ASoIaF and LotR parallels

[Aldarion]

* In A Song of Ice and Fire, we have Samwell Tarly. House Tarly is vassal of House Tyrell, who used to be vassals of House Gardener. In Lord of the Rings, Samwise Gamgree is a gardener.

* Palantirs from Lord of the Rings seem to have parallel in dragonglass candles. Both can be used to see visions and also communicate across significant distances.

* Valyrian Freehold and Numenor are both based on the legend of Atlantis; but while Numenor is a more direct "ripoff", Valyria is a pennisula (oversized Peleponnese), not an island. Arnor and Gondor were founded by exiles from Numenor, while Seven Kingdoms were founded by Targaryens (exiles from Valyria). Valyria itself parallels Roman Empire, while in LotR Roman Empire is paralleled by Arnor (Western Roman Empire, but with influences also from Carolingian Empire) and Gondor (Eastern Roman Empire with influences from Holy Roman Empire).

* Wights from A Song of Ice and Fire may draw from the same inspirations (draugr and such) as barrow-wights from Lord of the Rings. EDIT: There may also be connection between swords found in wights' barrow and Stark tradition of burying dead with their weapons. Both seem to draw from actual medieval burial practices, where aristocracy was buried with their weapons.

[Narsil4]

• The 14 Flames and Valyria seem to parallel a destroyed Ring of Doom and Valimar in the Undying Lands.
• Weirwood and Shadewood seem to be corrupted/undead versions of the Two Trees that grew upon the Mound of Ever-summer.
• The Summer Isles seem to parallel a half sunken Numenor. 
• Swan Ships seem to be based on Vingilot.
• The Vale, Eyrie and Giant's Lance seem to parallel a conquered Mordor and Mt. Doom. 
• The Winged Knight riding a huge falcon may also suggest a connection to the Great Eagles.
• Euron seems to parallel the Corsairs of Umbar.
• Firewyrms may be Were-worms.
• Dany as the Mother of Dragons seems to have a connection to Glaurung the Father of Dragons.
• Greywater Watch and Lonely Light seem to have parallels to Tol Eressea.
• Blackstone may have connections to the Stone of Erech.
• Braavos seems to have a few parallels to Gondolin.

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, Narsil4 said:

Euron seems to parallel the Corsairs of Umbar.

 

Euron however also dabbles in magic, has possibly connection to the Others, and has only one eye. So... Sauron?

[Narsil4]

4 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Euron however also dabbles in magic, has possibly connection to the Others, and has only one eye. So... Sauron?

Eurons sigil seems to be the opposite of the Sauron influenced corsairs. 

Quote

The corsairs were recognizable by their red sails, adorned with a black star or eye.

Sauron might be considered a God of Flame and Shadow similar to R'hllor. 

So the Great Other and Euron might be considered the opposition to Sauron/R'hllor. 

[Back door hodor]

Palatirs and glass candles seem a pretty direct comparison, beyond that, I'm not so sure(without stating the obvious, any fantasy that came after the professor, was without a doubt influenced by him, even if only subconsciously,Tolkien is the Beatles of fantasy.)

The biggest difference I see, is that in Tolkiens legedarium, gods and "magic" ( in quotes for a reason, Tolkiens magic is not Harry Potter magic.) are unquestionably real, in Asoiaf, such things are very ambiguous and left to reader interpretation.

I personally see no Sauron or Morgoth analogue in ASOIAF, and in my opinion none of the major religious deities on Plaetos are a fair comparison to either The Valar or Eru Illuvatar.

Looking at the non divine characters, I see a few more parallels, but not that many honestly. I see no Frodo or Sam( the real hero) analogue in Song for example.

I think Martin intentionally and purposefully tried to differentiate himself from Tolkien's world.

[Aldarion]

9 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

Eurons sigil seems to be the opposite of the Sauron influenced corsairs. 

Sauron might be considered a God of Flame and Shadow similar to R'hllor. 

So the Great Other and Euron might be considered the opposition to Sauron/R'hllor. 

