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[Nagini's Neville]

19 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics What Sansa was forced into with Tyrion is not a marriage. It's an act of war to humiliate the Starks and Tyrion wanted to use Sansa's body against her to steal her ancestral home. Don't you find that disgusting? Don't you see the terrible injustice that is forced on Sansa? For her to be in a marriage where the other party gains everything they wanted and she loses everything. How can you, as a Sansa fan, be okay with this? Don't you want Sansa to have the agency and power to decide for herself who she will marry? 

I think @Hugorfonics is a different kind of  sansa fan then you are. You think more like a protective mom about her and her future and want the best for her, but not everyone, who is a fan of a character thinks in those terms.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ideally. Like Jon and Jaime. Family Duty Honor.

Thats how marriage works for Westeros nobility. Hardly anyone has a say

big difference between an arranged and a forced marriage. And Tyrion is already an oath breaker to her family. So no need to up hold a vow to him.

[Nagini's Neville]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar and @Nagini's Neville

I like the discourse you're having.

I agree with you both that much of their dislike of one another and their prejudices are fueled by those who are rearing them and environment.

Mind you, I don't like Arya so much because "it's cool these days", but because her experiences with her peers as a child are similar to mine. When I was 7, we had to draw "what do you want to be later in life," and while every other girl in our class drew gender affirming professions, I drew a police woman with a skirt. I was tomboyish (though not a rough player; I did fence from my 7-12 though) and since my dad prefers women with short hair, I didn't have long hair until I was 16... and so, everybody who didn't know me, assumed I was a boy at first meeting (which annoyed me: I was totally fine being me, a girl). A shitty elementary teacher caused a long term ousting by peers at that same age: first I was of the "stupid class", but I proved them wrong easily, but the resentment caused the princesses of my class to look for other ways to shit on me - it became "I wasn't feminine enough" and "not pretty enough". The worst of course was the girl who used to be 2nd best in her grades on tests, until I did. And when I did wear a skirt, I'd be laughed at. I had no social issues before that, not with girls, not with boys of any "peer status". Even after that shitty teacher was long gone though, those peer issues became chronic until I was 15, at high school, and befriended two girls of a higher year during lunchtimes. Because of those elementary years, it took me until I was 27 to discover I was actually socially gifted, talented in forming groups of people around me and lead them. Sure, I made friends easy for years already, but a part of me was incapable of recognizing before that I had been the one creating those groups of friends, introducing them to one another, etc. Because of the remarks about me not being pretty enough and who did I believe I was to even dare to consider this or that boy attractive, I never believed I was attractive as a teen, and out of self-protection I revelled in the tomboy appearance (except for the long hair). I just didn't dare to wear a dress. I wanted to at times, and I would buy some rarely, but then never dared to go out with those. It took me until I was 27 to realize that when guys had previously told me they believed I was hot or attractive that they actually meant it (no, not a classic beauty, but more like Carey Mulligan), that a lot of men were just scared of approaching me. It's not by chance that I had a tribal swan tattooed on my leg when I finally did accept this to commemorate me coming into myself. 

It is this pain that Arya carries around from the get go that made me connect with her. I recognize her feelings, her frustrations, her talents, but also the easiness with which she befriends people and boys. And when I say I want to hug her, it's more to tell her, "hey, Arya, it's not always going to be like this."

Sansa though isn't the culprit in this. That is Jeyne Poole, and she does it for reasons that Arya doesn't realize: because she envies Arya's birth status and fears she might come between her friendship with Sansa. Before Arya came along and by the time Arya was old enough to run after her sister to be "included", Jeyne was closest to a sister that Sansa had. No matter what personality Arya would have had, no matter what her looks would have been, Jeyne would naturally regard her as a threat to her bond with Sansa, and thus behave and act to protect it. In Jeyne's case in that feudal society, Jeyne's bond is not just important for friendships, but for her chances for the future. Can there be any doubt that Septa Mordane would not have mentiond to Sansa within Jeyne's hearing that one day she might be a queen or a warden's wife? A castellan's daughter might make a better match than a commoner, but not necessarily a landed knight or minor lord with a keep or castle of her own. Being Sansa's unique friend however could open such gates. I sympathize with Jeyne even in that. It doesn't matter what reason people or peers cite, but it's an awful feeling to be told that you won't be desirable to a section of society for something outside of your powers - whether those are appearances or birth status.

And then suddenly there's this younger sister of Sansa who (as younger siblings are wont to do) would have searched them out to be included. Jeyne naturally would fear being replaced in the long run. And older siblings with other interests and abilities (including motoric ones) will find waggling toddlers running after them for attention quite annoying. It is normal for both Jeyne and Sansa to reject any of Arya's attempts to bond.

