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[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

GRRM did intend for Jon to be with Arya which honestly makes me wonder about him some.

But you’re talking about that outline, the one he said later he was making shit up b/c his publishers (or whoever) kept asking for an outline. He’s also said he doesn’t do outlines, doesn’t like to, because gardening. Also, there was no Cersei in that outline. Seems to me he chucked all of that, since he was “making shit up”, but decided to keep a non-Targ (Maybe?) sibling couple, and to boot he made it the worst, most toxic relationship in the whole story. 

[Nagini's Neville]

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How is marrying Tyrion the downfall of Stark?

it would have put WF permanently into Lannister hands. that was the whole reason for the marriage after all.

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Lol idk. The sanctity of marriage and all that... Im all for getting a divorce from a toxic marriage, but I do think a couple should try to make it. NW is just dumb lol

So it's just your personal opinion. Then sorry it's irrelevant  

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I meant Cats words to be the Tully phrase. Family Duty Honor, which to me goes against getting divorced

Well, by her own words she seems to be totally fine to kill Tyrion for Sansa's sake. And you contradict yourself. If the Lannisters are now Sansa's family, Catelyn is a Stark and their motto is Winter is coming.....for the Lannisters  

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My theory is Luke knew Han loved Leia and was kinda trolling him, pretending to enjoy that kiss. 

But then in RotJ shes like "somehow Ive always known" which totally raises some red flags lol

 

haha yeah

[TedBear]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol what? The man who continued to support Sansas engagement when she saw what a monster her fiancee was?

The one who told Arya, forget your dreams your gonna marry some random lord?

/Ned rant over... for now lol

I don't think anyone knew the mad monster that was Joffrey until he ordered Ned's death and started a war (or was it as it seemed to me, Robert even comments on his bad behavior, but I don't think anyone knew his level of cruelty)  until then he was an extremely spoiled boy and Sansa was down for him. As for Arya, this is how the female life cycle in Westeros occurs, it does not mean that he did not care about the welfare of his children. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol what? The man who continued to support Sansas engagement when she saw what a monster her fiancee was?

I don't think Ned knew Joffrey was the psycho sadistic little shit he was... 

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The one who told Arya, forget your dreams your gonna marry some random lord?

Maybe you’re misremembering? Ned never said anything remotely close to “forget your dreams, you will marry a lord (or whatever).

That convo started w/ Ned telling Arya she would one day marry a lord, yes, and Arya immediately replied, “no, that’s not me”. And Ned then hired Syrio to be her dancing master. I’d say that, for Westeros, that’s pretty fucking awesome.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Ned knew Joffrey was the psycho sadistic little shit he was... 

yes, both Sansa and Ned did not get it until it was to late

[Elegant Woes]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It would be choosing if she'll marry...

AFFC Alayne II

"A marriage . . ." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . ." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know." 
 

Sure there's a possibility that Sansa may never marry again, but it does go against the foreshadowing. Ned promised she would marry a high lord who is "Brave, Gentle and Strong." Sansa has yet to meet the "Beast" to her "Beauty". Plus this line: 

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It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. - ASOS, Sansa VI. 

Sounds like it will be subverted at some point, rather than a depressing fact about Sansa's life. Besides I believe that no matter how cynical Sansa gets a part of her will always want to marry for love and have children. To me there's something distasteful about the thought of Sansa accepting she will never get them. That is equivalent to Arya caving into what is expected of her as a Westerosi noble woman. Bran believing he's broken and that he, as a disabled boy, can't have a place in his society. Jon accepting that he's insignificant bastard and can't be a hero and a Stark. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

But you’re talking about that outline, the one he said later he was making shit up b/c his publishers (or whoever) kept asking for an outline. He’s also said he doesn’t do outlines, doesn’t like to, because gardening. Also, there was no Cersei in that outline. Seems to me he chucked all of that, since he was “making shit up”, but decided to keep a non-Targ (Maybe?) sibling couple, and to boot he made it the worst, most toxic relationship in the whole story. 

I didn't know he said it was bs. That makes me feel a little better lol 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't know he said it was bs. That makes me feel a little better lol 

It was a Jon- Arya-Tyrion love triangle lol - that just doesn't work at all with the current characters.

He obviously knew already a bit about the elements and themes he wanted to have in his story, like an incest couple and a Stark sister in some sort of relationship with Tyrion a Lannister, but no specifics necessarily.

A friend of mine is a writer and she does that as well all the time, like changing characters' gender and with that the story changes again. I think it is a natural part of the process especially for gardeners.

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

 Sansa has yet to meet the "Beast" to her "Beauty". 

So you think Jon will turn into a Beast? 

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 Besides I believe that no matter how cynical Sansa gets a part of her will always want to marry for love and have children. To me there's something distasteful about the thought of Sansa accepting she will never get them. That is equivalent to Arya caving into societal expectations of a Westerosi noble woman. Bran believing he's broken that he as a disabled boy can't have a place in his society. Jon accepting that he's insignificant bastard and can't be a hero and a Stark.