Sauron is actually the Lord of Darkness, 

@Back door hodor It is true that Martin tried to differentiate himself from Tolkien, but even differentiation may lead to parallels. You can e.g. look at both Young Griff and Jon Snow as Aragorn archetypes, an exiled king returning to reclaim the throne. Yet Jon Snow has died (but may be resurrected) while Young Griff is likely to die without getting resurrected.

[Narsil4]

6 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Sauron is actually the Lord of Darkness, 

Fire may not always be bright..

Quote

The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow!

If Gandalf was around, he might even be on the side of the Others.

Quote

Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white.

Quote

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

Glamdring glittered white in answer.

 

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, Narsil4 said:

Fire may not always be bright..

If Gandalf was around, he might even be on the side of the Others.

 

Forget about aesthetics and look at substance. First, "dark fire" does not necessarily mean that fire itself is not bright, but may also indicate that fire has evil properties. As for "cold and white" light of Glamdring and Gandalf, Elves and Gandalf himself are associated with the moon and the stars (as is Numenor), and light of those is indeed cold and white; it has nothing to do with winter or cold as is presented in A Song of Ice and Fire.

EDIT:

6 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Looking at the non divine characters, I see a few more parallels, but not that many honestly. I see no Frodo or Sam( the real hero) analogue in Song for example.

 

I would say that Samwell Tarly is Sam analogue. Though obviously there will be differences. And to repeat myself from a previous post you may have missed, it is true that Martin tried to differentiate himself from Tolkien, but even differentiation may lead to parallels. You can e.g. look at both Young Griff and Jon Snow as Aragorn archetypes, an exiled king returning to reclaim the throne. Yet Jon Snow has died (but may be resurrected) while Young Griff is likely to die without getting resurrected. Jon Snow may have a lot in common with Frodo.

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/20/2019 at 10:25 PM, Aldarion said:

*

LOL. You ninjed me. I was thinking on making the same thread.

I was thinking the other day on the Shy Maid and her eight person crew going down the Royne (Tyrion, Griff, Young Griff, Lemore, Duck, Haldon, Yandri and Ysilla). It reminded me of the 8 person crew going down the Anduin (Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin).

The respective teams have a "wizard" as a mastermind: Gandalf and Varys

The respective teams have a claimant: Aragorn and Young-Griff/Aegon VI. 

The respective teams have someone doing the real search. Frodo and Tyrion.

Both Frodo and Aragorn found refugee in Elrond's manse. Tyrion and Aegon VI also found refugee in Illyrio's manse. Illyrio is then a Elrond's spinoff

The widow of the waterfront is a Galadriel's spinoff

The parallels don't end there. Both Anduin and Royne are big rivers going in the North-South directions and divide the Middle Earth and Essos respectively.

Braavos are kind of Grey Havens. Specially if you consider that Valyria is a Mordor's spinoff. Qohor is then Erebor here, where the most skilled smiths can still be found. The Mirkwood is then the Qohor forest.

I will think on more parallels

[Lord Varys]

Euron and his sigil are nods to Sauron himself, not to the Corsairs. The Ironborn even got a priest who is named Sauron.

For what it's worth I don't think Gondor has much in common with the Byzantine empire - there are more similarities to Egypt, considering both the monuments of the Dúnedain as well as them worshipping and embalming their ancestors.

And about Arnor's culture we basically know nothing in detail about. Sure, the kingdom splitting up sort of evokes the HRE, but unlike that Dúnedain kingdoms always were and remained hereditary monarchies.

After George I can Aragorn only see as a caricature of Daenerys - there is no other character who is so obsessed with his own heritage and bloodline, with essentially most of his memorable lines going on about his ancestors and how that gives him special rights - rights that even trump the powers of angels incarnate (in the case of Aragorn having more right to use the palantír than Gandalf).

[Aldarion]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

After George I can Aragorn only see as a caricature of Daenerys - there is no other character who is so obsessed with his own heritage and bloodline, with essentially most of his memorable lines going on about his ancestors and how that gives him special rights - rights that even trump the powers of angels incarnate (in the case of Aragorn having more right to use the palantír than Gandalf).

