Was the Battle on the Green Fork the first example of bolton treason

[Mrstrategy]

Was the Battle on the Green Fork the first example of Bolton treason because looking at the casualties it seems that Bolton wasted a large of his army on the battle specially troops that were from other lords as well as allowing a number of important lords to be captured or killed.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_on_the_Green_Fork

[Arthur Peres]

Look how Robb reacted when the option of taking on Tywin by surprise was presented to him:

Robb hesitated. “The Greatjon thinks we should take the battle to Lord Tywin and surprise him,” he said, “but the Glovers and the Karstarks feel we’d be wiser to go around his army and join up with Uncle Ser Edmure against the Kingslayer.” He ran his fingers through his shaggy mane of auburn hair, looking unhappy. “Though by the time we reach Riverrun . . . I’m not certain . . . ”

“Both plans have virtues, but . . . look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin’s host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him . . . by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised.”

Then Robb's plan is about dividing his army, with the main objective being reaching Riverrun while the other army distracts Tywin, to not allow him to join with Jaime.

“When Lord Tywin gets word that we’ve come south, he’ll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun.” Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

Robb predicted that Tywin would march north like he did, but his army was a distraction, and should not seek battle,. Robb did not wanted a direct confrontation with Tywin and this was the reason Roose was choosen instead of The Greatjon.

“The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell,” he said thoughtfully. “Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don’t want someone fearless, do I?”

“No. You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage.”

“Roose Bolton,” Robb said at once. “That man scares me.”

Once Roose took the command, instead of being cautions like Robb wanted him to be, Roose goes os to execute the exactly same plan of Greatjon, of trying to cathc Tywin with the "briefs down".

Tywin wanted Roose to come to him, as we see here:

The door banged open again. The messenger gave Tyrion’s clansmen a quick, queer look as he dropped to one knee before Lord Tywin. “My lord,” he said, “Ser Addam bid me tell you that the Stark host is moving down the causeway.”

Lord Tywin Lannister did not smile. Lord Tywin never smiled, but Tyrion had learned to read his father’s pleasure all the same, and it was there on his face. “So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions,” he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. “Splendid. Return to Ser Addam and tell him to fall back. He is not to engage the northerners until we arrive, but I want him to harass their flanks and draw them farther south.”

So Roose was doing Tywin's will instead of following Robb's orders. If Roose acted based on caution like Robb wanted, his army would have fulfilled it's mission the moment that the riders of ser Addam haress them, then he would stop, and Tywin would think that Robb was getting yellow and not suspect of the real objective. 

“The boy may hang back or lose his courage when he sees our numbers,” Lord Tywin replied. “The sooner the Starks are broken, the sooner I shall be free to deal with Stannis Baratheon. Tell the drummers to beat assembly, and send word to Jaime that I am marching against Robb Stark.”

If Roose had not forced the march, Tywin would get the news of the relieved siege of Riverrun, and instead of going against Roose would try to reach Riverrun, 

An urgent shout of “Lord Tywin!” turned his father’s head before he could reply. Tywin Lannister rose to his feet as Ser Addam Marbrand leapt down off his courser. The horse was lathered and bleeding from the mouth. Ser Addam dropped to one knee, a rangy man with dark copper hair that fell to his shoulders, armored in burnished bronzed steel with the fiery tree of his House etched black on his breastplate. “My liege, we have taken some of their commanders. Lord Cerwyn, Ser Wylis Manderly, Harrion Karstark, four Freys. Lord Hornwood is dead, and I fear Roose Bolton has escaped us.”

“And the boy?” Lord Tywin asked. Ser Addam hesitated. “

The Stark boy was not with them, my lord. They say he crossed at the Twins with the great part of his horse, riding hard for Riverrun.”

but would still fail, after all, with a forced march and leaving the wounded to die, he still was days away from Riverrun

His father had set a grueling pace, and it had taken its toll. Men wounded in the battle kept up as best they could or were abandoned to fend for themselves. Every morning they left a few more by the roadside, men who went to sleep never to wake. Every afternoon a few more collapsed along the way. And every evening a few more deserted, stealing off into the dusk. Tyrion had been half-tempted to go with them.