 I agree. That's a good  comparison. 

[Elegant Woes]

@Nagini's Neville No. I mean Sansa's romantic storyline is intertwined with the fairy tale Beauty and the Beast. So far she has only met foils of the beast : Joffrey, Sandor and Tyrion. As to who that person will be... eh .. 

I am glad you liked that part. It came to me in the spot, and the comparison to her siblings made me even more convinced that Sansa will get them. I expect that she will fight for her agency and dreams. That makes her a hero. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Nagini's Neville No. I mean Sansa's romantic storyline is intertwined with the fairy tale Beauty and the Beast. So far she has only met several foils of the beast : Joffrey, Sandor and Tyrion. As to who that person will be... eh .. 

Ah okay gotta ya  

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I am glad you liked that part. It came to me in the spot, and the comparison to her siblings made me even more convinced that Sansa will get them. I expect that she will fight for her agency and dreams. That makes her a hero. 

Yes, I mean nobody would expect, that in the end of the story Arya to just resigns and caves into society's expectations of her, so why should we expect, that Sansa will give up who, she truly is at heart. Also as the Cersei incident has proven, she can be single-minded and willful- when she just knows what she wants. I feel like there could be a moment like that in the future, but it won't be a mistake and she will disobey her fake father this time and not her real one- just an idea  

[Elegant Woes]

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I feel like there could be a moment like that in the future, but it won't be a mistake and she will disobey her fake father this time and not her real one- just an idea

I fully expect this to happen in the upcoming book. Perhaps she will learn about 'Arya' from the Redforts and that will inspire her to rebel against Littlefinger and run away from him. If Beauty and Beast speaks to her romantic storyline, then the Princess in the Tower plays a part in her political/agency storyline. Like Rapunzel, Sansa needs to go outside. Her journey to the North will be an anonymous one. Of that I am sure. 

[Lollygag]

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree about GRRM in that people wouldn't think it if he didn't write about it. It is almost exclusively the Targs though. Jaime & Cersei are the exception & their "romance" is hidden & taboo. Jon & Dany make a little more sense because they are aunt & nephew, not siblings. They weren't raised as relatives. If they come together neither of them will likely know of their relation. Daenerys obviously won't take issue with it but Jon might. 

Jon/Arya or Sansa were raised as siblings, none are Targs (that they know of) & weren't raised to believe they should marry their sibling. I personally think it would do the series a great injustice to take any of the Stark kids & insert incest, particularly at this late stage in the game. 

GRRM did intend for Jon to be with Arya which honestly makes me wonder about him some. There is no reason plot wise & it would be incest just for the sake of the author liking to write about incest. Perhaps when that was the plan the story was different & it had some purpose. 

I'm not arguing for or against 1, 2 or all 3 (yes, he might do all 3 in some capacity as he has multiple romantic interests for his characters) incest ships happening, just that I don't agree with the absolute certainty that GRRM won't go there. I'm preparing myself for the worst but hoping for the best. We'll see how that goes. 

100% certainty that Ron & Ginny Weasley won't hook up in Harry Potter? I agree totally based on Rowling's past writings. For GRRM not having relatives hook up? I have no such certainty for him. At all. 

 

Bold: More just in general, but I realized after reading the Aeron TWOW chapter that having so long between books led me to lose sight of just how surprising and unpredictable the books can be so I've since tried to not make hard predictions based on what looks logical right now. I'm gonna get very surprised and will probably laugh at the differences between where I think the books will go right now vs what's actually written, if they're ever written. 

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

it would have put WF permanently into Lannister hands. that was the whole reason for the marriage after all.

Well seeing on how WF is now in the hands of Rams without a Poole in sight, I think a Sansa Lannister would give strength to the power and resurrection of Stark.

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Winter is coming.....for the Lannisters  

Indeed

3 hours ago, TedBear said:

, it does not mean that he did not care about the welfare of his children. 

I didnt mean that at all. Just that he cared less then others lol. Or didnt give it much thought (surprise surprise). He wasnt truly plotting with his children like Doran but he wasn't all hold them close like Myrcella or Lord Robert, which isnt healthy either.

He certainly loved and cared for Arya, I think its because he saw Lyanna in her. As for Sansa, he was nice enough just didnt teach or help her or anything (and then Joff). Bran, idk how he coulda left him in the coma like that, Im sure he loved him, but damn. And then he straight up sent Jon to prison for life, but thats being a bad uncle not father lol

3 hours ago, TedBear said:

I don't think anyone knew the mad monster that was Joffrey until he ordered Ned's death and started a war (or was it as it seemed to me, Robert even comments on his bad behavior, but I don't think anyone knew his level of cruelty)  until then he was an extremely spoiled boy and Sansa was down for him. As for Arya, this is how the female life cycle in Westeros occurs, it does not mean that he did not care about the welfare of his children. 

