Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Seams said: I can't take credit or blame for that theory. I don't think I've seen it. No blame, it was amazing. I realized right after I tagged you I wasn't thinking right but if you get the chance you should check it out. It's been debunked but it's still a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: I loved me some corn code. That was the golden age of this board. Yes! I enjoy the board of course but it was definitely the golden age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Yes! I enjoy the board of course but it was definitely the golden age It's not that the board today is bad, really. It's just that there used to be so many more posters and so many more points of view. Granted a lot of it was kind of wing nutty but a lot of it was also brilliant, and drew on a lot of diverse materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: And I'm older than all of you - except GRRM I'm also older than the rest of them but not older than GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: It's not that the board today is bad, really. It's just that there used to be so many more posters and so many more points of view. Granted a lot of it was kind of wing nutty but a lot of it was also brilliant, and drew on a lot of diverse materials. Yeah for sure. Maybe if we ever get some tWoW it'll get back to something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySage Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: It's not that the board today is bad, really. It's just that there used to be so many more posters and so many more points of view. Granted a lot of it was kind of wing nutty but a lot of it was also brilliant, and drew on a lot of diverse materials. The banter between lml and voice back in the day was classic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 19 hours ago, Melifeather said: I am older than you, (turned 57 yesterday) but I've never even heard of the corn code. I guess I missed out, but I don't think I'm over analyzing - especially regarding Shadrich. There is a code, if you want to call it that. There is overwhelming evidence of a second, hidden story in every titled chapter. To quote some others, I, "...don't even consider it a theory anymore". I'm sure I've erred on a number of interpretations, but I know that I am not wrong about it's existence. Happy belated birthday! At least Some of you all are older than me here. Since everyone is admitting it, I might as well go next. I’m 44. Turn 45 next month. It’s a bitch getting older. I only got here right around or after the Corn Code. I remember it being discussed, but it was pretty much debunked by then. And I do agree with you that there is some sort of hidden story somewhere. There’s just entirely too many time loops. But that’s in the entire works including D&E. And none of them ever work out exactly the same. I think that might be because of the different choices that people make. I’m starting to think more and more that those titled chapters are more indicative of a shift in that character’s perspective. Like how Theon switched to Reek and it successfully hid that Bran and Rickon were still alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: It's not that the board today is bad, really. It's just that there used to be so many more posters and so many more points of view. Granted a lot of it was kind of wing nutty but a lot of it was also brilliant, and drew on a lot of diverse materials. Definitely. I still wonder what happened to Mithras. That was some of the best work I’ve seen. Plus there was another guy that I recruited to TLH that had a couple of really good ideas with theories about Robb warging Cat at his death and about Drogo possibly being a “hidden Targaryen.” I wish I could remember his name. I really enjoyed a lot of LML’s early work on deciphering the World Book. It made a lot of sense. He seems to have done away with that though. I can’t find it on his blog anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 14 hours ago, LadySage said: The banter between lml and voice back in the day was classic... I actually really enjoyed it. They challenged each other to look at things differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 And speaking of Voice, his miasma theory was awesome work. I think that he was really getting close to something there. I agreed with him on a lot of it. Just had a couple of my own ideas to add to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said: And speaking of Voice, his miasma theory was awesome work. I think that he was really getting close to something there. I agreed with him on a lot of it. Just had a couple of my own ideas to add to it. I always found LML to be very charming whenever we had conversation. His podcast was also entertaining. I don't quite remember Voices miasma theory but I think it may have been tied into his theory of what Bran saw north and north and north, in the heart of winter. IIRC he thought there was a undead Dothraki army waiting to be unleashed. I don't know if he still thinks that way; we all change our minds. For my part, I've come to think that Bran didn't see anything in the high north, beyond the curtain of light, beyond the dreamers whose bones are impaled on spears of ice. I think what he saw was something incorporeal, something that can only be seen by the thrid eye; the heart of winter and soul of ice; he looked into the mind, the soul and heart, of the one whose name must not be spoken. Sansa repeats the north and north and north phrase (only used twice by (GRRM). In this way, Martin has connected what Bran saw with Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySage Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 15 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: Definitely. I still wonder what happened to Mithras. That was some of the best work I’ve seen. Plus there was another guy that I recruited to TLH that had a couple of really good ideas with theories about Robb warging Cat at his death and about Drogo possibly being a “hidden Targaryen.” I wish I could remember his name. I really enjoyed a lot of LML’s early work on deciphering the World Book. It made a lot of sense. He seems to have done away with that though. I can’t find it on his blog anymore. Yes, I recall the "Drogo's a Hidden Targ" poster. Their username will come to me, eventually... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 @LynnS, I wanted to circle back to your original post on green dreams before this heresy concludes. On 11/21/2019 at 6:01 AM, LynnS said: It might be useful to look at the elements of Ned's dream as separate dreams that become conflated or connected to what I consider to be the oldest of Ned's dreams. You can argue that his dreams of Lyanna (which are not always connected to the ToJ) and his dream of the Kingsguard are also old dreams and that's true. But they are actual memories whereas the dream of the blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death is not a memory but something more akin to a green dream. It has the same flavor as Jojen's dream of the sea coming to Winterfell. Ned's dream is also a warning of things to come, a vision of ice and fire; the red comet, dragons and wights. I agree that there are several aspects of Ned's toj fever dream that seem more like a green dream than a dream of a memory. The blood streaked sky is one of them, although I think this can be interpreted quite literally as the color of the sky at sunset or sunrise, especially if there is smoke or haze in the air. The other is the association of the rose petal's to eyes blue as death. Death hangs heavy over this dream, possibly in Lyanna's death, possibly in the death of Eddard's companions, and possibly the deaths of the three Kingsguard. Another part of this dream that stands out to me as feeling quite symbolic, perhaps part of a green dream, is Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn with the "alive with light" imagery. We have some instances in the text where Dawn is described as a special metal, or that it's quite whitish in color, incredibly sharp, but no one but Ned, in this dream, ever describes is as shimmering or reflecting light in any way. In this dream, Dawn is mentioned twice. The first time by it's hilt poking over SAD's shoulder, and the second time, in conjunction with the blood-streaked sky and the blue eyes of death. So, in this instance, toward the end of Ned's dream, I think Dawn being "alive with light" is another aspect of a green dream. We don't know what happened at the toj, although we all speculate and guess, based on the little that we know. This dream of Ned's leads us to much of our interpretation, but as GRRM has cautioned us, this is a fever dream. Early in the dream we get the phrase "as it was in life" twice, but towards the end of the dream, we get the more dream-like imagery. I have been thinking of that "alive with light" in conjunction with green-dreams, and it reminds me of Jaime's weirwood stump dream and his sword association in the dream. Quote "I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said. It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . . From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. "I swore to keep you safe," the wench said stubbornly. "I swore an oath." Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. "Ser. Please. If you would be so good." The steel links parted like silk. "A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more. "The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you." ASOS-Jaime VI I think it can be argued that you don't need to be a greenseer to have a green dream. Jojen has green dreams but claims he is not a greenseer. Quite a lot of Jaime's weirwood stump dream seems like a green dream, although there are hints of real memories in it, and I don't think Jaime is a greenseer. So in this way, I think it's quite possible that Ned was given greendreams while perhaps not being a greenseer. Ned's dream has a sword that is "alive with light" and Jaime's dream has a sword that burns with a silvery-blue flame, but he is told that when the flame goes out, it will be the end of his life. So, a sword that is "alive with light" and a sword that indicates death when the light burns out. We don't know the color that Ned see's SAD's Dawn in, but we have the phrase "alive with light" repeated in the color's Jon see's on the wall. In this case Jon see's the wall in blue and white, colors similar to Jaime's dream sword. Later Jon associates the colors red, yellow and orange with Stannis "Lightbringer" light show. I wish we had a better idea of the color's that Ned associated with the Dawn sword, but if part of Ned's dream is a green dream, then maybe we can connect it to the color of Jaime's dream sword, a dream that certainly has hints of a green dream/weirwood dream. On 11/21/2019 at 6:01 AM, LynnS said: There is a connection between Lyanna and Ned's dream of rose petals falling from her hand, at the moment of her death, and the storm of petals blue as the eyes of death. The symbolism flows one to the other. ... The imagery of roses has wide interpretation. What strikes me is that Rhaegar didn''t place the crown on Lyanna's head instead placing it in her lap. All the smiles dies. It's Ned who sees Lyanna's wearing the queen of beauty's laurel on her statue in the crypt. ETA: I had to post before I completed this section, so I am trying to finish my thoughts. Sorry. I think it is Theon who dreams of Lyanna wearing a crown of roses in the crypts and being spattered with gore. In Ned's memories, he associates the rose crown as being being on Lyanna's lap. In his dream/memories in the Black Cell's, it associates Lyanna with a garland