If anything, Daenerys is a carricature of Aragorn:
1) Aragorn is obsessed with his heritage because line of Numenorean kings continued unbroken from Elros Tar-Minyatur to Ar-Pharazon, while the line of Lords of Andunie / Kings of Arnor was unbroken from Elros Tar-Minyatur to Aragorn himself (and beyond). That is a dynasty which lasted 6 318 years (3 287 years in Numenor, 3 031 years in exile by the start of the Fourth Age). And Kingship of Dunedain is seen as a duty: not just political, but also cultural, historical (as caretakers of knowledge) and religious. Unlike Daenerys, which is obsessed because... dragons? For which we do not even know for sure that they are even Targaryen privilege... Aragorn has the whole weight of history and *duty* weighting down on him. It is a burden, but one which he has chosen to carry. Daenerys is obsessed with Iron Throne, which her family has established mere 300 years ago, creating the artificial construct of Seven Kingdoms in the process.
2) Aragorn is a king in the exile, and so is Daenerys. Both lead essentially kingdoms in exile, with Aragorn being a chieftain of Dunadains (who dwell in the Triangle, which may be understood as a sort-of-kingdom-in-exile) and Daenerys having her conquests.
3) Aragorn is 87 years old, experienced in leadership and was educated in kingship in Imladris, by Elrond - who, in addition to being several thousand years old, also spent most of that time ruling one Elven kingdom or another (yes, Imladris is a kingdom). Daenerys is a newbie who pulls one trick out of hat after another.
4) Aragorn never trumps "powers of Angels incarnate". Palantiri were a gift from Valar to the house of Andunie - which means to Aragorn. Aragorn has legal right of usage of Palantiri through his heritage. Daenerys gets dragon eggs as a gift from Illyrio, and resurrects dragons through magic I am not sure she believed will work. Basically, Aragorn triumphed through legalese, Daenerys just lucked out.

But I think that Aegon is much closer to being a carricature of Aragorn, as was already pointed out in the thread:
1) Aragorn was educated in kingship by Elrond. In fact, Elrond raised him - under false name of Estel - after Aragorn's father was killed by the orcs. Aegon was educated in kingship by Jon Connington, who also raised him under false name of Young Griff, after his father was killed by Robert.
2) Aragorn grew up in Imladris under care of Elrond. Aegon grew up first in Illyrio's manse and then on a poleboat.
3) Aragorn was told his real name when he was twenty years old. Aegon was told his origins much earlier - which I believe to be a mistake - but only started doing anything about it at age of eighteen.
4) Aragorn was sought out by servants of Sauron, but they were incapable of locating him because he was hidden by Elrond. Aegon was similarly hidden by Illyrio and Jon Connington.

Jon Snow however is an even closer parallel of Aragorn than Aegon is (even though names indicate otherwise):
1) While Jon is not educated in kingship per se, he was raised under a false identity by a great lord, and given proper education. Imladris in this case would be Winterfell, with Ned Stark taking Elrond's role.
2) As noted, Aragorn grew up in Imladris under care of Elrond, while Jon Snow grew up in Winterfell under care of Ned Stark.
3) Aragorn was only told his real name when he was twenty years old. Jon does not know his origins yet, but then he is not twenty years old either.
4) Much like Aragorn was hidden by Elrond under false name, so was Jon hidden by Ned Stark under a false name. He was not however sought out specifically, because nobody except Ned (and maybe few of his closest confidantes) knew about Jon.

So what we (may) have here is that Aegon is false!Aragorn, while Jon Snow is real!Aragorn. Aegon will attempt to claim the throne and fail; Jon Snow will attempt to claim the throne and succeed. And there will be more parallels / contrasts between the two than just that.

EDIT:

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For what it's worth I don't think Gondor has much in common with the Byzantine empire - there are more similarities to Egypt, considering both the monuments of the Dúnedain as well as them worshipping and embalming their ancestors.

 

In terms of culture, sure. But in terms of historical role, Gondor is much more similar to Byzantine Empire, being a shield of the (barbarized) West against new barbarian hordes of the East.

[Narsil4]

9 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Forget about aesthetics and look at substance.

