. It has sold. The reaction on-line, from casual GoT fans, has largely been very positive when they get the gist that it'll be a political conflict with plenty of dragons, sex, and violence. It's certainly a much easier sell than The Long Night after the events of S8.

 

The fans are not the ones HBO has to sell it to. Just like with GoT, it's the casuals and general audience that they need to attract to get the numbers.

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12 minutes ago, Mystical said:

The fans are not the ones HBO has to sell it to. Just like with GoT, it's the casuals and general audience that they need to attract to get the numbers.

GOT has had an audience of over 10 million people since the second season, over 15 million since the fourth, and over 20 million over the last three seasons. It really doesn't need to sell any audience that isn't already sold on GOT.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

GOT has had an audience of over 10 million people since the second season, over 15 million since the fourth, and over 20 million over the last three seasons. It really doesn't need to sell any audience that isn't already sold on GOT.

That's not the point I made. I responded to someone using the word 'fans'. Most of the viewers aren't fans as they can't even think of the names of the characters. They only watched because it was the 'IT' show to see. That doesn't make them fans.

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Just now, Mystical said:

That's not the point I made. I responded to someone using the word 'fans'. Most of the viewers aren't fans as they can't even think of the names of the characters. They only watched because it was the 'IT' show to see. That doesn't make them fans.

Yeah, I'm not going to be a puritan about who is or is not a "fan". If you watched Game of Thrones regularly and were interested in what happened, even if you couldn't keep their names straight or remember all the details from episode to episode, you are a "GOT casual fan" in my book.

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26 minutes ago, Mystical said:

That's not the point I made. I responded to someone using the word 'fans'. Most of the viewers aren't fans as they can't even think of the names of the characters. They only watched because it was the 'IT' show to see. That doesn't make them fans.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but this show doesn't need to attract anyone outside the existing GOT audience. Not that it won't, but it doesn't need to. If it can retain even half of the GOT audience to start it will probably be in a pretty decent position. This show isn't starting from scratch. It has the potential to tap into a massive existing fanbase from day one. And unlike GOT, in this the dragons are already grown, and both sides have them from the start.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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7 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

If it can retain even half of the GOT audience to start it will probably be in a pretty decent position.

More than decent. If it premieres to half of GoT S8's viewership, it will have an audience 5-6 times higher than the premieres of Watchmen or Westworld.

If it premeries with a quarter of GoT S8's premiere, it will be a dandy start. I'm sure HBO hopes for more than that, of course, and obviously what will really matter is growth over time as I'm pretty sure that, short of an absolute catastrophe in terms of reception, HBO is probably committing themselves to at least three seasons.

Edited by Ran

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On 10/31/2019 at 8:41 AM, The Dragon Demands said:


 

We’re finally going to get an answer on what color Vhagar was.


 

That would be great. I really hope they will show in detail the "Battle Above the God's Eye" pitting Prince Daemon Targaryen riding Ceraxes (covered in red scales-perfect for a Targaryen) verses Prince Aemond Targaryen riding his dragon Vhager. These were two of the fiercest dragons at the time. Daemon reportedly jumped off his dragon and attacked Aemond on Vhager (Aemond had limited mobility as he had secured himself in his saddle) with Daemon killing Aemond by plunging his sword Dark Sister into the remaining eye of Aemond. Both riders and their dragons died, but Daemon's body was never found (leading some to believe he was rescued by his possible paramour Nettles (with her dragon Sheepstealer), but there is no reported evidence to support this, but who knows what they might change in the show-but probably not. 

Edited by DisneyDoc2425
Initially had reversed dragons

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