He had been upstairs, enjoying the comfort of a featherbed and the warmth of Shae’s body beside him, when his squire had woken him to say that a rider had arrived with dire news of Riverrun. So it had all been for nothing. The rush south, the endless forced marches, the bodies left beside the road . . . all for naught. Robb Stark had reached Riverrun days and days ago.

So Roose wasted a 1/3 of his army over nothing. If this isn't betrayl then is incompetence in it's highiest leves.

[Arthur Peres]

In fact Roose performed so poorly that surprised even Tywin.

Look at the discription of the vanguard that Roose failed to beat, for once...

the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers’ rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport . . . and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

“Crow food,” Bronn muttered beside him, giving voice to what Tyrion had left unsaid. He could only nod. Had his lord father taken leave of his senses? No pikes, too few bowmen, a bare handful of knights, the ill-armed and unarmored, commanded by an unthinking brute who led with his rage . . . how could his father expect this travesty of a battle to hold his left?

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

In fact Roose performed so poorly that surprised even Tywin.

Look at the discription of the vanguard that Roose failed to beat, for once...

the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers’ rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport . . . and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

“Crow food,” Bronn muttered beside him, giving voice to what Tyrion had left unsaid. He could only nod. Had his lord father taken leave of his senses? No pikes, too few bowmen, a bare handful of knights, the ill-armed and unarmored, commanded by an unthinking brute who led with his rage . . . how could his father expect this travesty of a battle to hold his left?

 

I'm sorry, but where in that quote does it suggest that Tywin thinks Roose did poorly?

From what we know Tywin seemed disappointed that Roose's army did not fall into the trap he had setup. There does not seem to be a case of him thinking he did poorly. 

[Arthur Peres]

50 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, but where in that quote does it suggest that Tywin thinks Roose did poorly?

From what we know Tywin seemed disappointed that Roose's army did not fall into the trap he had setup. There does not seem to be a case of him thinking he did poorly. 

That one proves that the vanguard was a messy rabble barely putted together.

This one proves that Tywin wanted them to be break, and as Tyrion pointed out, ruined his plans when it didn't.

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. “I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I’d hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan’s pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve.”

“And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans.”

“A feigned rout is less convincing,” his father said, “and I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages.”

“A pity my savages ruined your dance.” Tyrion pulled off his steel gauntlet and let it fall to the ground, wincing at the pain that stabbed up his arm.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I have long debated whether or not Roose was actively undermining Robb or merely using war to undermine his neighbors. Most of his actions in the battle are just bad tactics or strategy when looked at as a whole.

• Why force the night march only to leave formed battles a mile from the enemy only to let the sleeping Lannister army stretched out over leagues arm themselves and assemble?
• Why order a charge of your infantry from a superior defensive position (top of hills) against an army with a large heavy cavalry contingent and try fighting through a river?
• Where are the northern archers?
  • They should be skirmishing or providing cover fire with the Lannister archers, who we see deployed
• Why even engage Tywin at all? 
  • Letting Tywin know where you are and drawing him up the KR accomplishes the same thing as a battle: making sure Tywin cannot send a force to fight with Jaime or let him know Robb is coming with the cavalry 

Best as I have been able to surmise, Roose accomplished what Robb asked to do in the worst way possible. The only explanation would be Roose's incompetence, and nothing we've read, seen, or heard from ASOIAF characters leads me to believe the man is incompetent. This explains why his neighbors were captured and the Dreadfort men are not seen on page by Tyrion.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

• Why force the night march only to leave formed battles a mile from the enemy only to let the sleeping Lannister army stretched out over leagues arm themselves and assemble?

The night march is fairly obvious, right? Roose was given the foot, Robb had the cavalry yet Roose was expected to keep Tywin occupied while Robb freed Rivverun. Roose has to march day and night to do this.