It's not just aesthetics, it's also symbolism, that GRRM seems to have decided to parallel.

9 hours ago, Aldarion said:

First, "dark fire" does not necessarily mean that fire itself is not bright, but may also indicate that fire has evil properties.

Thats what I was getting at, though in GRRM's version, the associations are a lot more mixed and grey. 

9 hours ago, Aldarion said:

As for "cold and white" light of Glamdring and Gandalf, Elves and Gandalf himself are associated with the moon

R'hllor and the Great Other are most likely the 2 moons from the hatching myth. 
Also the Lion of Night and the Maiden-made-of-Light. 

9 hours ago, Aldarion said:

it has nothing to do with winter or cold as is presented in A Song of Ice and Fire.

It doesn't seem to be a coincidence that R'hllor and Melkor/Sauron are associated with dragons and Red Swords/Comets.

[Angel Eyes]

Faramir is a parallel of Tyrion. They are scholarly men and the second sons of a powerful, ambitious lord who rules over a dominion which is carved into a mountain. Their mothers died when they were very young, and their fathers never believe a good word about them, while their elder brother gets praise and glory heaped on him; said elder brother cares a lot for their younger brother. Each is also a character that is very close to the author's own personality.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

If anything, Daenerys is a carricature of Aragorn:
1) Aragorn is obsessed with his heritage because line of Numenorean kings continued unbroken from Elros Tar-Minyatur to Ar-Pharazon, while the line of Lords of Andunie / Kings of Arnor was unbroken from Elros Tar-Minyatur to Aragorn himself (and beyond). That is a dynasty which lasted 6 318 years (3 287 years in Numenor, 3 031 years in exile by the start of the Fourth Age). And Kingship of Dunedain is seen as a duty: not just political, but also cultural, historical (as caretakers of knowledge) and religious. Unlike Daenerys, which is obsessed because... dragons? For which we do not even know for sure that they are even Targaryen privilege... Aragorn has the whole weight of history and *duty* weighting down on him. It is a burden, but one which he has chosen to carry. Daenerys is obsessed with Iron Throne, which her family has established mere 300 years ago, creating the artificial construct of Seven Kingdoms in the process.

Aragorn has no development at all in the story. He just the hidden king lacking royal garments from the start (healing hands included which are a defining factor in English royal tradition) who has to go through the motions and help destroy the Ring so his foster father gives him the trophy wife he covets. He didn't have to go through Moria or deal with some Orcs in Rohan to be demand the throne of Gondor as his right.

And everything Aragorn talks about is his lineage and his fathers and his distant ancestors and how that makes him a great and important man. People do not defer to Aragorn the person, they defer to his family tree.

Daenerys occasionally talks about her ancestry, but people are not in awe of her family tree, they are in awe because of things she does (like hatching dragon eggs in a pyre and surviving).

Just think of the Argonath scene, the Gimli-palantír scene, the Aragorn introduction scene with the shards of Narsil, Aragorn revealing himself to Éomer, etc. and pretend for a moment it were Daenerys every time, going on about the Targaryen kings and - if you want a longer Aragorn-like bloodline - the Targaryen Lords of Dragonstone as well as the Targaryens among the Lords Freeholder of Valyria stretching back to the founding of the city about 5,000 years before ASoIaF.

And you don't have to tell us what you know about Tolkien. We have mostly read the stuff ourselves.

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

3) Aragorn is 87 years old, experienced in leadership and was educated in kingship in Imladris, by Elrond - who, in addition to being several thousand years old, also spent most of that time ruling one Elven kingdom or another (yes, Imladris is a kingdom). Daenerys is a newbie who pulls one trick out of hat after another.

As long as Elrond is called 'Lord Elrond' and not 'King Elrond' Imladris is no kingdom. Just as Lindon and Lórien are obviously no longer kingdoms since there kings are gone and the guys in charge there do no presume to be kings.

But that aside, there are, of course, also crucial differences between Dany and Aragorn.

