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On Janos Slynt

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@Hugorfonics, I’m having a hard time breaking up your post to reply, I think because I had copied it from the other thread. But I’ll be back. :P

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Jon was wrong to kill Janos Slynt.  Jon's application of justice was flawed, biased, and inconsistent.  Justice was not served.  Jon allowed the worst criminal in the north off the hook, Mance Rayder.  That was incompetent judgement when you consider what he did to Slynt over something minor.  Mance Rayder is a deserter and an oathbreaker who deserved to get his head removed.  Two men of the Night's Watch and Jon treated them differently.  Jon was incapable of carrying justice because he was thinking of the Starks. 

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18 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon was wrong to kill Janos Slynt.  Jon's application of justice was flawed, biased, and inconsistent.  Justice was not served.  Jon allowed the worst criminal in the north off the hook, Mance Rayder.  That was incompetent judgement when you consider what he did to Slynt over something minor.  Mance Rayder is a deserter and an oathbreaker who deserved to get his head removed.  Two men of the Night's Watch and Jon treated them differently.  Jon was incapable of carrying justice because he was thinking of the Starks. 

So you think someone who refused to obey orders and insulted jon in front of several nw brothers shouldn t be killed? And I am probably forgeting more things jannos did...

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So, @Hugorfonics, my replies that you quoted are in bold. What you replied, in italics. Then my replies to your replies, and a line break to separate each part. So confusing lol. 

I think you’re way off here... I won’t derail the thread [further], but nope, he wasn’t. Not even close.”

At the least its close. So heres the results from the 3rd and 2nd to last vote

  Quote

Seven remained as of last night. Ser Denys Mallister had collected two hundred and thirteen tokens, Cotter Pyke one hundred and eighty-seven, Lord Slynt seventy-four, Othell Yarwyck sixty, Bowen Marsh forty-nine, Three-Finger Hobb five, and Dolorous Edd Tollett one. Pyp and his stupid japes. Sam shuffled through the earlier counts. Ser Denys, Cotter Pyke, and Bowen Marsh had all been falling since the third day, Othell Yarwyck since the sixth. Only Lord Janos Slynt was climbing, day after day after day.

Two hundred and three for Ser Denys Mallister," he said. "One hundred and sixty-nine for Cotter Pyke. One hundred and thirty-seven for Lord Janos Slynt, seventy-two for Othell Yarwyck, five for Three-Finger Hobb, and two for Dolorous Edd."

So it looks like Janos is gaining popularity along with Yarwyck and Edd, all CB folk, obviously. The majority of Pyke and Mallisters votes are cast by Pyke and Mallister, not residents of CB

You were allowed to have a friend cast your token if you had duty, so some men took two tokens, three, or four, and Ser Denys and Cotter Pyke voted for the garrisons they had left behind.

So, in conclusion, numbers dont lie. Janos had a strong following in CB

 

Yes. Slynt was gaining more support. But not because he’s popular, or people like him, or anything of the sort. He’s gaining more support b/c all the arseholes are running against each other. And at one point they realise they’re not gonna get anywhere that way. So they withdraw their names and back Slynt. And again, they decide to back Slynt not because they like him, but because on top of being arseholes, they’re lickspittles and they’re terrified of Tywin Lannister, and Slynt is Tywin’s man. 

ASoS, Tyrion IV

“Here is his letter, my lord, a plea to all five kings. He wants men, as many men as we can send him.”
“Five kings?” His father was annoyed. “There is one king in Westeros. Those fools in black might try and remember that if they wish His Grace to heed them. When you reply, tell him that Renly is dead and the others are traitors and pretenders.”
“No doubt they will be glad to learn it. The Wall is a world apart, and news oft reaches them late.” Pycelle bobbed his head up and down. “What shall I tell Marsh concerning the men he begs for? Shall we convene the council . . . ”
“There is no need. The Night’s Watch is a pack of thieves, killers, and baseborn churls, but it occurs to me that they could prove otherwise, given proper discipline. If Mormont is indeed dead, the black brothers must choose a new Lord Commander.”