Also did Robb not also travel at night? Why do people, not necessarily you, think it odd that Roose did so?

Roose had been spotted. The Lannister trumpets signalled this. Continuing to march more miles into the enemy makes no sense. Does Roose even know they were sleeping and largely unprepared? Where they that unprepared? The recently awoken Tyrion may not be fully aware of these details.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

• Why order a charge of your infantry from a superior defensive position (top of hills) against an army with a large heavy cavalry contingent and try fighting through a river?

The description of this battle is barely two paragraphs. I don't know why so many assume to know how superior Roose's position actually was.

Given that you've long debated this issue I don't expect you to re-evaluate your position now, but how can you be certain that all of the geography was in Roose's favour?

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

• Where are the northern archers?
  • They should be skirmishing or providing cover fire with the Lannister archers, who we see deployed

We don't have a POV in the Northern camp. We barely have one in the Lannister camp, with Tyrion waking late and being pretty much in the fog of war.

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

• Why even engage Tywin at all? 
  • Letting Tywin know where you are and drawing him up the KR accomplishes the same thing as a battle: making sure Tywin cannot send a force to fight with Jaime or let him know Robb is coming with the cavalry

He's on foot. What you are proposing is allow a rout. Tywin knew the army was there, it is only when he is surprised in the middle of the night does he move upwards.

Tywin is a pretty cautious commander, right? His lack of movement for the majority of ACOK kind of proves that. He does not move from a secure position for little reason. He's not a barking dog.

Some questions for you;

 

1. Why do neither Tywin or Tyrion think that Roose has thrown the battle?
2. Why does Robb or the Blackfish not question why Roose engaged in a battle Roose did not have to? The Blackfish scouts should not be in the dark about something taking place in the Riverlands.
3. Why do the nobles with Roose not cotton onto him deliberately throwing the battle?
4. Why do the nobles captured not cotton onto this? The Freys were clearly pissed about being Tywin's hostage later in the book, Aenys himself is supposed to be a decent commander (though poor fighter), why could he not work out what Roose did?
5. What is in it for Roose at that point? Ned was still alive before the battle. Renly and Stannis not rebelled. How does losing that battle do more benefit for Roose than winning and capturing and (eventually) collecting insane ransoms for the Westerland tier 1 nobility?

 

To me this is a case of Occam's razor. On one hand we have no characters, none of the other sub commanders on either side coming to the conclusion that Roose threw the battle/entered a battle he did not have to against a couple of vague paragraphs of battle description from an author who notoriously over uses the fog of war in place of giving detailed battle plans.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

That one proves that the vanguard was a messy rabble barely putted together.

This one proves that Tywin wanted them to be break, and as Tyrion pointed out, ruined his plans when it didn't.

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. “I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I’d hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan’s pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve.”

“And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans.”

“A feigned rout is less convincing,” his father said, “and I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages.”

“A pity my savages ruined your dance.” Tyrion pulled off his steel gauntlet and let it fall to the ground, wincing at the pain that stabbed up his arm.

I'm sorry, you have ignored what I actually asked. You said Roose did so poorly that it even surprised Tywin. Where is that said?

Tywin, if I remember correctly, is disappointed that Roose did not fall into his trap. That does not suggest he thinks Roose did poorly, it suggests that he was expecting a larger victory than the one he actually got.

[Darth Sidious]

7 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Was the Battle on the Green Fork the first example of Bolton treason because looking at the casualties it seems that Bolton wasted a large of his army on the battle specially troops that were from other lords as well as allowing a number of important lords to be captured or killed.

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_on_the_Green_Fork

I would argue that Roose Bolton did not commit treason.  He was loyal to King Joffrey and worked to undermine a rebel.  As the loyal vassal of King Joffrey, Roose had a duty to stop Robb and the Starks.  

[Arthur Peres]

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, you have ignored what I actually asked. You said Roose did so poorly that it even surprised Tywin. Where is that said?