But it is an adult's task to make sure it doesn't become a cycle, let alone fuel it. Mordane certainly did. Arya's memory of Mordane's words to her mother about having the hands of a smoth burn in her brain like some of that shitty teacher's words to me did. I was rarely a child who would talk back and give retorts to adults, but when I had the chance I certainly did so with that man, though I was but 7. Managed to shut him up too. (The man attempted to mock me for drawing a police woman, for wasn't that more of a job for a boy, and I told him with a very specific Dutch term that what he was saying was gender bias. And no he didn't say it as a lead in to the subect of gender bias, because he never used my statement to expand on the subject. He just glared at me, clenched his teeth and ignored me the rest of the schoolyear).

Now, while I agree that Ned Stark should have had a heart-to-heart with Sansa as well, I understand where the mistake came from. And I wouldn't be so sure that Cat didn't have a heart-to-heart with Sansa at some point. In fact it's been hinted there was: when Sansa inquired whether Arya might be a bastard as well. We don't get the full conversation on it, just the glimpse in Sansa's memory. I get the impression that Sansa asked this at a time when Jeyne started to call Arya names and Sansa was at an age to be abhorred by having a clumsy toddler sister trying to trail her. From Jeyne's attempt to bring up Arya as a subject to gossip about (she'd seen her walking on her hands in the stables of the red keep), we also get a hint that Jeyne was repeating past behaviour. It's noticeable that Jeyne does this shortly after Sansa's response about Jeyne calling Lord Beric a hero, brave and gallant. And in fact, Sansa thinks the truths that I pointed out about Jeyne's chances of making a serious advantageous match at the same time.  And yes, Sansa keeps these thoughts to herself, but Jeyne is so tuned into being Sansa's pleasing companion (eventually mentioning lemoncakes) that she certainly heard the begrudgedness and doubt in Sansa's "I suppose so" only to then hear Sansa talk about the dream she had about her prince Joffrey. Jeyne doesn't mention Arya to please Sansa, though she may consciously believe so, but rather imo to vent her frustrations.

Anyway, I have no doubt that Sansa and Jeyne used to have a short period where they delighted in gossiping about Arya in a derogotary way, likely several years before the start of the books, and that made Sansa brave enough to ask her mother about Arya's birth status. Cat's answer is probably but a fragment of a longer talk about sisterhood, her being the older sister to set an example, etc. I do think Sansa curbed her behaviour towards Arya after that conversation. Sansa's objective behaviour during the stitching scene in Arya's first chapter is irreproachable. It's Jeyne who smirks. I doubt that Sansa was mean to Arya directly for long in the past. But alas, even if it were but a few instances, for Arya as the target, those few instances in her young life would have hurt her tremendously.

I agree that Arya doesn't resent Sansa for her talents, but because she gets the praise, whereas Arya is written off as having hands to shoe a horse and being publically humiliated by Mordane at every chance the woman has a chance, without ever hearing her mother defend her to the woman or hear her praise her. She gets a serious scolding by Cat after throwing Mordane's judgment back at her. Instead my parents were proud of me to correct that shitty teacher I had over the police drawing. I agree that Arya craves to be praised as well, but not just for talents. While it's true that Arya's a tomboy and doesn't want to or would ever be a little lady, she does wants to be recognized as a girl, as having female qualities. For me, her identity search isn't just "what job she will have" or "anti-marriage". It's also about reconciling her tomboyish pursuits as well as being recognized as feminine. That's why Ned's heart-to-heart was so powerful, when he compared her to Lyanna. It's the first time she's compared to a female example of whom she only has heard praise. That's why she liked the lady of Acorn Hall. On the surface it's about being called pretty, but on a deeper level it's a praise where a different type of femininity is praised.

And as much as it is sad that Ned never had such a heart to heart with Sansa, it's sad that Cat (who is a woman of action and in my mind not delicate, and therefore an excellent example for Arya just as well) never seems to have had a positive heart-to-heart with Arya, though she expressed warmth and respect about Arya to Sansa when she assured Sansa that Arya was trueborn.

I do think that it was an error by Cat and Ned to send Arya to KL at that age with such a history, not to avoid sending a "troublemaker" to KL, but because I think it would have been to Arya's benefit to remain at Winterfell. That would be the first time really that she would be the sole Stark daughter at the castle to whom other girls such as Beth would have to look for in guidance and without having a persistent reminder that she doesn't live up to her sister's abilties. I think that might actually have mellowed her out somewhat, as we see at Acorn Hall, and would have improved her relation with her mother (with Mordane absent). I know Cat loves Arya, but Arya clearly doesn't know that. She believes she can only disappoint her mother. Without Mordane running to Cat to scold Arya whenever Arya responds antagonistically after being picked on at each chance the woman gets, there would be far more moments where Cat could just be a mother to Arya.