of roses and her eyes weeping blood. I have argued before that while a garland can be a crown, it can also be a chain of flowers, either worn as a shawl over her shoulders, or draped like a swag or festoon from her hands. This certainly has some saint like imagery. I think this is GRRM's very crafty way of showing us that Ned never associates Lyanna with wearing Rhaegar's gift crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, St Daga said: Ned's dream has a sword that is "alive with light" and Jaime's dream has a sword that burns with a silvery-blue flame, but he is told that when the flame goes out, it will be the end of his life. So, a sword that is "alive with light" and a sword that indicates death when the light burns out. We don't know the color that Ned see's SAD's Dawn in, but we have the phrase "alive with light" repeated in the color's Jon see's on the wall. Yes, just so. The other thing that strikes me about Jaime's dream is the line of ancestors back to Lann the Clever. Also reminiscent of Dany's dream of the line of kings holding a shinging sword. The other curious thing about Jaime's dream is that is it occupied with wraiths with the exception of Brienne. Jaime sees Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey among the dead before the have died. But he doesn't see Tommen or Myrcella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Retreading again, but while we know the fever dream was not literal, it seems a huge leap to assume the difference is key to the story. What if green dreams are not real. What if this is just BR sending Jojen visions to manipulate him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 19, 2019 Author Share Posted December 19, 2019 11 hours ago, Brad Stark said: Retreading again, but while we know the fever dream was not literal, it seems a huge leap to assume the difference is key to the story. What if green dreams are not real. What if this is just BR sending Jojen visions to manipulate him? I think that's the point. Greenseers can see things and communicate through dreams. Green dreams are what happens at the other end when they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 On 12/18/2019 at 9:12 AM, LynnS said: Yes, just so. The other thing that strikes me about Jaime's dream is the line of ancestors back to Lann the Clever. Also reminiscent of Dany's dream of the line of kings holding a shinging sword. The other curious thing about Jaime's dream is that is it occupied with wraiths with the exception of Brienne. Jaime sees Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey among the dead before the have died. But he doesn't see Tommen or Myrcella. I always interpreted that Cersei was alive based on Jaime's dream, since she had a torch and it was still burning when she walked away. As to Tommen and Myrcella, I guess I don't know either way, since they are not in the dream, with a light or without a light. Tyrion is not in the dream, either. Another thing that sticks out to me about Jaime's dream is it opens with cowled figures in dark robes that hold spears and prod Jaime deeper down than he want's to go, and I think this is a nod to the Night's Watch. The first time we get a dark or black figure in a cowled robe is when Yoren meets Ned in the Hand's Tower. The Night's Watch are noted for their black capes with hoods, and their long spears. Jon even has his men lined up with hoods up over their heads to disguise how old or young they are from the wildlings. In Jaime's dream, who is hiding behind those dark cowls? I think this could be a hint that Jaime's fate lies with the Night's Watch and that Jaime might not be very willing. Could that mean Brienne's fate is also tied to the Night's Watch? She get's pushed into the same pit as him. As to the idea of wraith's in Jaime's dream, no figure is ever described in such a way, but the white cloaks and Rhaegar are described very much like wraiths. White wraith's, as opposed to Eddard's grey wraiths. I think all of these connections hint at green dreams, but sent by who is the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 20 hours ago, Black Crow said: I think that's the point. Greenseers can see things and communicate through dreams. Green dreams are what happens at the other end when they do. My point is Jojen may not be special, or at least not for the reason he thinks. Everything he dreamt was just Bloodraven manipulating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 20, 2019 Author Share Posted December 20, 2019 6 hours ago, Brad Stark said: My point is Jojen may not be special, or at least not for the reason he thinks. Everything he dreamt was just Bloodraven manipulating him. Wouldn't necessarily go that far. There may be something in his blood which makes him receptive to dreams which don't necessarily refer to him directly. Jaime doesn't "do" greendreams but received one while he was resting his head on a weirwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 @St Daga I only have a couple minutes, so just wanted to get out a couple things that struck me when I read through your comments. It never really dawned on me that Jaime was taking the sword out of the water. It just seems to have a lot of Lady of the Lake imagery surrounding it. Is he the new Ser Arthur Dayne? And what might that mean for Arthur and Ashara? Never much thought of incest there. But it is hinted at in two places in the present day story. Both between Theon and Asha, and the Cersei and Jaime themselves. Interestingly enough of those two one is fake and one is real. My only other thought was regarding the figures in black robes. Is this more likely indicative of the NW or just symbolic of death itself? Most of the time we see death pictures visually it is as a hooded figure cloaked in black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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