Tywin, if I remember correctly, is disappointed that Roose did not fall into his trap. That does not suggest he thinks Roose did poorly, it suggests that he was expecting a larger victory than the one he actually got.

No I didn't ignored you. You're the one that lost my point.

My original post you quoted was about how badly Roose performed. So badly in fact that a unorganized rabble poorly putted together was able to repel his army...Tyrion is clear on his pov, and Bronn even call them "crow food" and they still resisted Roose charge. Later on we have Tywin confirming that he inteded them to break, and Tyrion mocking him the fact that they didn't.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The night march is fairly obvious, right? Roose was given the foot, Robb had the cavalry yet Roose was expected to keep Tywin occupied while Robb freed Rivverun. Roose has to march day and night to do this.

Also did Robb not also travel at night? Why do people, not necessarily you, think it odd that Roose did so?

Not qualms with the night march. And I'd disagree on the necessity of the duality of marches here. He merely had to attract Tywin's attention. Tyrion himself knew that the Stark's were at least a day's march away (~20 miles based on "contemporary" armies).

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Roose had been spotted. The Lannister trumpets signalled this. Continuing to march more miles into the enemy makes no sense. Does Roose even know they were sleeping and largely unprepared? Where they that unprepared? The recently awoken Tyrion may not be fully aware of these details.

Roose has outriders and he can hear the trumpets of the Lannister army warning against an enemy. Based on the text, they were unprepared. People were definitely getting ready for battle as the trumpets sounded as opposed to being armed, armored and in formation.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The description of this battle is barely two paragraphs. I don't know why so many assume to know how superior Roose's position actually was.

Uh more like 3-4 pages. In the ebook it goes from 608-614.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Given that you've long debated this issue I don't expect you to re-evaluate your position now, but how can you be certain that all of the geography was in Roose's favour?

Generally armies don't want to fight an enemy on higher ground, which the northerners held as far as we can tell:

“ and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.”

Do I know 100% canonically that Roose's entire army held the high ground? No but I do know that at least the right flank came boiling over the top of multiple hills -- that implies most if not all the army for me given how Tyrion notes the numbers -- and that Tywin's army was arranged next to the river and on top of the KR. KR isn't going to be elevated unless it needs to be.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't have a POV in the Northern camp. We barely have one in the Lannister camp, with Tyrion waking late and being pretty much in the fog of war.

Right but we have other characters who were awake before the trumpets sounded who tell tyrion what's going on

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

He's on foot. What you are proposing is allow a rout. Tywin knew the army was there, it is only when he is surprised in the middle of the night does he move upwards.

Erm no. We have no indication that Tywin's camp wasn't moving north to engage Robb. The only information we have is Marbrand's outriders and to our best knowledge the Green Fork battle was several days march from the Twins.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin is a pretty cautious commander, right? His lack of movement for the majority of ACOK kind of proves that. He does not move from a secure position for little reason. He's not a barking dog.

Some questions for you;

1. Why do neither Tywin or Tyrion think that Roose has thrown the battle?

Tyrion doesn't seem to know Roose Bolton that much and Tywin is far more concerned with Jaime's capture.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

1. Why does Robb or the Blackfish not question why Roose engaged in a battle Roose did not have to? The Blackfish scouts should not be in the dark about something taking place in the Riverlands.

Basically everything they know about the battle is what Roose sends them. It wasn't out of the question for Roose to engage Tywin and lose, so why would Robb think to question?

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

1. Why do the nobles with Roose not cotton onto him deliberately throwing the battle?

How many nobles do we see discussing Roose's disposition in the battle at all? Basically none except when Robb acknowledges Roose's battle allowed him get to RR.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

1. Why do the nobles captured not cotton onto this? The Freys were clearly pissed about being Tywin's hostage later in the book, Aenys himself is supposed to be a decent commander (though poor fighter), why could he not work out what Roose did?