And Sansa's own response to Jeyne bringing up Arya is in a sense a sign of maturing feelings towards Arya. Even if it's rejective at the surface, it's the first step in Sansa's own POV where she takes a step back from trying to correct or change Arya, and just let Arya be Arya for a while, allowing for Arya to have different pursuits and interests. She may not care for those, even abhor them, but it's not helpful to either of them at this point that Sansa is trying to be the big sister to set the example for Arya. Arya already has ingrained the belief that she cannot match up to her sister. It's just a painful reminder that she's sure to fail, when Sansa comes to fetch her to visit with the queen and Myrcella in that cart. And indeed for a 9 year old tomboy, Arya's just too young yet to be interested in courtly life. She has no interest in boys other than to whack sticks with then, let alone femininity beyond the desire that people recognize she's a girl. The shift towards this truly starts when she's getting closer to Gendry, not much yet in the beginning, but by aSoS, she's getting very sensitive and defensive about what he thinks of her in a dress. She betrays her negative beliefs about it by making sure the dress is ruined. But regrets it later, and although she doesn't like the dress the whores of the Peach put her in, she's actually quite ok with the purple dress with pearls that the lady of Acorn Hall has her wear after telling her she's pretty, and after she ruined the Acorn dress. And when she's 11, Arya betrays a healthy dose of interest in feminity, when she's basically fawning over the courtesans at Braavos. The way she gossips about this or that courtesan picking a new protege or the Black Swan buying something from her and saying some kind words to her is really not that different than Sansa and Jeyne discussing the gallantry of this and that knight at the tourney. The difference is that Sansa and Jeyne already know they're pretty and therefore have no need of recognition from other women over this, but by boys and men instead. Arya though craves such praise from the "sisterhood" first, before she can ever accept it from men or boys.

And I also agree that the constant praise that Sansa got in a way harmed her too. She has come to see herself as the good daughter who never does any wrong. She therefore is incapable of admiting to herself that she's not always good, long before she indulges herself in being as "wicked as Arya". Some of the things she says in KL did deserve a comment. Too bad Mordane scolds her by telling she's turning into Arya. It's an awful way to correct someone's behaviour, not just to Arya but to Sansa as well.

Omg that was amazing! as well as @Lyanna<3Rhaegar about the matter. The sisters relationship so interesting. More than any possible relationship, I want them to become really close in the future. I want Sansa to accept Arya and understand what it was really like for her growing up and that at no point she needed to change and appreciate her for her strengths. And I hope Arya's attitude towards Sansa will change then as well. They would make such a power couple. Ah I want that for all the Stark siblings

Your insight into Arya is impressive and I do agree with all of it. I absolutely love Arya for actually not bashing other girls (even though it would actually be understandable, if she did. They are the ones, who are telling her she is not good enough. That she doesn't says a lot about her) I hated, when they made her say " most girls are stupid" in the show. This is such a misunderstanding of her character. In the books she tells Jon that "the woman is also important", when he points out that Joff has the Lannisters sigil on his shield too.And she hates, when people call her a boy.

 

I totally understand how certain childhood experiences can scar you for life. And you keep thinking things about yourself for years even though there is no basis to them at all and they aren't true at all. Bullying is also so random. If you went to a different class with different students your experience, might have been probably totally different. Also Carey mulligan is a major beauty!

I can empathize a lot with Sansa's experience. I was a child model (not my idea). When ppl dislike that so many men are preying on Sansa, when she is still so young and taking advantage of her and say it's unrealistic, I can tell you, it's absolutely not!

Even in our society it's not. Being objectified so young, exposed to stuff you are not ready for and placing so much value into and being praised for something, that has absolutely nothing to do with how you are as a person or your actions, is really not good for you. It might make you arrogant. But it won't make you feel loved and appreciated, but looked at as sort of an empty shell. I can understand Sansa's wish to be loved for herself so much! I really hope she finds it!

I have dyslexia and just couldn't learn how to read and write as kid and it took until I was 14 that someone diagnosed it. So I was called stupid a lot. And because I was not getting better at it no matter, what I did, I also didn't think "being stupid" could be changed. And I also had stereotypical female interests and I have experienced that society often looks down on those as being silly and stupid, weak, shallow, not worthy of seeing value in them and as a consequence your opinion is not worthy to be considered. 

And I also was a major people pleaser, it took me forever to break free from it and realize, that I don't have to constantly do what other people are expecting of me. And that my judgment is also valid and enough. As a child I made a couple of bad decisions, because of it.

