Jump to content
Angel Eyes

Robb lost his purpose and that's why he lost the War.

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He crowned himself. If you are allergic to nuts and someone offers you some nuts and you eat the nuts and have an allergic reaction whose fault is that? Who was responsible for eating the Nuts?

Other suggestions were made before the idea of Robb being Crowned was brought up, they were shot down, some by Robb himself. He is in charge in this situation, he does not have to bend to what others suggest.

He didn't crown himself, if someone puts me between the wall and the sword and says to me eait peanuts or else it's not my fault.

I didn't see any suggestion was made and accepted as the King in the North, more likely because that wasn't a suggestion

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. That is wrong, reread the chapter and quote all the bannerman who state they won't accept any other outcome?

Either you are not familiar with the chapter or you are being disingenuous here. For starters only a minority of the Lords of the North were present, the majority were elsewhere and were not consulted on this. Secondly the Lord who suggested it, Greatjon, had a month earlier, before Robb had proven himself on the battlefield, made an actual ultimatum and Robb told him no and put him in his place.

This idea that Robb was forced into it is a kop out.

Those bannermen there weren't taking other outcome and as i  said before, had that ultimatum counted with the same support Jon had a month earlier, he could've said no.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes it was. Others suggested following Stannis, others suggested Renly, some even peace.. Robb was not forced into any of those. The Riverlords, the largest faction of Lords present, wanted Robb to attack Harrenhal and expel the Lannisters from the Riverlands, he said no to that.

You are truly taking away Robb's agency. Robb had a choice, he chose the Crown (like many, many pretenders before him).

Yes, others suggested other things, he could say no because they were deliberating but his crowning and Greatjon's speech had nothing of a suggestion and the fact that everyone present agreeed with him left him with no

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, frenin said:

He didn't crown himself, if someone puts me between the wall and the sword and says to me eait peanuts or else it's not my fault.

Who do you think put the sword to Robb and made him be King? I'm happy to go over this with you, please quote from the books where Robb was intimidated and made to be King.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

I didn't see any suggestion was made and accepted as the King in the North, more likely because that wasn't a suggestion

Sorry, please repeat as I'm not sure what you are saying here.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Those bannermen there weren't taking other outcome and as i  said before, had that ultimatum counted with the same support Jon had a month earlier, he could've said no.

What ultimatum?

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Yes, others suggested other things, he could say no because they were deliberating but his crowning and Greatjon's speech had nothing of a suggestion and the fact that everyone present agreeed with him left him with no

Everyone present? Most of the Northern Lords were not present.

Where in the books is it suggested that poor Robb was forced to become King?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

I thought he lost the war cos he lost his virginity

Depends on when Freys get wind of him marrying Jeyne and when Catelyn frees Jaime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robb became a villain when he allowed Greatjon to name him king.  He can't be king while the north is part of the kingdom.  He was going to make the north independent by carving it out of the kingdom. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Robb became a villain when he allowed Greatjon to name him king.  He can't be king while the north is part of the kingdom.  He was going to make the north independent by carving it out of the kingdom. 

No such thing as Villain and Heroes in this fantasy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Depends on when Freys get wind of him marrying Jeyne and when Catelyn frees Jaime.

The freys were jumping ship before getting the knews of the marriage of Jeyne...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, they were not. They jump ship the chapter they found out about it.

Even before the news arrive we have this:

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother’s side, nodded vigorously. “If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?” He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.

“Someone must have the courage to say it,” Ser Hosteen said. “The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that.”

Roose Bolton studied him with pale eyes. “His Grace has defeated the Lannisters every time he has faced them in battle.”

“He has lost the north,” insisted Hosteen Frey. “He has lost Winterfell! His brothers are dead . . .”

...

“Stannis lost,” Ser Hosteen said bluntly. “Wishing it were otherwise will not make it so. King Robb must make his peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Arthur Peres said:

Even before the news arrive we have this:

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother’s side, nodded vigorously. “If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?” He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.

“Someone must have the courage to say it,” Ser Hosteen said. “The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that.”

Roose Bolton studied him with pale eyes. “His Grace has defeated the Lannisters every time he has faced them in battle.”

“He has lost the north,” insisted Hosteen Frey. “He has lost Winterfell! His brothers are dead . . .”

...

“Stannis lost,” Ser Hosteen said bluntly. “Wishing it were otherwise will not make it so. King Robb must make his peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it.”

eh? They want Robb to see sense, but they are still serving him, calling him King. Would they have stood down if Robb refused to be pragmatic, certainly, but they were giving him the chance decide.  Once they found out about Jeyne they no longer give Robb that option.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? They want Robb to see sense, but they are still serving him, calling him King. Would they have stood down if Robb refused to be pragmatic, certainly, but they were giving him the chance decide.  Once they found out about Jeyne they no longer give Robb that option.