Are you going to make accusations against a popular rival during wartime without proof? No one would. Roose was essentially appointed 2nd in command by Robb. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

1. What is in it for Roose at that point? Ned was still alive before the battle. Renly and Stannis not rebelled. How does losing that battle do more benefit for Roose than winning and capturing and (eventually) collecting insane ransoms for the Westerland tier 1 nobility?

Ask GRRM: 

ROOSE BOLTON

Hate to bother you but I have a question concerning Roose Bolton's betrayal. There are some that think that Roose had treachery in mind from the minute Robb left Winterfell. That his battle against Tywin was against Robb's wishes and meant to weaken the other Northern Houses. I believe he first thought of treachery after Stannis was defeated and Highgarden joined with the Lannisters. Could you clarify any of this or will is it something that is to be revealed later?

Lord Bolton may well have all sorts of things in mind. Whether or not he would act on any of those thoughts is another matter. Roose is the sort of fellow who keeps his thoughts to himself.

And the best sword is the one that cuts both ways, he might tell you. Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened. The only way he could lose there would be if were captured or slain himself, and he did his best to minimize the chances of that.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

To me this is a case of Occam's razor. On one hand we have no characters, none of the other sub commanders on either side coming to the conclusion that Roose threw the battle/entered a battle he did not have to against a couple of vague paragraphs of battle description from an author who notoriously over uses the fog of war in place of giving detailed battle plans.

You're vastly understating the amount of detail we get in the book

[SilverGhost]

Duskendale was Roose throwing away an army, Roose Bolton is cunning enough that if he wanted to lose an army he would have lost an army. Most likely he placed Lord Hornwood in position to bite it since Hornwood's lands are near to his and the Hornwood lands would pass to a young man riding in Robb's personal guard (which would be in the thick of battle and a major target for the Kingslayer). The rest of the battle I side with Martin, he's either a hero for winning or he saves his own ass by hanging someone else's troops out to dry. He doesn't fall into Tywin's trap, he holds the high ground and allows the enemy to come at him. So he is fighting on ground of his choosing and refuses to reinforce failure once the Mountain breaks his line - both are tactically sound decisions and he preserved enough of his strength to be a factor in the war as his host retreated in mostly good order and reformed to be a threat to Harrenhall. 

If Roose wanted to lose on the Green Fork he had ample opportunity to sacrifice more of his host and there was a trap that he could have blunder into and used the excuse that he was outfought and tricked by Tywin Lannister. 

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, SilverGhost said:

Duskendale was Roose throwing away an army, Roose Bolton is cunning enough that if he wanted to lose an army he would have lost an army. Most likely he placed Lord Hornwood in position to bite it since Hornwood's lands are near to his and the Hornwood lands would pass to a young man riding in Robb's personal guard (which would be in the thick of battle and a major target for the Kingslayer). The rest of the battle I side with Martin, he's either a hero for winning or he saves his own ass by hanging someone else's troops out to dry. He doesn't fall into Tywin's trap, he holds the high ground and allows the enemy to come at him. So he is fighting on ground of his choosing and refuses to reinforce failure once the Mountain breaks his line - both are tactically sound decisions and he preserved enough of his strength to be a factor in the war as his host retreated in mostly good order and reformed to be a threat to Harrenhall. 

If Roose wanted to lose on the Green Fork he had ample opportunity to sacrifice more of his host and there was a trap that he could have blunder into and used the excuse that he was outfought and tricked by Tywin Lannister. 

I take issue with some of what you said. His retreat was disastrous. He had just under 18,000 men when he began the Battle of the Green Fork. The next time we find out about his numbers, he has 10,000 men left. Those casualties are horrific, especially when you consider how lightly Tywin’s forces suffered. Bolton might not have tried to break the Northern army, but he definitely wanted to weaken the forces of all his northern neighbours as a future advantage to himself. It just shows how clever and far sighted he is, so unlike Ramsay.

[Bernie Mac]

58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I take issue with some of what you said. His retreat was disastrous.

No one in the books seems to share that opinon.