“Pycelle gave Tyrion a sly glance. “An excellent thought, my lord. I know the very man. Janos Slynt.”
Tyrion liked that notion not at all. “The black brothers choose their own commander,” he reminded them. “Lord Slynt is new to the Wall. I know, I sent him there. Why should they pick him over a dozen more senior men?”
Because,” his father said, in a tone that suggested Tyrion was quite the simpleton, “if they do not vote as they are told, their Wall will melt before it sees another man.”
Yes, that would work. Tyrion hitched forward. “Janos Slynt is the wrong man, Father. We’d do better with the commander of the Shadow Tower. Or Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.”
“The commander of the Shadow Tower is a Mallister of Seagard. Eastwatch is held by an ironman.” Neither would serve his purposes, Lord Tywin’s tone said clear enough.”

“Janos Slynt is a butcher’s son,” Tyrion reminded his father forcefully. “You yourself told me—”
“I recall what I told you. Castle Black is not Harrenhal, however. The Night’s Watch is not the king’s council. There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool.”
Tyrion’s anger flashed. “Lord Janos is a hollow suit of armor who will sell himself to the highest bidder.”
I count that a point in his favor. Who is like to bid higher than us?” He turned to Pycelle. “Send a raven. Write that King Joffrey was deeply saddened to hear of Lord Commander Mormont’s death, but regrets that he can spare no men just now, whilst so many rebels and usurpers remain in the field. Suggest that matters might be quite different once the throne is secure . . . provided the king has full confidence in the leadership of the Watch. In closing, ask Marsh to pass along His Grace’s fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant, Lord Janos Slynt.”

And then:

ASoS, Jon XII

“The sound of voices echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. “I don’t know,” a man was saying, in a voice thick with doubts. “Maybe if I knew the man better . . . Lord Stannis didn’t have much good to say of him, I’ll tell you that.”
“When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?” Ser Alliser’s flinty voice was unmistakable. “If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He’s already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater.”
Lord Tywin favors Slynt,” said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. “I can show you his letter, Othell. ‘Our faithful friend and servant’ he called him.”
Jon Snow sat up suddenly, and the three men froze at the sound of the slosh. “My lords,” he said with cold courtesy.
“What are you doing here, bastard?” Thorne asked.
“Bathing. But don’t let me spoil your plotting.” Jon climbed from the water, dried, dressed, and left them to conspire.”

 

——————————————————————————————————-

:wideeyed:

Unless he saw (probably true) a plotter and a soon to be mutineer, in which case, good job Jon; No mutiny here at CB”

 

I mean, there was... Stabbed 4 times

The arseholes started plotting the attempt on Jon’s life long before it happened. And Slynt was in the thick of it from the get-go. 

ASoS, Jon X

“You will die in here, Lord Snow,” Ser Alliser had said just before he closed the heavy wooden door, and Jon had believed it. But this morning they had come and pulled him out again, and marched him cramped and shivering back to the King’s Tower, to stand before jowly Janos Slynt once more.
“That old maester says I cannot hang you,” Slynt declared. “He has written Cotter Pyke, and even had the bloody gall to show me the letter. He says you are no turncloak.”
“Aemon’s lived too long, my lord,” Ser Alliser assured him. “His wits have gone dark as his eyes.”
“Aye,” Slynt said. “A blind man with a chain about his neck, who does he think he is?”
Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king’s son and a king’s brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing.”

 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

The arseholes started plotting the attempt on Jon’s life long before it happened. And Slynt was in the thick of it from the get-go. 

Yup! Slynt wanted to have Jon hanged frmo the get go. Him and Alliser sent Jon to Mance to kill him, knowing that if he did, he'd never return - a suicide mission. Jon was going to, but then Stannis showed up.