 Yeah, I also was kind of shallow and only attracted to pretty boys, but that was also the case, because there was so much value placed on attractiveness in my childhood, I believe. I got over it and now really don't care about looks anymore at all, or I just think a lot of differently looking people are very attractive.

 

So much to say to this still. I have to come back to it. I also have no time rn to do it justice.

 

[Lollygag]

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There isn't one example in your quotes of another sibling calling Jon bastard or half brother other than the instance with Robb, one time. Jon doesn't know their thoughts, so they can't hurt his feelings.

It makes no sense for Jon to reflect on Sansa calling him half brother if they all call him that. 

Sansa is in her own category in this regard and the text is clear about that. 

We have so few actual interactions depicted that it especially doesn't make sense to write their thoughts as one way, but then backtrack and them behave in a completely different way. It gets worse when you're dealing with little kids who aren't known for editing what comes out of their mouths. Add to that, Jon's recollections match Sansa's thoughts, Arya's word usage match her thoughts, so why the exception with Bran? Was that Robb the kid's only transgression in years and years despite growing up in a society with such a view of bastards and a mother who's almost worse? Nothing else ever, ever came up in all of that time together? Not believable. 

It's also not GRRM's style to write such Mayberry relationships and interactions. That Jon had idealic hunky-dory relationships with all of his sibs but Sansa isn't consistent with how he writes. He's messier than that. Case in point, Sansa tries to merge two very conflicting ideas of bastards in referring to Jon as half-brother I assume much more often than anyone else but not bastard brother, Arya shows all of the biases against bastardry that Sansa does, but she creates a split unique to Jon. Jon recalls a nasty exchange with Robb, yet I think it's very plausible that Robb married Jeyne because he feared a child going through what Jon went through. 

It makes a lot of sense for Jon to focus on Sansa. Jon recalls that this originates from her learning "bastard", no doubt from Catelyn like Robb did. Jon will never have the approval of Catelyn or any mother, but if Jon can ~earn~ acceptance from her mini-me in Sansa who so strives to emulate her society's ideal, than Jon would have managed something significant and not unlike how he describes his wanting to prove himself as good as a true son to Ned as I showed in this post linked below. Catelyn represents a mother's and a society's approval, but Sansa's approval is more accessible than Catelyn's. Ever notice this coincidence? Ned was surprised that Jon wanted to go into the NW. Nothing in Jon's thoughts showed previous consideration of the NW. Waymar is often compared to Jon by the readers. AFFC Alyane II: "Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. " Sansa's romances are about songs and hero-worship. What Jon wanted to be. Not a bastard. Hence why his disillusionment was so harsh. The NW was supposed to be his way to prove himself to those who didn't accept him all of the way, but it was reject hell instead. 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/156242-favorite-characters/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=8468016

Sorry if I'm rambling. Tried to edit but maybe failed. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I honestly can't remember in what context it got brought up in this thread but she gets singled out for it because she says it directly to Jon, while the rest of them don't. They are all aware of Jon's status, they just don't feel the need to say it right to him. Robb hurt him also. In a discussion about Jon & Robb I would imagine it would get brought up. Jon doesn't think badly of Robb either, he thinks very fondly of Robb except in this one instance. 

I think the hang up here is that these things get brought up in a discussion that is directly about how Sansa feels toward Jon. Paraphrasing:

Poster 1: Sansa isn't close with Jon, likely because of the way Cat thinks of & behaves toward him

Poster 2: Sansa doesn't think negatively toward Jon

P1: She only refers to him as half-brother

P2: But Jon doesn't think of Sansa

See what I mean? 

It isn't, at least for me, that I'm more or less upset about Sansa's interactions with Jon than I am the other way around it's just that this is what we were talking about. It wouldn't make sense for me to bring up Jon not thinking of Sansa (although I have said a couple times they don't think about each other much) in a discussion specifically about whether or not Sansa feels negatively toward Jon. 

Sure, I know where Sansa gets the idea from but the idea is wrong & bad. 

Yeah, but I don't think that was her issue with being bastard born. At any rate though I just used this to show her thoughts on being a bastard because the other poster said I was wrong to say Sansa doesn't think well of bastards in general. 

Sure, I think Sansa is growing up & shedding many of her ideas about society & how the world works & coming into her own. 

fair enough. Even though she probably didn't call him half brother to address him, it must have been significant enough, that Jon remembers being referred to that way by her.

Quote

 

I think the hang up here is that these things get brought up in a discussion that is directly about how Sansa feels toward Jon. Paraphrasing:

Poster 1: Sansa isn't close with Jon, likely because of the way Cat thinks of & behaves toward him

Poster 2: Sansa doesn't think negatively toward Jon

P1: She only refers to him as half-brother

P2: But Jon doesn't think of Sansa

See what I mean? 