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

4) Aragorn never trumps "powers of Angels incarnate". Palantiri were a gift from Valar to the house of Andunie - which means to Aragorn. Aragorn has legal right of usage of Palantiri through his heritage. Daenerys gets dragon eggs as a gift from Illyrio, and resurrects dragons through magic I am not sure she believed will work. Basically, Aragorn triumphed through legalese, Daenerys just lucked out.

Yes, and this concept that you can legally own something essentially forever that Tolkien offers there is ludicrous. Aragorn basically triumphs over Sauron in this palantír duel because he has the right family tree. Any scion of his house should have been able to do that.

All Aragorn's traits are due to his special bloodline and ancestry - his physical strength, endurance, longevity, intelligence, insight, healing powers.

The one thing he has which might be his own is his decision to not cling to life in the end - but that's, in a sense, also the behavior of an ideal Númenórean, so even that is something where Aragorn follows an example of the past rather than doing something he himself came up with.

How and why should the stones care to work only for their 'rightful owners'? And how is Saruman less of an owner of the Orthanc stone than Denethor is of the Anor stone? After all, didn't the Stewards legally inherit the guardianship of the kingdom of Gondor? And couldn't they thus transfer Isengard and Orthanc to whoever they chose?

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

But I think that Aegon is much closer to being a carricature of Aragorn, as was already pointed out in the thread:
1) Aragorn was educated in kingship by Elrond. In fact, Elrond raised him - under false name of Estel - after Aragorn's father was killed by the orcs. Aegon was educated in kingship by Jon Connington, who also raised him under false name of Young Griff, after his father was killed by Robert.
2) Aragorn grew up in Imladris under care of Elrond. Aegon grew up first in Illyrio's manse and then on a poleboat.
3) Aragorn was told his real name when he was twenty years old. Aegon was told his origins much earlier - which I believe to be a mistake - but only started doing anything about it at age of eighteen.
4) Aragorn was sought out by servants of Sauron, but they were incapable of locating him because he was hidden by Elrond. Aegon was similarly hidden by Illyrio and Jon Connington.

Yeah, but that is basically really the standard hidden prince motive. And the problem with Aragorn is more that LotR really isn't his story. He has long been told who he is and we don't know what he knew/suspected about himself back when he was still Estel or what he wanted to do before his foster father said he could only marry Arwen when he won a double crown.

George is not going to make Jon Snow into some Aragorn type guy - oh, people lied to me about who I am and now I shall be king because that's what my family tree says? Don't think that will happen.

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

In terms of culture, sure. But in terms of historical role, Gondor is much more similar to Byzantine Empire, being a shield of the (barbarized) West against new barbarian hordes of the East.

I guess that sort of works, but I'd actually say those are very superficial similarities.

But then, I also get a Númenórean vibe with the Tall Men (Sarnori) of the Sarne. They don't really look like Númenóreans and they also don't go to war like them, and the Númenóreans also didn't have bunch of city states, but I still get a sort of Gondor vs. Sauron's people vibe with their struggles with the Dothraki.

[Elegant Woes]

Daenerys is Galadriel with the one ring and some Denethor sprinkled on top (I am the Last Dragon line from Dany is eerily similar to him).

Arya and Sansa are the two sides of Eowyn. Arya feels restricted from social roles that are pushed on women and wants to feel freedom. Plus the fact that Nymeria is a witch queen might a cute nod towards that. Her learning to be an assassin hints she will have a big kill before the story ends. I am leaning towards Drogon or Daenerys. 

Sansa's infatuation with Joffrey is similar to what Eowyn felt towards Aragorn. She romanticized him instead of seeing him for who he truly is. Granted the situations were totally different, but still roughly similar. Plus Wormtongue creeping on Eowyn is very similar to the way Littlefinger creeps on Sansa. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if GRRM took inspiration from that. 

[Aldarion]

14 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

R'hllor and the Great Other are most likely the 2 moons from the hatching myth. 
Also the Lion of Night and the Maiden-made-of-Light. 

Actually, they are more likely based on Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu from Zoroastrianism. I have studied Zoroastrianism a bit for my own purposes, and between dualistic theology and focus on fire worship (so much so that when Heraclius put out the "forever fire" at the temple it was a major political and strategic coup), Zoroastrianism is almost definitely inspiration for the Red Religion. R'hllor would be Ahura Mazda, and Great Other would be Angra Mainyu.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And everything Aragorn talks about is his lineage and his fathers and his distant ancestors and how that makes him a great and important man. People do not defer to Aragorn the person, they defer to his family tree.