Slynt keeps alluding to having friends (in high places). That can only be Tywin. Further plotting was put on pause for a while, as long as Cotter Pyke was still at Eastwatch. But once Selyse left Eastwatch (not making any friends there) and Cotter Pyke left for Hardhome, he put a friend of Slynt in command - Ser Glendon Hewett who kicked Jon in the ribs when he was thrown into the cell. Then the news reached the NW that Cotter Pyke was trapped at Hardhome, and no doubt Ser Glendon Hewett feels secure that Cotter Pyke will never return, and thus can start up a plot again. After all, he was close to Alliser and Slynt.

The pomegranate has a chance to communicate with Glendon, when Jon has Bowen send reports of the gold and other posessions the wildlings gifted as a toll to pass through the Wall to Glendon.

The Pink Letter seals the deal: the men who feared Tywin's retaliation end up hearing that Stannis has died (allegedly), and so they enact what Slynt and Alliser plotted from the get go, before Stannis' arrival. It's got nothing to do with anger over letting wildlings through, or them regarding Jon as breaking his vows. They killed a man, so they can kneel and write to Cersei: we're loyal to Lannisters. They'd sell their own mother out of fear for the Lannisters. They're cowards. 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Slynt keeps alluding to having friends (in high places). That can only be Tywin.

For sure. Tywin had Pycelle send that letter to the NW with His Grace sending his fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant Lord Janos, signaling that this is who the Lannisters wanted as Lord Commander. Tywin was going to use the Watch for his own purpose, whatever that might have been.

Then Slynt turned around and sent a letter to King's Landing informing on what's going on at the Watch .

Tyrion should really have trimmed his head instead of sending him to the Wall. Slynt was a bully and a corrupt one at that who thought he was still in King's Landing and that it was business as usual.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Anything and everything Janos Slynt has ever committed against the laws were forgiven on the day he took his vows for the Night's Watch.  He was clean and forgiven of all his crimes.  The later offense of disrespect does not justify his execution.  Jon Snow was being a hypocrite.  Jon himself is guilty of the crime of desertion. That same jerk chose to judge a man he did not like harshly, kills him,  and then forgives a deserter like Mance Rayder.  Jon was indeed proven an incompetent commander because he failed to uphold standards and acted with prejudice against another brother of the watch.

I'm not saying Janos Slynt was a good man.  He was not that.  But neither is Mance Rayder, whom Jon allowed "to walk" even though the turncoat broke every rule.  Everybody deserves to be judged fairly and consistent with how other offenders are judged.  Janos and Mance are members of the watch and should be judged the same.  Justice failed in this case because Jon Snow was not an impartial judge.  A trial should have been held at the very least.  Jon acted on his feelings. That was not justice, it was murder committed by Jon Snow against a man who was his father's enemy before that man joined the watch. 

Edited by The Lord of the Crossing

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6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For sure. Tywin had Pycelle send that letter to the NW with His Grace sending his fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant Lord Janos, signaling that this is who the Lannisters wanted as Lord Commander. Tywin was going to use the Watch for his own purpose, whatever that might have been.

Then Slynt turned around and sent a letter to King's Landing informing on what's going on at the Watch .

Tyrion should really have trimmed his head instead of sending him to the Wall. Slynt was a bully and a corrupt one at that who thought he was still in King's Landing and that it was business as usual.

Agreed!

Still, in a Georgesque way Slynt ended up being served his due. He ended up losing his head by a Stark! YES!

In story the reason of his beheading is his complete disobedience to commit to a given order and command (given to him three times). But it just feels so damn good as reader that this bloated corrupt hypocrite who dared to prattle on about Ned lost his head by the hand of Stark. It feels even better, that it was not done out of revenge, that Slynt had chance after chance to think well and good about the possible consequences of refusing a given order.

Edited by sweetsunray

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17 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon was wrong to kill Janos Slynt

Wrong how? Morally? Legally? 

17 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon's application of justice was flawed, biased, and inconsistent.  Justice was not served.  Jon allowed the worst criminal in the north off the hook, Mance Rayder

Mance was after Janos so if your stance is that he should have killed Mance - fine, that's a different discussion but your argument cannot be that he shouldn't have killed Janos because he didn't kill Mance because he killed Janos before he didn't kill Mance. 