It isn't, at least for me, that I'm more or less upset about Sansa's interactions with Jon than I am the other way around it's just that this is what we were talking about. It wouldn't make sense for me to bring up Jon not thinking of Sansa (although I have said a couple times they don't think about each other much) in a discussion specifically about whether or not Sansa feels negatively toward Jon.

 

Yeah sorry, I was more complaining in general, that I find it weird, that I don't see ppl being upset over it with Jon. At least I only see it rarely mentioned. 

Quote

Sure, I know where Sansa gets the idea from but the idea is wrong & bad.

agreed  

Quote

Yeah, but I don't think that was her issue with being bastard born. At any rate though I just used this to show her thoughts on being a bastard because the other poster said I was wrong to say Sansa doesn't think well of bastards in general. 

why not? I definitely think ppl's perception played a big role for a people pleaser like her. She knows after all that Jon is not specifically sinful. But yeah maybe you are right. Sorry for making you repeat things- I know that can be frustrating.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

fair enough. Even though she probably didn't call him half brother to address him, it must have been significant enough, that Jon remembers being referred to that way by her

Yeah I agree. I'm sure she doesn't say "Hey Half Brother!" But just must refer to him that way enough that he remembers it. 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah sorry, I was more complaining in general, that I find it weird, that I don't see ppl being upset over it with Jon. At least I only see it rarely mentioned

No worries! No need to apologize at all. You're right, I haven't seen people complaining about that with Jon either. I don't often see Jon's feelings & thoughts toward Sansa discussed other than in the Jonsa threads, but it's definitely a talking point. 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

why not? I definitely think ppl's perception played a big role for a people pleaser like her. She knows after all that Jon is not specifically sinful. But yeah maybe you are right. Sorry for making you repeat things- I know that can be frustrating

You don't have to apologize to me seriously I enjoy discussing things with you & I know you are never trying to be rude or disrespectful to me. 

I could be completely wrong about this but my thought process is that her perception of what a bastard means probably comes from in & around WF & more specifically from Cat. We don't hear from anyone around there that bastards are "lusty" so I just assumed that wasn't what Sansa was thinking when she was concerned with being a bastard. I really have no evidence for it & most certainly could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. 

[Hugorfonics]

8 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

 and she loses everything. 

Whatd she lose?

8 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics What Sansa was forced into with Tyrion is not a marriage. It's an act of war to humiliate the Starks and Tyrion wanted to use Sansa's body against her to steal her ancestral home. Don't you find that disgusting? Don't you see the terrible injustice that is forced on Sansa? For her to be in a marriage where the other party gains everything they wanted and she loses everything. How can you, as a Sansa fan, be okay with this? Don't you want Sansa to have the agency and power to decide for herself who she will marry? 

Whom you're describing sounds way more like Edmure then Sansa. Whos still loyal to Roslin. The RfuckingW. If Edmure can sympathize with his spouse despite her familys horrific betrayal and massacre, then anyone can

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

big difference between an arranged and a forced marriage. 

Lysa wouldnt agree.

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

. And Tyrion is already an oath breaker to her family. So no need to up hold a vow to him.

Come on. Imp was on the IT. Thusly he was speaking with the kings voice. Robb and Cat procrastinated, when Cat finally understood the correct measure to take it was to late, there was another kings voice on the throne.

Tyrion had no power to return Sansa, especially since he was locked up when Jaime was returned by Cat. Also Cat was dead (was lol)

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think @Hugorfonics is a different kind of  sansa fan then you are. You think more like a protective mom about her and her future and want the best for her, but not everyone, who is a fan of a character thinks in those terms.

 

Whats the best for her? To choose a spouse like Doran and raise puppies named Robb and Bran?

But really, she is the daughter of the North. Whats the best for the North? To defeat the Boltons, Others and to release Winterfell from KL and the Westerlands tyrannic grip. 

Sansa has a responsibility, hell duty, to the realm. Sansa is the reason why the realm is in shambles, she is why her father died and her brother fought and lost the war.

The realm needs to be mended, and Sansa is the seamstress who must do it. She'll need help though, and since her spouse is on the other side of the spectrum, go get em gurl

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@sweetsunray & @Nagini's Neville great posts! It's crazy how our life experiences affect so much, even down to our favorite character in a book. 