 

They defer to both. You are forgetting that Aragorn is also the commander of Dunedian Rangers, a chieftain of Dunedain (so an active prince, not just in theory), a tried-and-proven battle commander (he commanded military forces of Rohan when Theoden was still a child, and also led a raid on Umbar harbour which crippled naval pover of Umbar for years, if not decades, under guise of Thorongil), and has received extensive education under Elrond's tutelage - to the extent that he is clearly one of most educated and knowledgeable human characters in the books. He knows both theory and practice of leading men long before he sits on the throne, and is implied to have been a go-to guy whenever Gandalf needed help with affairs of Shire area for a long time before FotR.

The only person who can claim similar level of life experience in A Song of Ice and Fire is probably Lord Commander Mormont (when he was alive, anyway) and maybe some of the more ancient Lords (e.g. Hoster Tully.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 Daenerys occasionally talks about her ancestry, but people are not in awe of her family tree, they are in awe because of things she does (like hatching dragon eggs in a pyre and surviving).

RE: Aragorn, see above. And as I said, she basically lucked out with dragon eggs. I may have to re-read Daenerys chapters to refresh my memory, but from what I remember about her, she lucks out a lot - if she were literally anybody else, she would be dead by now.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just think of the Argonath scene, the Gimli-palantír scene, the Aragorn introduction scene with the shards of Narsil, Aragorn revealing himself to Éomer, etc. and pretend for a moment it were Daenerys every time, going on about the Targaryen kings and - if you want a longer Aragorn-like bloodline - the Targaryen Lords of Dragonstone as well as the Targaryens among the Lords Freeholder of Valyria stretching back to the founding of the city about 5,000 years before ASoIaF.

And you don't have to tell us what you know about Tolkien. We have mostly read the stuff ourselves.

"Stuff" being? Because to me it look like you at least have not read much past Lord of the Rings, which are maybe 5-10% of Tolkien's opus. I cannot claim to be a Tolkien expert myself - I am still slogging through The History of Middle Earth, for example, and am yet to read The Fall of Gondolin - but I do not have impression you have read any of the "background" materials.

Difference in these scenes is basically in intent. Aragorn tells Frodo his lineage not to trumpet his claims, but to gain his trust - as Frodo will not let him help otherwise. Read again that scene: Aragorn did not know Gandalf sent Frodo a letter (about Aragorn himself), yet Frodo did things which brought attention to him, and meant that hobbits would not have survived on their own. So Aragorn had to gain their trust, and establishing his lineage and proving it was the quickest way of doing so, considering Sauron's hate for heirs of Elendil. If Aragorn really was like Daenerys, he would have marched into Minas Tirish and proclaimed himself a rightful king immediately after Battle of Pelennor. Yet he doesn't - he does unfurl royal banner in a battle, to help establish identity as reinforcements, but after the battle he stays outside as "simple commander of Rangers" and refuses to legally claim the crown until the war is over. He only enters Minas Tirith and crowns himself after the Battle of Black Gate.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As long as Elrond is called 'Lord Elrond' and not 'King Elrond' Imladris is no kingdom. Just as Lindon and Lórien are obviously no longer kingdoms since there kings are gone and the guys in charge there do no presume to be kings.

But that aside, there are, of course, also crucial differences between Dany and Aragorn.

I used "kingdom" in meaning of a "sovereign state". And Lorien at least very definitely is a kingdom since Galadriel acts as a caretaker - just like Gondor is still a kingdom despite there not having been a king for centuries.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, and this concept that you can legally own something essentially forever that Tolkien offers there is ludicrous. Aragorn basically triumphs over Sauron in this palantír duel because he has the right family tree. Any scion of his house should have been able to do that.