Furthermore if your argument is that he should have killed Mance for deserting, an offence punishable by death, then why would he be in the wrong for killing Janos for disobeying (several times) a direct order from his Lord Commander, an offence that is punishable by death? 

It seems to me that whether Jon killed Janos or not, killed Mance or not, that by your logic he would have been wrong either way, merely for being a Stark. 

17 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

That was incompetent judgement when you consider what he did to Slynt over something minor.  Mance Rayder is a deserter and an oathbreaker who deserved to get his head removed. 

Minor according to who? Certainly not minor to Jon or the laws of the NW. Not minor to me. Maybe minor to you. 

 

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8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Anything and everything Janos Slynt has ever committed against the laws were forgiven on the day he took his vows for the Night's Watch

Janos wasn't executed for anything he did prior to coming to the NW. In fact, it is Janos himself, who continuously brings up his life & "high ranking" before he was sent to the wall. 

8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The later offense of disrespect does not justify his execution

He was not executed for disrespect. 

8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon Snow was being a hypocrite.  Jon himself is guilty of the crime of desertion

:rolleyes: Come now. At least try. Even if the entire NW thinks that (they don't) we, the readers, know he isn't because we READ the exchange between Jon & Qhorin. 

Even if this were true it wouldn't make him a hypocrite for executing Janos - he didn't desert. It would make him a hypocrite for executing Mance! The one you are saying he should have executed. 

8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

That same jerk chose to judge a man he did not like harshly, kills him,  and then forgives a deserter like Mance Rayder.

So is your issue that he didn't kill Mance or that he did kill Janos? Because to have issue with both seems quite at odds with each other to me. 

Also, he gives Janos chance after chance after chance, against his better judgement of the man because he is self aware enough to understand he doesn't like him & cannot, as LC, judge him based on that. Janos got many more chances than any other person in the NW would have gotten. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not totally understanding what you are saying here. 

Ok, 

Quote

Tell me why you spared her."

It was hard to put into words. "My father never used a headsman. He said he owed it to men he killed to look into their eyes and hear their last words. And when I looked into Ygritte's eyes, I . . . " Jon stared down at his hands helplessly. "I know she was an enemy, but there was no evil in her."

"No more than in the other two."

"It was their lives or ours Jon said. "If they had seen us, if they had sounded that horn . . . "

"The wildlings would hunt us down and slay us, true enough."

"Stonesnake has the horn now, though, and we took Ygritte's knife and axe. She's behind us, afoot, unarmed . . . "

"And not like to be a threat," Qhorin agreed.

So I assume thats why this was this tradition of decapitation, true justice, and not about getting a hard on like Sandor or the Ned. 

Ygrittes death would have been useless, just like that nw dude from the prologue, while Karstark was monumental. So, what of Slynt? 

So I think me you and Halfhand would all agree, Janos was a threat

Quote

He absolutely saw the threat of mutiny. It was one of the reasons he wanted to send Janos to Greyguard to begin with. To remove him from Alliser Thorne so they didn't cause ruckus together.

Word. However the fact remains Snow did have a mutiny and is now laying down dead in the snow.

So what incidents should have been corrected to stop the ides of Marsh? Perhaps its all about defending the people on both sides of the wall or actually defending both sides of the wall. However Marsh as the lead conspirator makes as much sense to me as Wick.

Janos did lead a conspiracy, and was then given 24 hours to pack his bags and tie some nots on his schemes. Its easy to dismiss his "many friends" because we hardly see them, but I stress, Janos' voting base was large and predominantly CB folk.

Quote

I think maybe you should re-read that chapter. Jon is cool, calm, & collected. It is Janos who is overly emotional. 

Jons cool as snow, sure. But he misplays his hand. When he arrests Janos he is hoping Ser Alliser draws steel. So seemingly the plan was to kill Alliser and banish Janos, not the other way around.