I've had closer to SweetSunray's experience & still struggle today with not feeling "feminine" enough. Like her I wanted to be able to wear dresses some times but was always scared I would get made fun of. I didn't wear make-up or "do" my hair until I was an adult because I always thought people would talk about me or make fun of me. Like look at that "boyish" girl trying to dress up & make herself look pretty, what a joke! I don't know how much of that was in my head & how much of it was actually the way people acted/treated me but I finally got to the point where I didn't care anymore (mostly) The weirdest things stick with me. I'm the eldest of 4 children. I have 2 younger sisters & our brother is the youngest. We grew up with not a lot of money & we didn't get new things other than our on birthday & christmas. At Christmas though, our mom went crazy! We were always in awe of how she managed to get us so much. Because there were 3 girls she would often get us things that didn't necessarily "match" but that were similar. She might get us all a shirt for instance as one of our presents. I always got the blue or green shirt. My sisters always got the pink & purple shirts. I seriously thought this was because my mom knew I wasn't as girly or as pretty as my sisters. As an adult I was shopping with my youngest sister for her 3 girls one day. (She has 3 just like my mom but no boy) I noticed she was picking out things like my mom did. She got them all beach bags & got her oldest a blue one, middle a purple one, youngest a pink one. She got them insulated cups & again got her oldest a blue/green one & the other two pink & purple. I told her how I felt when I was younger & our mom always got me the blue one & asked her why she got her oldest the blue one every time. She was kind of baffled & said she never really thought about it & that she was just trying to get them different colors so they could tell them apart. She said she associated pink & purple with younger, littler girls & got her oldest the blue one because she thought it was more "grown up". It gave me a different outlook on things. I never asked my mom why she got me the blue stuff & she passed away in January of last year. I did find out as an adult that one of my mom's favorite colors is blue. 

Unlike SweetSunray I was a "rough player" I grew up with 3 older, male cousins & loved wrestling & getting dirty & riding four wheelers etc.  So yeah, I sympathize & relate with Arya quite a bit. 

I think we all agree Sansa is not the culprit in making Arya feel bad. It's really a shame that an adult - not just any adult - but their Septa says the things she does about Arya. I don't think she probably means to do the things she is, she is narrow-minded & just cannot comprehend what is "wrong" with Arya. She never stopped to think that there is nothing wrong with her, she is just her own person. 

I like what SS said about Cat having a "heart to heart" with Arya because it could have helped her immensely & I've never thought of it. I would imagine the reason to be something similar as Ned's. Cat probably looks at Arya & thinks she so strong, so independent, so tough. She thought she didn't need to worry about Arya because Arya could handle it. 

I agree it was a mistake to send Arya to KL for the same reasons & because Sansa going alone would have allowed her some "me" time as well. They both needed it I think. I want the girls to have a great relationship & I think they will. When they come back together they will have experienced so much & the other will be "home" to them. They will have grown further apart as in their differences but also closer together in being able to see each other for who they truly are & not the silly things they did as little kids. 

I'm truly sorry for each of your childhood traumas. It makes a lot of sense, given your history, NN, that you would be much more affected by the "stupid" than the horse-face & that you didn't view stupid as something that could be changed. I thoroughly enjoy our conversations & you have given me so much insight into Sansa & why she feels the way she feels & does the things she does. I can still see hints of the "people pleaser" in  you in your writings. That's not a bad thing at all though. It's nice to converse with someone who actually cares what the other person is saying & isn't out to "hurt" you via your favorite character. Not that all posters do that, they don't. 

We were all attracted to "pretty boys" as little girls. Well, most of us anyway. We were shallow because little girls & boys are shallow. We haven't built that depth yet but most of us get there. 

One day we should start a thread analyzing solely Sansa & Arya's relationship & compare & contrast their similarities & differences. I think that would be an amazing discussion. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa is in her own category in this regard and the text is clear about that. 

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry if I jumbled that a little. I get rambling sometimes & make sense to myself but not so much to someone else LOL 

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

We have so few actual interactions depicted that it especially doesn't make sense to write their thoughts as one way, but then backtrack and them behave in a completely different way. It gets worse when you're dealing with little kids who aren't known for editing what comes out of their mouths. Add to that, Jon's recollections match Sansa's thoughts, Arya's word usage match her thoughts, so why the exception with Bran? Was that Robb the kid's only transgression in years and years despite growing up in a society with such a view of bastards and a mother who's almost worse? Nothing else ever, ever came up in all of that time together? Not believable.

For sure. No, I agree it's not believable that this is the only transgression that ever came up in regards to Jon being a bastard. It is likely just the transgression that stuck with Jon. 

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

t's also not GRRM's style to write such Mayberry relationships and interactions. That Jon had idealic hunky-dory relationships with all of his sibs but Sansa isn't consistent with how he writes. He's messier than that. Case in point, Sansa tries to merge two very conflicting ideas of bastards in referring to Jon as half-brother I assume much more often than anyone else but not bastard brother, Arya shows all of the biases against bastardry that Sansa does, but she creates a split unique to Jon. Jon recalls a nasty exchange with Robb, yet I think it's very plausible that Robb married Jeyne because he feared a child going through what Jon went through.