Quite wrong, at least in the latter part. Tolkien makes it clear in UT that legal ownership of Palantirs applies to Kings, Stewards and anybody else given the right to use one. Basically, Palantirs are the property of Kingdom, not necessarily the King; and since Steward - especially a Ruling Steward - legally has all powers of a King, he also has the right to use the Palantir and will be reinforced by the stone against any external influence. Sauron is basically a Fallen Angel, yet Denethor - a human - managed to resist his influence on a regular basis, where Saruman - a fallen angel of same order as Sauron - quickly succumbed to latter's influence.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

All Aragorn's traits are due to his special bloodline and ancestry - his physical strength, endurance, longevity, intelligence, insight, healing powers.

The one thing he has which might be his own is his decision to not cling to life in the end - but that's, in a sense, also the behavior of an ideal Númenórean, so even that is something where Aragorn follows an example of the past rather than doing something he himself came up with.

How and why should the stones care to work only for their 'rightful owners'? And how is Saruman less of an owner of the Orthanc stone than Denethor is of the Anor stone? After all, didn't the Stewards legally inherit the guardianship of the kingdom of Gondor? And couldn't they thus transfer Isengard and Orthanc to whoever they chose?

Boromir also had special bloodline and ancestry, and quickly succumbed to the One Ring. Isildur had special bloodline and ancestry and quickly succumbed to the One Ring. Ar-Pharazon had special bloodline and ancestry and ended up a thrall. Aragorn refused One Ring because he was educated and intelligent enough to recognize its lure and consequences of it. Same goes for Faramir. Bilbo had no special bloodline yet he gave up One Ring willingly - albeit by gifting it, rather than throwing it away.

And what is the problem in following the past? If old is good enough, why forcibly try something new?

Stones do not "work only for" their "rightful owners" - I never claimed that - but they do work better (as for why, it is magic). As I already wrote before, Tolkien himself pointed out that Aragorn and Denethor both would have been reinforced by the stone against Sauron's influence. And Saruman was no less of an owner of the Orthanc stone than Denethor was for as long as he remained true to his agreement with Gondor. He was given Isengard (Angrenost) by Stewards, but only under certain conditions. As long as he fulfilled those - basically, continuing his mission - he was the legal owner of Isengard and its stone. But he abandoned his mission and - essentially - nullified the agreement long before he became Sauron's thrall, and when he did so, he would have also lost any special assistance and protection provided by the palantir. That, and his personal obsession with power, is why Sauron subdued him so easily.

Honestly, Sauron would have extremely easy time taking over Seven Kingdoms. Iron Throne is basically a Ring of Power.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but that is basically really the standard hidden prince motive. And the problem with Aragorn is more that LotR really isn't his story. He has long been told who he is and we don't know what he knew/suspected about himself back when he was still Estel or what he wanted to do before his foster father said he could only marry Arwen when he won a double crown.

George is not going to make Jon Snow into some Aragorn type guy - oh, people lied to me about who I am and now I shall be king because that's what my family tree says? Don't think that will happen.

That is true, although specifics do seem to be much more similar than just "standard hidden prince".

Yes, Aragorn is a supporting character. Lord of the Rings is a story about the One Ring, and Frodo is the protagonist (Ring itself is a MacGuffin, not a protagonist). So we do not really get to see Aragorn's thoughts on the matter, though Appendices and outside-LotR materials do shed some light.

As I already pointed out before, Aragorn did not want to be king "because that's what my family tree says". He saw it as a duty: call it magic, but having a King in Gondor seems to be much more important than just administration. Royal Family, the White Tree and Gondor itself seem to share a lifeline, and when one withers, all three do. That is my impression, at any rate, but it ties into what I mentioned before: he had a duty to become a King.

And Jon Snow already is Aragorn-type guy, if not necessarily in relation to the throne. He seems to have magical relation to the Wall, much like Kings of Gondor have with the White Tree - except it makes even less sense, seeing how he is just one person, and Wall was built long before the Targaryens came (unless we find out that he is somehow discended from Bran the Builder, with or without Targ admixture). Also, I do expect he will become a king, or at the very least some kind of a Messianic leader figure - books are called A Song of Ice and Fire after all.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But then, I also get a Númenórean vibe with the Tall Men (Sarnori) of the Sarne. They don't really look like Númenóreans and they also don't go to war like them, and the Númenóreans also didn't have bunch of city states, but I still get a sort of Gondor vs. Sauron's people vibe with their struggles with the Dothraki.