58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

He had just under 18,000 men when he began the Battle of the Green Fork.

More like 17k, possibly under.

58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

The next time we find out about his numbers, he has 10,000 men left.

11k.

And this is a few months later, after various battles, no camp and various skirmishes. Desertions and losses would be expected from an army having no base in a warzone.

58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

Those casualties are horrific, especially when you consider how lightly Tywin’s forces suffered.

But not when you consider the two armies. It is not simply 20k Lannister men vs 17k Northern men but a Lannister army with 7,500 mounted & 12,500 foot versus 600 mounted & 16,500 foot. The odds were greatly in the Lannister's favour. Robb took all the best troops, Tywin kept the best troops and the Westerland army was likely already better equipped and trained than their Northern counterparts to begin with.

Roose did well. Tywin thought so and Robb clearly thought so as well, he left him in command for the rest of the war and when he was planning his assault on Moat Cailin he wanted Roose, along withhimself and the Greatjon as the the three commanders in charge.

58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

Bolton might not have tried to break the Northern army, but he definitely wanted to weaken the forces of all his northern neighbours as a future advantage to himself.

How does he know? Ned is still alive, there is no real reason to expect the realm to erupt into civil war, that Theon would be released, sail home and take Winterfell thus weakening Robb's positon or that Robb himself would survive and declare himself King.

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 1/3/2020 at 3:39 AM, Arthur Peres said:

No I didn't ignored you. You're the one that lost my point.

No offence, but your point was clear. You suggested that Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did. Nothing in the books suggest this, certainly nothing in the quotes you tried to use as evidence.

On 1/3/2020 at 3:39 AM, Arthur Peres said:

My original post you quoted was about how badly Roose performed.

No, you claimed that Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did. Do we have to go through this every time we talk on here?

Rather than pivot can you not just reread what you actually said and what I disagreed with and talk about that rather than try to constantly change the subject.

Are you

 

1. No longer claiming Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did?
2. Still claiming Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did?

If it is 1 we can end this conversation, it 2 can you quote from the text to back your claim up.

 

[Arthur Peres]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

No offence, but your point was clear. You suggested that Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did. Nothing in the books suggest this, certainly nothing in the quotes you tried to use as evidence.

No, you claimed that Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did. Do we have to go through this every time we talk on here?

 Rather than pivot can you not just reread what you actually said and what I disagreed with and talk about that rather than try to constantly change the subject.

 Are you

 

1. No longer claiming Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did?
2. Still claiming Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did?

If it is 1 we can end this conversation, it 2 can you quote from the text to back your claim up.

 

Tywin said with all the words that he putted a dead horse to be beaten and broken by the northems... and Tyrion mocked him that they didn't broke. What is you dificult to understand this?

Roose lost more than six thousand man and couldn't inflicted more than a thousand casualities on his foe, and this is because Tywin choose to not give persue. Roose managed to be repel by the rabble that was Tywin's vanguard. He is either the most incompetent general on the series or a traitor from the start. 

[Bernie Mac]

On 1/3/2020 at 5:15 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Not qualms with the night march. And I'd disagree on the necessity of the duality of marches here. He merely had to attract Tywin's attention.

And if he fails to get Tywin's attention before word reaches Tywin about Riverrun?

Robb needed Tywin concentrating on something else. Robb has no idea how long it will take him to free Riverrun, he had no idea just how poorly Jaime's scouts would do, how idiotic Jaimie would be and how Jaime's army would sleep while he was fighting a few miles away.

Robb's plan went perfectly, but he (or the Blackfish) would not have planned for everything to go perfectly. They needed Tywin to be preoccupied.

Robb is beyond pissed when Edmure attacks Tywin, when Glover attacks Duskendale. Why does he not care about Roose doing so?

Quote

 

Tyrion himself knew that the Stark's were at least a day's march away (~20 miles based on "contemporary" armies).

And Roose surprised Tywin by making it to Tywin's position so quickly. Like the plan we hear at Moat Cailin, Roose caught Tywin with his britches down.

