Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Narsil4]

I think it may come down to Ned being negligent because of his obsession with honor.

He basically threw her head first and weaponless into a pit of southern vipers.

Then she ends up having to learn to survive from people like Cersei and Littlefinger. 

[Nagini's Neville]

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

People disagreeing with something doesn't make it impossible. I'm saying there was no good way for him to rescue his sisters so not doing so is not a disloyalty to them. 

If he had the capability to rescue them & just didn't that may be another story but what was he to do? Storm KL? That would have gotten them all killed. Should he have traded Jaime for them? Look what happened when Cat did just that.

Of course he should have traded Jaime for them. Cat had to do it that way, because he forbid it. He was very vehemently against trading them. And later even did admit, that it would have been the right thing to do. 

It would have been a very easy and safe way to get her back, instead she was tortured in KL.

 

“Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It’s her brother she’ll want, as you know full well.” She had told him as much before, but Catelyn was finding that kings do not listen half so attentively as sons. “I can’t release the Kingslayer, not even if I wanted to. My lords would never abide it.” “Your lords made you their king.” “And can unmake me just as easy.” “If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly. Half your lords would like to murder Lannister in his cell. If he should die while he’s your prisoner, men will say—” “—that he well deserved it,” Robb finished. “And your sisters?” Catelyn asked sharply. “Will they deserve their deaths as well? I promise you, if any harm comes to her brother, Cersei will pay us back blood for blood—” “Lannister won’t die,” Robb said. “No one so much as speaks to him without my warrant. He has food, water, clean straw, more comfort than he has any right to. But I won’t free him, not even for Arya and Sansa.”  

(...)

“I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for father, but …” “… but not for the girls?” Her voice was icy quiet. “Girls are not important enough, are they?”

A Clash of Kings,  Cat 1 

 

He knows full well he could have gotten them back. Cersei and Tyrion want Jaime.

“He swore to trade her for his brother,” she said numbly. “Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?” “He’s the Kingslayer’s brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood.” 

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

 

And later even he admits it was stupid, because of strategic reasons.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.”

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

[Nagini's Neville]

58 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville That's the thing though, Ned didn't see the warning signs in Joffrey. He was, just like Sansa, brushing it under the rug. Ned even says at one moment that he had a small liking towards Joffrey and when Robert said otherwise his reaction was basically 'boys will be boys'. This happened after the Darry incident.

I definitely agree. I just don't understand how Sansa should have gotten it, when her own father was even unable to spot those signs. I like Ned. He has flaws, that make him human. I just think he should be held more accountable than Sansa with this whole issue. Or at least she shouldn't be judged to harshly, because even Ned got it way to late.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He could have exchanged Jaime for them if he wished to derail his whole cause (which is what happened when his mother did) This is assuming the Lannisters would have agreed to this exchange anyway. Remember they don't even have Arya so how can they agree to an exchange for someone they don't have? 

I don't understand how thinking he should have married her to someone equates he could have gotten her back if he really wanted to. What do you propose he do to get them back? He couldn't storm KL & he couldn't trade Jaime, which is evidenced by the fact that this was actually attempted. Not by him, but by Cat. 

He did nothing to be disloyal to his family. He called the banners & went to war, for his family. 

 

His whole cause was a revenge war, in which a lot of ppl died. He had multiple options to choose from (more than can be said for most other ppl) He decided to stay king of the North and fight his war. And in that he sacrificed Sansa (and he also thought he was sacrificing Arya) That's apparent in my last pot.

It didn't work for Cat, because she had to do it the wrong way.

An official hostage exchange would have of course looked very differently. With lots of guards and stuff. Was done all the time during and after wartime and shouldn't have been difficult at all. 

And Tyrion and Cersei both desperately wanted Jaime back.

I think the quotes show well enough that Robb definitely thought it was possible, but so vehemently against it, that he didn't even consider thinking about the practicalities.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Mordred said:

There exists a gender bias among the fans.  The females get less slack than the boys.  It's true.  However, Sansa still behaved badly by any measure and caused the demise of her family. 

This isn't so much a comparison between male and female, but between child and adult. Daughter and father/caretaker. (I would actually argue the women get more slack that the men, but whatever- I don't even really care) 

There is an old guy, who knows a lot about the world and has a lot of responsibility and than there is a kid, who doesn't know shit and is self-centered, cause that's how kids are.