Yeah, I don't think he had hunky-dory relationships with all of his siblings except Sansa. I think it's more a case of all siblings fight but often, when there are several of them, there is one that clashes especially hard with another or one that appears to be almost completely opposite of another. I think that's probably the case with Sansa & Jon. For what it's worth I do think Sansa is trying to be "Politically correct" in calling him half-brother, rather than bastard. She is nothing if not polite. I agree in regards to Arya & Robb. Arya knows that bastard is a "bad word" & uses it to hurt & lash out. She doesn't use that with Jon because she loves him & doesn't want to hurt him or lash out. Robb, as the oldest, likely has more understanding in regards to the tribulations Jon faces as a bastard. Couple that with the apparent "shame" on the honorable Ned Starks honor & it's completely understandable why Robb doesn't want to father a bastard. 

8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It makes a lot of sense for Jon to focus on Sansa. Jon recalls that this originates from her learning "bastard", no doubt from Catelyn like Robb did. Jon will never have the approval of Catelyn or any mother, but if Jon can ~earn~ acceptance from her mini-me in Sansa who so strives to emulate her society's ideal, than Jon would have managed something significant and not unlike how he describes his wanting to prove himself as good as a true son to Ned as I showed in this post linked below. Catelyn represents a mother's and a society's approval, but Sansa's approval is more accessible than Catelyn's. Ever notice this coincidence? Ned was surprised that Jon wanted to go into the NW. Nothing in Jon's thoughts showed previous consideration of the NW. Waymar is often compared to Jon by the readers. AFFC Alyane II: "Bronze Yohn knows me," she reminded him. "He was a guest at Winterfell when his son rode north to take the black." She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl. " Sansa's romances are about songs and hero-worship. What Jon wanted to be. Not a bastard. Hence why his disillusionment was so harsh. The NW was supposed to be his way to prove himself to those who didn't accept him all of the way, but it was reject hell instead. 

This is quite interesting. It may be that Sansa calling Jon half brother affects him more deeply because it's her approval he seeks. I've never made the connection between Sansa's songs & Jon's wanting to be like that but you are exactly right. He likely wanted to join the NW because he thought this was his opportunity to be a hero despite being a bastard. Very good insight. 

[The Commentator]

On 1/9/2020 at 11:52 AM, TedBear said:

I think Gilly must have gotten off the ship sometime.

Pity. It would have been fun to put that wildling in Meereen.  

[TedBear]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Pity. It would have been fun to put that wildling in Meereen

Sam's reaction would be very funny. 

[AryaRegina]

1. Arya Stark
2. Bran Stark
3. Jon Snow
4. Gendry
5. Eddard Stark
6. Catelyn Stark
7. Meera Reed
8. Daenerys Targaryen
9. Cersei Lannister
10. Robb Stark, Shireen Baratheon, Missandei, Edmure Tully, Brienne of Tarth

This was difficult, I'm sure about the first 4 characters (though #2-#4 might change places depending on the day), the rest I'm not sure about, since I don't really think and talk about them as much as I do the other 4.
Some, like Cersei, I like as a character more than I like them as a person, she's interesting to read about with all her cruelties and pettiness (but there's also enough to sympathize with her about, so she's not a one dimensional villain either).
I like Arianne and Ellaria as well, but I've only read the entirety of AFFC/ADWD once, so I don't really remember them well enough to add them to my favourite characters.

[Nagini's Neville]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lysa wouldnt agree.

Yep, that was bad. Doesn't mean Sansa has to be wronged as well, just because Lysa was wronged. 

I'm just not in favor of people having to uphold vows to people, who don't deserve it, especially, if those vows where forced out of you and the other party is aware of that.

I'm also in favor of jaime killing the mad king and breaking his vow to him. So we might just fundamentally disagree. I admire and respect ppl more, who act on what their conscience tells them and not blindly follow, what a bad person orders them to do, just because they swore an oath to them one time.

[Raksha 2014]

My ten favorite characters in ASoIaF, in order:

1.  Ned Stark - I will always gravitate towards characters who are strong and compassionate as well as honorable.  I loved Ned and was saddened by his death (me and the Starks and most of the North)...