Quote

Roose has outriders and he can hear the trumpets of the Lannister army warning against an enemy. Based on the text, they were unprepared. People were definitely getting ready for battle as the trumpets sounded as opposed to being armed, armored and in formation.

How does Roose know they were unprepared?

Tywin is in enemy territory to begin with, he's also being raided by Riverland soldiers. His camp is not to have certain defences and be reasonably ready for battle.

 

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Uh more like 3-4 pages. In the ebook it goes from 608-614.

I said details. There is precious little about the military details of that battle, the actual geography from all areas.

Quote

Generally armies don't want to fight an enemy on higher ground, which the northerners held as far as we can tell:

How much higher? How vulnerable was it from all sides?

Quote

 

Do I know 100% canonically that Roose's entire army held the high ground?

That is all I needed to know. You have a conclusion, you are speculating to get to it.

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No but I do know that at least the right flank came boiling over the top of multiple hills

And what was next to these hills? Where they muddy, dry, where they a suitable place to hold a position? Where they vulnerable to some sides and not from others?

We have so little details about pertinent facts of the battle. People reading 'hills' and the jumping to conclusions is ridiculous.

 

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Right but we have other characters who were awake before the trumpets sounded who tell tyrion what's going on

Refesh my memory, what great details do they share?

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Erm no. We have no indication that Tywin's camp wasn't moving north to engage Robb.

There is zero indication that Tywin was going to abandon his central Riverlands position too much.

We only have to look at him spending most of the war sat at Harrenhal to know this. Or we can look at how Robb, the Blackfish and the other commanders talk about Tywin at Harrenhal.

They don't talk of him like they expect him to be rash with his movement.

 

 

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Tyrion doesn't seem to know Roose Bolton that much and Tywin is far more concerned with Jaime's capture.

lol so a non answer. We are just going to ignore it. Gotcha!

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Basically everything they know about the battle is what Roose sends them.

According to who?

The Blackfish is able to know exactly where the Tyrell army came into the Riverlands, who they sent to meet with Tywin and where and when the barges were built, but we are expected to think he and his scouts were clueless about  everything else that happened in the Riverlands.

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It wasn't out of the question for Roose to engage Tywin and lose, so why would Robb think to question?

Except other people, (possibly yourself) have said just that in this thread. That Roose engaging Tywin made no sense.

So you are of the positon that Tywin engaging Roose does make sense?

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How many nobles do we see discussing Roose's disposition in the battle at all? Basically none except when Robb acknowledges Roose's battle allowed him get to RR.

How many times do we see Robb taking a shit?

We don't have to see something to know it happens. You get that, right?

Is this really what you are going to do, dodge the questions and pretend that such conversations don't happen during war?

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Are you going to make accusations against a popular rival during wartime without proof? No one would. Roose was essentially appointed 2nd in command by Robb. 

For one battle. Robb, on his own volition, decided that Roose was to carry on in charge of the foot for the rest of the war and when he planned on retaking Moat Cailin the Greatjon and Roose would be his subcommanders in doing so.

And yes, commanders do make accusations if they think their superiors are sabotaging battles. So no, I disagree with your assertions that all the Northern and Frey nobles would remain silent.

Nor do I agree with your assertion that Roose was a 'popular' rival. I think you are really, really stretching the truth to make that claim.

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Ask GRRM: 

ROOSE BOLTON

Hate to bother you but I have a question concerning Roose Bolton's betrayal. There are some that think that Roose had treachery in mind from the minute Robb left Winterfell. That his battle against Tywin was against Robb's wishes and meant to weaken the other Northern Houses. I believe he first thought of treachery after Stannis was defeated and Highgarden joined with the Lannisters. Could you clarify any of this or will is it something that is to be revealed later?

Lord Bolton may well have all sorts of things in mind. Whether or not he would act on any of those thoughts is another matter. Roose is the sort of fellow who keeps his thoughts to himself.