 

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Ned knew Joffrey was the psycho sadistic little shit he was... 

Course he did. He was all assholish in WF and then he made up that Nymeria story and had Mycha killed. Sansa told him this. Arya retold him, was like Joffs the worst. Ned agrees, keeps on truckin

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe you’re misremembering? Ned never said anything remotely close to “forget your dreams, you will marry a lord (or whatever).

That convo started w/ Ned telling Arya she would one day marry a lord, yes, and Arya immediately replied, “no, that’s not me”. And Ned then hired Syrio to be her dancing master. I’d say that, for Westeros, that’s pretty fucking awesome.

Nah.

.

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

.

Syrio was already on the payroll, hence the strange balancing on the staircase. When she was like that scum of your son in laws killed Mycha cuz I asked him to fight, Ned was all remorse and was like, Ill buy you a new pet.

He marveled that she continued to keep the Syrio thing going, thinking it would be a quick fad that a child is sure to grow out of. 

Still, mega props to Ned here, probably my favorite Ned moment, next to raising Jon (untill he didnt). But really also, props to Jory. He truly found her a great teacher

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sure there's a possibility that Sansa may never marry again, but it does go against the foreshadowing. Ned promised she would marry a high lord who is "Brave, Gentle and Strong." Sansa has yet to meet the "Beast" to her "Beauty". Plus this line: 

Sounds like it will be subverted at some point, rather than a depressing fact about Sansa's life. Besides I believe that no matter how cynical Sansa gets a part of her will always want to marry for love and have children. To me there's something distasteful about the thought of Sansa accepting she will never get them. That is equivalent to Arya caving into what is expected of her as a Westerosi noble woman. Bran believing he's broken and that he, as a disabled boy, can't have a place in his society. Jon accepting that he's insignificant bastard and can't be a hero and a Stark. 

Foreshadowing is really fun to play with but I generally don't give it much weight. If you read AGOT, lots of things look like important foreshadowing except they're not as it's now impossible for those things to happen. And there's a self-confirming element to designating things as foreshadowing or not. Technically nothing is foreshadowing until that event comes to pass. 

There's this, too. Like LF, GRRM lost his 5 year gap. Like LF, GRRM calls himself a gardener. Like LF, GRRM thrives in chaotic environments - he's not a fan of rigid outlines. GRRM plants seeds, but not all of the fruits ripen. So consider that some of what looks like foreshadowing is really just a seed of possibility which may or may not ripen. 

AFFC Alayne II

He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear." 
 

I agree with your second paragraph and I definitely don't think GRRM will give us an ending that turns us all into alcoholics who don't the leave the bed for weeks, but some of his characters do have dark endings. 

[Lollygag]

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I didnt mean that at all. Just that he cared less then others lol. Or didnt give it much thought (surprise surprise). He wasnt truly plotting with his children like Doran but he wasn't all hold them close like Myrcella or Lord Robert, which isnt healthy either.

He certainly loved and cared for Arya, I think its because he saw Lyanna in her. As for Sansa, he was nice enough just didnt teach or help her or anything (and then Joff). Bran, idk how he coulda left him in the coma like that, Im sure he loved him, but damn. And then he straight up sent Jon to prison for life, but thats being a bad uncle not father lol

Reminds me of this passage. The father/lord juggling is tough.

AGOT Bran I

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell. 
 

 

[Elegant Woes]

@Lollygag I agree with you on that. Majority of the characters will most likely have a really dark ending. Didn't George say that a major family line will die out by the end of the series? We should expect some bloody and gruesome deaths in the upcoming books. The Starks and Samwell are the only ones I expect to be spared. 

[kissdbyfire]

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Course he did. He was all assholish in WF and then he made up that Nymeria story and had Mycha killed. Sansa told him this. Arya retold him, was like Joffs the worst. Ned agrees, keeps on truckin

Well, there’s a big difference between being an arsehole and being a murdering sadistic psycho. But yeah, I agree, to a point. The writing was on the wall, but Ned being Ned - a protector of children, and quite naive (just like Sansa  ), missed the warning signs. But I do think he really didn’t expect Joffrey to be quite as nasty as he turned out to be. 

52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah.

.

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

Right! I had all that swapped around in my addled brain. 

But I still think that, even though he hoped Arya would grow out of that phase eventually (can’t blame him, my dad made the same error in judgment  ), he still allowed her to train w/ Syrio, and that’s pretty good for Westerosi standards. 

[Elegant Woes]

Joffrey can be manipulative if he wants to. He knows how to play the gallant prince. So neither Sansa and Ned are that naive for not noticing Joffrey's awful side. 

[TedBear]

53 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And then he straight up sent Jon to prison for life, but thats being a bad uncle not father lol

Well, it was Jon who wanted to waste his life becoming a popsicle on the wall. Luckily for him, there will really be an invasion of zombies and monsters, to be really useful for him to be there, he will be a hero, these days he is the lord commander, not all bastards live so well (except that he is currently dead)