That was my thought as well when I read about them.

[Ygrain]

Catelyn's "it should have been you" is a parallel of Denethor hurling into Faramir's face that he wishes him dead instead of Boromir.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 11/21/2019 at 11:27 AM, Aldarion said:

Aragorn was educated in kingship by Elrond. In fact, Elrond raised him - under false name of Estel - after Aragorn's father was killed by the orcs. Aegon was educated in kingship by Jon Connington, who also raised him under false name of Young Griff, after his father was killed by Robert.

I think Jon has more similarities to Aragorn at least in the beginning. Elrond is Aragorn's uncle by about 60 generations removed (because Elrond is immortal), Elrond raises Aragorn, who spends about the first 20 years of his life not aware of his royal parentage. GRRM also said he liked Aragorn better when he was a scruffy character named Strider, who was a ranger in the North. Jon didn't officially get that title, but he gets opportunities to do that anyway. 

On 11/22/2019 at 5:33 AM, Aldarion said:

As I already pointed out before, Aragorn did not want to be king "because that's what my family tree says". He saw it as a duty: call it magic, but having a King in Gondor seems to be much more important than just administration. Royal Family, the White Tree and Gondor itself seem to share a lifeline, and when one withers, all three do. That is my impression, at any rate, but it ties into what I mentioned before: he had a duty to become a King.

It is alluded to in the appendices that he wanted to become king to prove himself worthy of marrying Arwen. The wiki also says that "Elrond withheld from Aragorn permission to marry his daughter until such time as his foster son should be king of Gondor and Arnor reunited." It was similar to Beren in that he had to make sacrifices to be worthy of her. Elven dads had high standards apparently. 

I don't think ASOIAF has an Aragorn/Arwen or will end in a "Numenorean restoration."

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Jon has more similarities to Aragorn at least in the beginning. Elrond is Aragorn's uncle by about 60 generations removed (because Elrond is immortal), Elrond raises Aragorn, who spends about the first 20 years of his life not aware of his royal parentage. GRRM also said he liked Aragorn better when he was a scruffy character named Strider, who was a ranger in the North. Jon didn't officially get that title, but he gets opportunities to do that anyway. 

Actually, Aragorn is kinda split between Jon and Aegon:

1) Aragorn was not aware of his lineage, like Jon, because enemies were searching for him. But he was still raised and educated for his role from the beginning: you cannot just make up a king in a day. In that way he is more similar to Aegon, as Jon did not really begin his leadership training until he became Lord Commander's steward. Though he would have received some education, being raised as Ned Stark's (bastard) son, that is unlikely to be geared towards ruling.

2) When Elrond told Aragorn of his lineage, he gave him shards of Narsil, which is paralleled in ASoIaF by Blackfyre being given to Aegon. Although I suspect Blackfyre might find its way to Jon Snow. And symbols of Dunedain leadership - Narsil, elven stone - feature prominently with Aragorn, much like they do with Aegon (Blackfyre, and possibly Aegon I's crown).

3) Aragorn had it as his goal to return to the throne of Gondor from the moment he learned of his origins, even though other concerns meant that he was unwilling to act on it for a long time. We do not know yet what Jon Snow will do when he learns of his parentage, whereas Aegon did exactly that.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I don't think ASOIAF has an Aragorn/Arwen or will end in a "Numenorean restoration."

That I agree with... halfway. It will (and does) have Aragorn parallel, likely will have Arwen parallel, but like as not, it will end up in tragedy. Twice (first Aegon and whoever he marries dying, then Jon having to kill his lover to forge the Lightbringer).

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/20/2019 at 10:25 PM, Aldarion said:

*

More

Caesterly Rock is Moria. Both are/were amazing source of richness.

Quote

'Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear"

Quote by Gloin, Fellowship of the Ring

Quote

 

Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom."

Jaime's dream in the depths of CR (Jaime VI, ASOS)