And the best sword is the one that cuts both ways, he might tell you. Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened. The only way he could lose there would be if were captured or slain himself, and he did his best to minimize the chances of that.

Yeah, GRRM is clearly not saying that Roose tried to lose that battle.

How do you read that quote and come to that conclusion.

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You're vastly understating the amount of detail we get in the book

About the Battle of Green Fork? No, I'm not.

It is short on meaningful details.

[Bernie Mac]

26 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Tywin said with all the words that he putted a dead horse to be beaten and broken by the northems... and Tyrion mocked him that they didn't broke. What is you dificult to understand this?

eh? Come on. I asked a simple question.

You made a claim that Tywin was surprised with how poorly Roose did. All you have to do is quote Tywin where he seems surprised by this.

26 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Roose lost more than six thousand man and couldn't inflicted more than a thousand casualities on his foe,

Well no, less than 6k.

And this should not surprise you. You do realize these were unevenly matched armies, right?

You do realize that there is a difference between heavy horse vs an infantry soldier, right?

Tywin's army was far more powerful than the army Robb gave Roose. Robb kept the elite units for himself, and left Roose with the foot.

26 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

and this is because Tywin choose to not give persue.

Well it is for two reasons

1) You are 100 percent correct. It was partly down to Tywin choosing not to pursue. Had he done so Roose himself could be dead. That is why the idea that he deliberately sabotaged the battle makes zero sense (on some subconscious level you agree with me).

2) Due to Roose being cautious and not extending the push into the centre.

26 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Roose managed to be repel by the rabble that was Tywin's vanguard.

Come on, you are reading it wrong. He was being cautious. He did not fall into the trap Tywin had set.

I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve

26 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

He is either the most incompetent general on the series or a traitor from the start. 

Surely if he did what you are claiming, then Robb, not removing him from command in the aftermath, is the more incompetent general.

[Arthur Peres]

@Bernie Mac

Let's start from the begining

Tywin original plan for the battle was posting his low quality vanguard on the left, with a river on their side, Tyrion even thinks that he cannot be flanked and that this was his protection against being flanked, but it wasn't.

Tywin wanted the northems to break the rabble he putted there, and thinking that they are winning, pour more man in the gap that would have opened, and them Tywin would use his much strong right flank to cut the northem army from retreat, force them to fight with their backs to the river, and exterminate them. You agree with this part right?

Then Tywin plan fails, you think that is due to Roose's caution that made him not fall for it and not pour more man in the gap, I don't see it as caution, and the reason for my belive is, exactly because the vanguard was never broken to start, so there was never a gap to explore, the northems were repelled because Roose exausted his men before the battle with the forced march, they performed very poorly.

Tyrion even points out that the line didn't break, and mocks Tywin for his plan failing  "A pity my savages ruined your dance.".

[300 H&H Magnum]

Roose was disloyal from the outset.  I suspect many others were but Roose was the only one bold enough to act on it.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

AGoT, Catelyn IX.

The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men-at-arms on foot, remained upon the east bank under the command of Roose Bolton. Robb had commanded him to continue the march south, to confront the huge Lannister army coming north under Lord Tywin.

Merriam-Webster's definition of the word confront:

transitive verb

1 : to face especially in challenge : OPPOSE

2 a : to cause to meet : bring face-to-face

b : to meet face-to-face : ENCOUNTER

Learner's Dictionary:

1 a : to oppose or challenge (someone) especially in a direct and forceful way

2 a : to deal with (something, such as a problem or danger)

especially : to deal with (something) in an honest and direct way

c : to be a problem for (someone or something)

Dictionary.Com:

verb (used with object)

1 to face in hostility or defiance; oppose:

3 to stand or come in front of; stand or meet facing:

4 to be in one's way:

- - -

So, we know that i) Robb told Roose to march south and confront Tywin, who ii) in turn was coming north. How one interprets the word confront and whether it means an actual order from Robb for Roose to violently make a battle with Tywin is their choice.