And she did absolutely not cause the demise of her family. Ned did. As I already listed the obvious reason. The moment he told Cersei, he knew about the kids it was over. Can nobody tell me Cersei, just twiddled her thumbs after that, when her children were in danger. Nah, she was teaming up with LF, who also knew interesting things about Ned and was getting ready for every possibility.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 hours ago, Mordred said:

 Jon Snow was doing what was expected of him as a man of the watch.  The sisters are no longer his to worry about.  He only has his new sworn brothers and the defense of the wall for family.  That satisfied most men but Jon is an emotional person who acts based on how he feels.  He likes Arya; therefore, he worried about her.  He and Sansa were never on good terms and his feelings for the red head was not as deeply felt.  Martin wrote his character that way.  You could say Jon was sitting on the fence all of the time.  He had one ass cheek at the Night Watch and the other chunk of blob at the Starks.  He didn't let go of the Starks as was expected of him. 

Robb Stark needed to put the war effort head of the family.  The victory depended on what he can do with MVP Jaime.  I would not trade Jaime for Sansa and Arya.  Knowing the value the enemy placed on Jaime.  Jaime was their salvation in a war they were losing.  You don't throw that away for your siblings. 

I'm not accusing Jon of anything, I'm just saying he and Sansa both kind of don't care about one another - that's all.

And I actually totally disagree. Most ppl would find it incredible difficult to just stay in a military organization, while not so far away their family is murdered, imprisoned, lost, married against their will and fighting a war. I would even argue, you got to be a bit psychopathic, if that didn't to affected you deeply . And it at least would demand tremendous willpower not to rush to their aid and most would fail.

Robb Stark didn't need to do anything. Nobody forced him to fight this war. And yeah I personally would throw that away for the lives and well-beings of my siblings. I basically would throw everything away for that.

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Of course he should have traded Jaime for them. Cat had to do it that way, because he forbid it. He was very vehemently against trading them. And later even did admit, that it would have been the right thing to do. 

 It would have been a very easy and safe way to get her back, instead she was tortured in KL.

No he couldn't. Look how Robb's banerman reacted to what Catelyn did, and the whole Karstark mess...

If was Robb in person that did it or authorized it he would suffer mass desertion.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

No he couldn't. Look how Robb's banerman reacted to what Catelyn did, and the whole Karstark mess...

If was Robb in person that did it or authorized it he would suffer mass desertion.

Well, that's exactly my point. He also did other things like not hold his promise to the Freys and kill Karstark. When he wanted to, he found a way. He even said himself later, getting Sansa back would have been strategically wise.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.”

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

So he could have found a way, but he didn't even consider it.

He also maybe... could have just ended his war or not even entered it. He could have gotten Sansa back. His father declared himself a traitor to save his daughters and Robb just leaves them there. Instead Sansa was abused in KL and he couldn't be sure they wouldn't kill her as well. They had just murdered his father against their own best interests.

"Your lords made you their king.” “And can unmake me just as easy.” “If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly."

Robb had his list of priorities and Sansa and Arya just weren't very high on that list.

[frenin]

Sansa hate goes still strong.

 

@Here's Looking At You, Kid

What did the Starks di to Aerys children and why they deserved that again??

 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar

Sansa and Arya are not comparable, we already had this conversation, Arya lacked of so many Sansa's traits, her beayty and her lady skills?? That made her develop a completely different mindset, that happen with Jon and Robb and with Tyrion and Jaime, Cersei.

Sansa didn't betrayed anyone, nor she was disloyal to anyone, she wasn't thinking on the consequences, just as Ned, Robb, Jon or Cat didn't think on the consequences either and i don't think no one is calling Cat disloyal for freeing Jaime.

 

@Elegant Woes

People sympathize far more with the rebel teenager who "seeks to break the gender roles and the yoke of patriarchy and  runs away with her true love, because to hell with social conventions and  so on" than with the naive little girl who's only dream is to marry Prince charming and tries to fullfil that dream.

That's why Lyanna and Rhaegar foolishness are pinned down on everyone but them, and ofc were accepted and blessed by Elia and the whole Dorne.