 

No. They are jumping the ship once the war is lost. Martin himself tell us:

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form.

and is exactly what they were doing there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2019 at 1:00 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Who do you think put the sword to Robb and made him be King? I'm happy to go over this with you, please quote from the books where Robb was intimidated and made to be King.

Quote

Those who were shouting King in the North did, noone there gave Robb an option to say no, Greatjon gave his speech and everyone went along.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, frenin said:

Those who were shouting King in the North did, noone there gave Robb an option to say no, Greatjon gave his speech and everyone went along.

Where is it claimed in the book that Robb had no option to say 'no'?

You claimed he had no choice, this is not true at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

No. They are jumping the ship once the war is lost. Martin himself tell us:

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form.

and is exactly what they were doing there.

It is not what they were doing there. Jumping ship would be jumping ship, not wanting Robb to see sense.

They would jump ship much later if Robb refused to listen to reason, but they still wanted to give him the opportunity to do so. They only jump ship at that point because of his marriage to Jeyne.

And yeah, most lords would back down from a war they can't win eventually, the Freys are no different to the majority of other Lords in that respect. GRRM is writing historical fantasy fiction, they are not NPC's in a computer game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/15/2019 at 7:37 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Where is it claimed in the book that Robb had no option to say 'no'?

You claimed he had no choice, this is not true at all.

Where is claimed that he had a choice?? Those who were there did not ask him nothing, they just hailed him as King, there was no turning back from there.

And did the northern bannermen who were not there complain?? Did they say that Robb should not have crowned himself??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2019 at 12:13 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Even before the news arrive we have this:

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother’s side, nodded vigorously. “If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?” He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.

“Someone must have the courage to say it,” Ser Hosteen said. “The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that.”

Roose Bolton studied him with pale eyes. “His Grace has defeated the Lannisters every time he has faced them in battle.”

“He has lost the north,” insisted Hosteen Frey. “He has lost Winterfell! His brothers are dead . . .”

...

“Stannis lost,” Ser Hosteen said bluntly. “Wishing it were otherwise will not make it so. King Robb must make his peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it.”

This is not jumping ship.  This is an ally giving good advise.  There is nothing wrong with what Hosteen was counseling.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2019 at 7:00 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Who do you think put the sword to Robb and made him be King? I'm happy to go over this with you, please quote from the books where Robb was intimidated and made to be King.

Sorry, please repeat as I'm not sure what you are saying here.

What ultimatum?

Everyone present? Most of the Northern Lords were not present.

Where in the books is it suggested that poor Robb was forced to become King?

 

Was there any way for him not to be King if the rest of the bannermen declared him their king?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2019 at 12:16 PM, Bernie Mac said:

eh? They want Robb to see sense, but they are still serving him, calling him King. Would they have stood down if Robb refused to be pragmatic, certainly, but they were giving him the chance decide.  Once they found out about Jeyne they no longer give Robb that option.

 

They were expressing doubts whether the war could be won.  They did not switch sides until Robb betrayed them and Tywin took advantage of it.  I wouldn't claim no influence from Roose.  Perhaps he was whispering in Walder's ear but the Freys did not leave Robb until after he refused to marry a daughter of the house.  They left the battle field at the news.  It was not subtle when they refused to fight for Robb.

Edited by Targaryen Restoration

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was there any way for him not to be King if the rest of the bannermen declared him their king?

Yes, refuse the Crown. He was the military leader who was already ordering his Lords what to do even before he proved himself at the battle of the Camps and Battle of Riverrun.

If he was able to tell the Northern Lords what to do in the North, when he was untested, the idea that at Riverrun, with only a handful of Northern lords present, would have to give into their demands is ridiculous.

Robb was not born into a King, he chose to be one. That is on him, no one else. Frenin is coming up with misguided reasons why a character he likes messed up. By his logic we can't blame Tywin or Aerys for anything they've done wrong either because 'maybe their Lords forced them to do what they did'. He/She does not present a consistent argument.

 

Frankly if it is idiotic to think he was threatened into taking the Crown.

 

  • Cat makes no mention of this in her next chapter. If her son was threatened by his own Lords into doing something she'd have some concern about his safety with them.
  • Robb being threatened by his Lords makes zero sense considering once he becomes King he pretty much ignores all their advice. None of his Lords wanted him to go West, that was Robb, the larger Riverland army wanted him to fight Tywin. He happily ignores them.
  • Robb is not concerned about his Northern lords when he sentences Karstark to death, infact when he decides to do so it is only the Blackfish, Edmure and his mother he listens to. If he was some puppet king made to take the Crown his Lords would have far greater say in his decisions.

 

Some, sadly, wants it both ways, they wants to take away agency from Robb when he makes bad decisions, but do not do the same when Robb makes good decisions. If they were at all consistent in his arguments they'd be crediting the Northern lords, not Robb, for his victories at the Camps, Oxcorss and Riverrun.

Edited by Bernie Mac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×