Quote

After Janos repeatedly refused Jon's order he either had to behead the man or step down as LC because no one would follow him if Janos was allowed to get away with such insubordination. 

Janos wild out, sure. But, who doesn't? Jon tried to run away, the Old Bear seemed upset at Neds nw justice and like 90% of em go to Moles Town. Jons their commander sure, but not their king.

Quote

Jon wasn't acting as King? He knew very well his place & his rights. He also wasn't getting too powerful.

So, hes not king. Im not sure how real the story of the nights king is, but the story remains. The LC was murdered by his men and business as usual followed. Theres precedence here, in contrast Jaime had to be pardoned and will be known as kingslayer for the rest of time.

Quote

Popularity or no it was very smart. In fact it was the only thing he could do & remain LC & respected by his men. It would have been total chaos otherwise. 

Like how much chaos? If Janos is chilling in the ice box like a bottle of gin, whos gonna wanna follow suit? There are other deterrents then murder.

Or chaos like, Jons a warg who stole the election, all hail Slynt? I could see that more, but the thing about wargs is, they keep their wolf close (not Robb... :( ) Jon didnt because he let the wildling boar in, but that was later. Plus that Wun Wun business was very distracting. 

It was a delicate affair, but considering the long term consequences I have to say Jon was unwise

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

So I assume thats why this was this tradition of decapitation, true justice, and not about getting a hard on like Sandor or the Ned

Ahh! I gotcha. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ygrittes death would have been useless, just like that nw dude from the prologue, while Karstark was monumental. So, what of Slynt? 

So I think me you and Halfhand would all agree, Janos was a threat

Agreed. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. However the fact remains Snow did have a mutiny and is now laying down dead in the snow

Absolutely.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

So what incidents should have been corrected to stop the ides of Marsh? Perhaps its all about defending the people on both sides of the wall or actually defending both sides of the wall. However Marsh as the lead conspirator makes as much sense to me as Wick

I'm not sure what could have been done to stop it. Maybe if Jon had explained some of his decisions better? I agree about Marsh. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Janos did lead a conspiracy, and was then given 24 hours to pack his bags and tie some nots on his schemes. Its easy to dismiss his "many friends" because we hardly see them, but I stress, Janos' voting base was large and predominantly CB folk.

Sure. Undoubtedly Janos friends were involved in the mutiny plot. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jons cool as snow, sure. But he misplays his hand. When he arrests Janos he is hoping Ser Alliser draws steel. So seemingly the plan was to kill Alliser and banish Janos, not the other way around

I disagree & here's why: We are in Jon's POV when he lops the top off of the pomegranate & he doesn't really think much about Alliser other than in regards to getting him away from Janos. He perceives (I think rightfully so) Janos to be the leader or main threat. I think if he had plans to kill Alliser he would have thought of them surely? 

Alliser puts his hand on his sword when Jon arrests Janos & then doesn't draw it. Jon's thought process in response to that is "I wish you would" more like yeah, give me an excuse to cross swords with you because I'll tear you apart. Not a "oh yes my main plan to kill Alliser is coming to fruition" if that makes sense? 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Janos wild out, sure. But, who doesn't? Jon tried to run away, the Old Bear seemed upset at Neds nw justice and like 90% of em go to Moles Town. Jons their commander sure, but not their king

Right but Janos's crime is not going to Mole's town or attempting to run away. Jon ignores Janos's repeated disrespect & insults, calling him boy & bastard & what not. Can you imagine the Old Bear standing for that? Maybe Jon should have punished him for that alone, not beheaded him for it, but maybe the ice cells or something. Jon is their Commander & has commanded Janos to take control of another castle that needs manned on the wall. I think he is well within his rights as Lord Commander to punish insubordination. The man was given a direct order, multiple times, & multiple times refused it. He was given a night to change his mind & told repeatedly he must go. I just don't see what choice Jon had but to execute the man. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

, hes not king. Im not sure how real the story of the nights king is, but the story remains. The LC was murdered by his men and business as usual followed. Theres precedence here, in contrast Jaime had to be pardoned and will be known as kingslayer for the rest of time

Yeah I've often wondered if there is any rules in place or structure to follow if the NW seems the LC unworthy of their post. Like can they be voted out? Apparently not, they get killed. Possibly business will follow as usual on the wall after Jon's murder but I don't think so because Jon still has support among the men of the NW. 