And Sansa who is an eleven year with no understanding of the sociopolitical realities is thrown to the dogs,  basixally everyone wants to be and cheer for a Lyanna but being a Sansa is awful.

[Eli Cross]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa is just being a typical teenager. Teens do the opposite of whatever parents say, especially if they make demands.  "I command you to do this thing" --> teenager does the opposite of the thing.

Adults from both houses pushed for this match and Sansa ran with it. Sansa has no idea why her father has switched sides, she doesn't even know that Joffrey is a bastard (even though she unintentionally helped Ned realize that). Catelyn wanted the match so that the Stark family could look unquestionably devoted while Ned investigated Jon Arryn's murder. Now, suddenly...they don't. No wonder Sansa is confused. Breaking a betrothal is a big deal and her father should have been better prepared. He definitely shouldn't have waited for Cersei to turn herself in. 

I think not.  The average teenager would know the importance of keeping this matter a secret.  Sansa had seen all the warning signs of trouble with the Baratheons.  The killing of her wolf, which was her fault.  The death of the butcher's son.  The banishment of Nymeria.  Sansa was all partly to blame for all of that.  I am not a hater but it is fair to lay blame where it belongs. 

[Eli Cross]

The consequences are not overestimated because of the far reaching effects it had on the family.  I am not sure if it will have any further consequences beyond the Starks though. 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, that's exactly my point. He also did other things like not hold his promise to the Freys and kill Karstark. When he wanted to, he found a way. He even said himself later, getting Sansa back would have been strategically wise.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.”

A Storm of Swords Cat 3

So I could have found a way, but he didn't even consider it.

He also maybe... could have just ended his war or not even entered it. He could have gotten Sansa back. His father declared himself a traitor to save his daughters and Robb just leaves them there. Instead Sansa was abused in KL and he couldn't be sure they wouldn't kill her as well. They had just murdered his father against their own best interests.

"Your lords made you their king.” “And can unmake me just as easy.” “If your crown is the price we must pay to have Arya and Sansa returned safe, we should pay it willingly."

Robb had his list of priorities and Sansa and Arya just weren't very high on that list.

It should have been higher on his priorities. Joffrey's execution of Ned showed that he was unpredictable and would do things that were stupid as long as he got sadistic pleasure out of it. What if Joffrey decided to execute Sansa because he felt like it or Meryn Trant beat her to death?

[Rose of Red Lake]

13 minutes ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

I think not.  The average teenager would know the importance of keeping this matter a secret.  Sansa had seen all the warning signs of trouble with the Baratheons.  The killing of her wolf, which was her fault.  The death of the butcher's son.  The banishment of Nymeria.  Sansa was all partly to blame for all of that.  I am not a hater but it is fair to lay blame where it belongs. 

It's not fair to solely blame her for his death, to ignore how other characters are similarly deluded, or to blame her without bothering to understand the context of age or experience, which is what you're doing. Teenagers make disastrous mistakes and ignore "warning signs" to themselves and others. Not only that, King's Landing is a place neither she or her father understood very well. She's thrust into a high stakes game and it's normal for her to react as she has, because her parents haven't prepared her for it, because they're also too trusting. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

I think not.  The average teenager would know the importance of keeping this matter a secret.  Sansa had seen all the warning signs of trouble with the Baratheons.  The killing of her wolf, which was her fault.  The death of the butcher's son.  The banishment of Nymeria.  Sansa was all partly to blame for all of that.  I am not a hater but it is fair to lay blame where it belongs. 

The Hound had killed Mycah long before she even said a single word. The killing of Lady was King Bobby's Cersei's and Ned's fault. Cersei would have gotten a dead direwolf no matter. And Nymeria couldn't have stayed no matter what. Bobby didn't want trouble with his wife. He knew she would hold it against him and he didn't care about the direwolfs or the children's feelings. This trail was just for show. The direwolf was already dead and Mycah as well. You don't "attack" the crown prince without consequences. As long as if Joff didn't change his story, nothing would have changed at all. It was much more a power battle between Bobby and Cersei than anything else. For Cersei sees her children as an extension of herself.