At any rate though I don't think not beheading Janos would have kept the mutiny at bay, I think the mutiny would have just come sooner. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

how much chaos? If Janos is chilling in the ice box like a bottle of gin, whos gonna wanna follow suit? There are other deterrents then murder

I'll look for the quote & post it here in a few but Jon does consider the Ice cells & discards it because he thinks it will be worse (I can't remember why but I'll find the quote) 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

chaos like, Jons a warg who stole the election, all hail Slynt? I could see that more, but the thing about wargs is, they keep their wolf close (not Robb... :( ) Jon didnt because he let the wildling boar in, but that was later. Plus that Wun Wun business was very distracting.

I think it would have had a multi-layered affect. First it would have led Janos to believe Jon is weak & will not punish him no matter his offence (he actually says basically this to Jon when Jon stops the hanging & Janos thinks he isn't going to be executed) Secondly it allows any other potential insubordinates think they don't have to listen either. It gives Janos more "pull" among those listening to him, which is a bad thing all around. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

was a delicate affair, but considering the long term consequences I have to say Jon was unwise

Definitely delicate & while I disagree that it was unwise, I respect your opinion. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shiveringand feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

Here is the quote. Jon considers putting him in an ice cell but discards that idea because he knows as soon as Janos is out he will begin to plot with Thorne again. 

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Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shiveringand feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

Here is the quote. Jon considers putting him in an ice cell but discards that idea because he knows as soon as Janos is out he will begin to plot with Thorne again. 

It does not read that way to me.  It looks like Jon knew the proper punishment for acts of this type:  a few days in a prison cell.  But then he talks himself out of that in favor of execution because he wanted to kill Slynt.  Revenge was Jon's motive. 

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GRRM is showing us in many ways that "the King's Justice" is subject to interpretation and whim - there is no single standard that clearly guides Lords (or Lord Commanders) in deciding whether to be merciful or to inflict the death penalty.

As for Jon's treatment of Mance and whether he should have killed him, one might argue two relevant points:

1) The army of Stannis arrived at a key moment when Jon would have been forced to make a decision about killing Mance. The decision was taken from Jon at that moment, although he may have had subsequent opportunities. Jon was trying to co-exist with Stannis and Mance became a prisoner of Stannis, so Jon may have felt he did not have full power to kill Mance even after he became Lord Commander.

2) Jon did kill "Mance." When Melisandre staged the dramatic burning of "Mance" in a cage, Jon ordered NW archers to end the suffering of the caged man by shooting him with arrows. Only later did Jon discover the burning man was not Mance but actually Rattleshirt.

As I say, though, I don't think GRRM wants us to wonder at Jon's apparent inconsistency in meting out justice for desertion or insubordination. Jon was "raised" by both Ned Stark and Jeor Mormont (and possibly Donal Noye, Qhorin Halfhand, Maester Aemon and Alliser Thorne). Jon has had a variety of lessons on pragmatism, justice and punishment from the range of people who have educated him. He will draw on different lessons at different times in his arc.

There are some important details that can help us to understand why Slynt's fate played out the way it did.

1) Janos Slynt is the son of a butcher. There is an ongoing theme of butcher kings in the books but the other major player who was the son of a butcher was Arya's friend Mycah, who was slaughtered by The Hound at the Red Fork. Slynt and the Hound are both promoted to Joffrey's inner circle on the same day, with Slynt showing open approval for the dismissal of Ser Barristan, the opening that allows the Hound to join the King's Guard. I think we are seeing aspects of Joffrey represented in the changes to the small council. Slynt may represent the overall awfulness of Joffrey as a king and a human being. The fact that Slynt is granted the strategic, unique and (apparently) cursed seat of Harrenhal may embody the type of king that Joffrey will be. Jon beheading Slynt may show that Joffrey's reign has come to an end.

Does the parallel to Mycah foreshadow that Slynt will eventually be butchered? I don't think it's that simple or straightforward. He is definitely linked to the execution of children, overseeing the killing of Robert's bastards. Most readers feel Mycah was an innocent boy who was slaughtered. As a symbol, though, he might represent a future butcher who was stopped before he could get started in his likely profession - the link between Mycah and Slynt is that they are both butchers. Slynt represents what Mycah would have been if he had grown up.

2) Slynt tells Tyrion that Allar Deem is "my right arm." Deem is the man who killed the infant Barra and her mother in the brothel, following Cersei's orders. When he sends Slynt and his henchmen to the Night's Watch, Tyrion recommends to Jacelyn Bywater that Allar Deem be "swept overboard" at some point on the voyage north - a convenient excuse for executing a man who killed a baby. But Slynt's characterization of Allar Deem as his right arm opens up a Jaime comparison: Tyrion has ordered the cutting off of Slynt's right arm. So this brings us back to the butcher imagery again.

The maiming of Jaime was followed by the slow torture and execution of Vargo Hoat by Ser Gregor. Hoat was forced to eat his own flesh as his limbs were severed one at a time. Very much a butcher situation. Vargo Hoat is not a sympathetic character, but his death is one of the worst in the books (and that's saying a lot). Are we supposed to sympathize with him a little bit? Are we supposed to sympathize with Janos Slynt a little bit?

When one butcher king falls in ASOIAF, another rises up. (Sometimes the same one rises up, as with King Cleon.) I think Ramsay is also a butcher king and he has probably left fArya / Jeyne Pool pregnant with the son of a butcher, setting up the next cycle.

Edited by Seams

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9 minutes ago, Big P said:

It does not read that way to me.  It looks like Jon knew the proper punishment for acts of this type:  a few days in a prison cell.  But then he talks himself out of that in favor of execution because he wanted to kill Slynt.  Revenge was Jon's motive. 

Ok, but where are the clues or text that he wanted to kill Slynt for revenge? 

Obviously, it read the way I stated it to me but we all have our own opinions. I'm taking the passage at face value & assuming what the author & Jon are telling us is exactly what they say. If you are taking something different from that passage what led you to that assumption? 

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45 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Furthermore if your argument is that he should have killed Mance for deserting, an offence punishable by death, then why would he be in the wrong for killing Janos for disobeying (several times) a direct order from his Lord Commander, an offence that is punishable by death? 

Jon's own thoughts make it very clear that executing Janos is, while not completely unheard of, a comparatively harsh judgment - especially if you also keep in mind that he wanted to hang him originally, which is basically a humiliating way of death unfit for nobility.

I mean, if you check the context then various people with the authority to condemn Jon to death for his own offenses (Mormont two times in AGoT, Slynt & Thorne when they have reason to think he is an oathbreaker, etc.) then Jon is really pushing things pretty far, especially if you consider his non-existing stance towards Mance or his soft approach Marsh and the other officers who constantly oppose his policies.

Another problem with this is that Jon clearly showed his preference to punish harshly such people who were not only opposing him but also were confirmed enemies of House Stark. He didn't act as an impartial judge in this whole issue. This is significant because he doesn't use the same standards when people he finds sympathetic commit crimes (like Mance, say).

Compare that to Dany at least trying to treat the Meereenese slaves and former slavers equally once she has taken over Meereen.

The idea that anyone was 'plotting' against Jon before he became Lord Commander is silly. He was a no-name bastard then, politically irrelevant, and suspected of treason for a very good reason. Aligning the Watch with the Lannisters is, in and of itself, no less unpleasant than aligning the Watch with Stannis, or to really plot and lie to make Jon Snow the Lord Commander, an office he never actually wanted.

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