And yeah, actually the average teenager does go against their parents wishes every now and again. It's normal and Sansa is not even a teenager yet- just 11. 

And her own father did not even see the warning signs and when he did he ignored them for a good while. 

[Angel Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The Hound had killed Mycah long before she even said a single word. The killing of Lady was King Bobby's Cersei's and Ned's fault. Cersei would have gotten a dead direwolf no matter. And Nymeria couldn't have stayed no matter what. Bobby didn't want trouble with his wife. He knew she would hold it against him and he didn't care about the direwolfs or the children's feelings. This trail was just for show. The direwolf was already dead and Mycah as well. You don't "attack" the crown prince without consequences. As long as if Joff didn't change his story, nothing would have changed at all. It was much more a power battle between Bobby and Cersei than anything else. For Cersei sees her children as an extension of herself.

And yeah, actually the average teenager does go against their parents wishes every now and again. It's normal and Sansa is not even a teenager yet- just 11. 

And her own father did not even see the warning signs and when he did he ignored them for a good while. 

I don’t know why Ned ignored the walking red flag that Littlefinger was. Did Ned never think that Littlefinger wouldn’t double-cross him or want revenge because he married Catelyn?

[Nagini's Neville]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It should have been higher on his priorities. Joffrey's execution of Ned showed that he was unpredictable and would do things that were stupid as long as he got sadistic pleasure out of it. What if Joffrey decided to execute Sansa because he felt like it or Meryn Trant beat her to death?

Could have been very possible. That's why I'm saying he basically sacrificed her (and also Arya). I don't think it is something, that he acknowledges or he allows himself to think about at all, but deep down he knows it's true and is willing to take the possible consequences. Imo the death of Ned really hit him hard and to get justice for that his high on his priority list, because that's also a way for him to deal with his pain. 

It's also wartimes Sansa already could have died in multiple ways: Joff, the riot, BotB

[Angel Eyes]

20 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Could have been very possible. That's why I'm saying he basically sacrificed her (and also Arya). I don't think it is something, that he acknowledges or he allows himself to think about at all, but deep down he knows it's true and is willing to take the possible consequences. Imo the death of Ned really hit him hard and to get justice for that his high on his priority list, because that's also a way for him to deal with his pain. 

It's also wartimes Sansa already could have died in multiple ways: Joff, the riot, BotB

Then Robb lost his purpose. And because he didn't try to rescue Sansa, his mother felt the need to free Jaime.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don’t know why Ned ignored the walking red flag that Littlefinger was. Did Ned never think that Littlefinger wouldn’t double-cross him or want revenge because he married Catelyn?

I will never understand it either. Sometimes I think it was mostly there for the plot to work. He even gives him LFish lessons. like he later does with Sansa. I don't even think LF planed to betray Ned from the start. He waited to see how things would develop. He probably also was figuring out if Ned would turn out to be someone he could mold into someone useful to him. But just because of the Cat issue Ned should have been carful.

And LF even said this to him in the first third of the novel:

“Lord Petyr,” Ned called after him. “I … am grateful for your help. Perhaps I was wrong to distrust you.” Littlefinger fingered his small pointed beard. “You are slow to learn, Lord Eddard. Distrusting me was the wisest thing you’ve done since you climbed down off your horse.”

A Game of Thrones Eddard 5

And throughout the novel Ned actually states a lot how he mistrusts basically almost every important figure in KL, so he knows they are untrustworthy. Still his behavior very often just doesn't reflect it. Dunno why. His honor taking over?

[Eli Cross]

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's not fair to solely blame her for his death, to ignore how other characters are similarly deluded, or to blame her without bothering to understand the context of age or experience, which is what you're doing. Teenagers make disastrous mistakes and ignore "warning signs" to themselves and others. Not only that, King's Landing is a place neither she or her father understood very well. She's thrust into a high stakes game and it's normal for her to react as she has, because her parents haven't prepared her for it, because they're also too trusting. 

Sansa does not have to take the full blame.  That's unfair.  She is partly to blame. 

[Nagini's Neville]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Then Robb lost his purpose. And because he didn't try to rescue Sansa, his mother felt the need to free Jaime.

The sad thing is it might have really helped them to get her back. A marriage alliance with the Tyrells or some other house could have been useful.