2. Sansa Stark - I strongly identify with Sansa - much of my childhood had similarities with hers - spoiled and loved and very naive as a preteen and early teen.  I also trusted an authority figure in my parents' absence, and was betrayed by her (I was ten) and suffered for it, though on a much smaller and more petty scale than Sansa did (and no animals were threatened or harmed!).  Sansa is far from perfect; but I find her observations interesting, enjoy watching her learn more and more of the cruel world she lives in and try to navigate her way through it.  One thing I like about her is that Sansa does not lose her capacity for empathy, despite her fear and suffering.  When we last saw her in A Feast For Crows, Sansa was facing a moral crossroads; but it is unsure whether she has yet crossed that line as far as actively and knowingly aiding Littlefinger in his plans to kill her annoying cousin Robin.  (Sansa is between a rock and a hard place here.  Littlefinger is almost certainly her only protection against Cersei and a death sentence; and if Sansa crosses him in the matter of his plans for Robin, she could find herself blamed for Robin's poisoning herself.  But if she passively goes along with Littlefinger in implementing a slow death for Robin, rather than trying to delay it, or at least objecting to Littlefinger himself, that would be a step toward the dark side for Sansa).

3. Oberyn Martell - I like both book and show versions of this very charismatic characters; but in the book, I wanted desperately for him to live and accomplish at least some of his goals.  Oberyn's a deadly fighter and a Renaissance man; and wants all his daughters to be able to do what they want to do in life, not just catch politically advantageous husbands.  He's the snake and Doran's the grass; and Dorne is much poorer without him...

4.  Davos Seaworth - Davos is a man who manages to be honorable, compassionate, and practical; which is an amazing feat in Westeros.  I hope he continues to survive and can eventually go home to his wife and their remaining children.

5.  Sandor Clegane - a trainwreck of a character, but extremely well written.  I'm pretty sure that Sandor has survived, though "the Hound" may not have done so.  Sandor is extremely conflicted, there is good in him, but it's buried under years of bitterness and self-loathing.  He would need to grow up a lot before he could undertake a path to redemption; and I'm not sure he wants to be redeemed. I hope we see him again; I think he will encounter (A) Sansa, (B) Gregor or whatever he is now, in the future.

6.  Olenna Tyrell - Charter member of the Planetos Tough Old Broads Club.  She's a very strong woman who can be ruthless in the defense and advancement of her family.  And of course she has some great lines.

7.  Genna Lannister - another member of the Tough Old Broads Club, though Genna is far from as old as Olenna.  She was married against her will into the weaselly Frey clan, yet remains a Lannister and one who speaks her mind, at least to other Lannisters, and is an intelligent, forceful woman.  I wish we could see more of her.

8.  Barristan Selmy - He put the "H" in Honorable and the "K" in "Knight".  He's one of the greatest knights (and fighters) in the history of Westeros, and is also intelligent and (when he can be) compassionate.  Joffrey's loss is Daenerys' gain.

9.  Brynden Tully - another tough old Knight.  He's a great fighter and the strongest man in House Tully.   Let's hope he survives to see his House return and reclaim Riverrun.  

10.  Dolorous Edd - who wouldn't adore this melancholy Crow?  I love his sense of humor and I pray that he survives the wars to come, though the TV show doesn't give me much hope...

[Rose of Red Lake]

18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa's romances are about songs and hero-worship. What Jon wanted to be. Not a bastard.

Perfect closure for both would be for Jon to be Sansa's hero, and for him to gain her approval as a Stark. When she says "there are no heroes, in real life the monster's win," Sansa has gone off the deep end of cynicism. Her faith needs to be restored by someone--if it's him it has wonderful narrative coherence. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Perfect closure for both would be for Jon to be Sansa's hero, and for him to gain her approval as a Stark. When she says "there are no heroes, in real life the monster's win," Sansa has gone off the deep end of cynicism. Her faith needs to be restored by someone--if it's him it has wonderful narrative coherence. 

I would love this. As long as there is no Jonsa involved. 

[Lollygag]

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Perfect closure for both would be for Jon to be Sansa's hero, and for him to gain her approval as a Stark. When she says "there are no heroes, in real life the monster's win," Sansa has gone off the deep end of cynicism. Her faith needs to be restored by someone--if it's him it has wonderful narrative coherence. 

GRRM's track record on perfect closures thus far is very, very bad. Just sayin'. 

And I think Sansa needs to realize that she can be a hero. She doesn't need to sit around and wait for one. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yep, that was bad. Doesn't mean Sansa has to be wronged as well, just because Lysa was wronged. 

No doubt. I was just trying to say theres little difference between an arranged and forced marriage. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm just not in favor of people having to uphold vows to people, who don't deserve it, especially, if those vows where forced out of you and the other party is aware of that.

I'm also in favor of jaime killing the mad king and breaking his vow to him. So we might just fundamentally disagree. I admire and respect ppl more, who act on what their conscience tells them and not blindly follow, what a bad person orders them to do, just because they swore an oath to them one time.

I agree. Be master of your destiny, dont let anything hold you back. (And fuck Aerys lol, Jaime did the only thing he could to survive) (Ive never been in favor of the NW strict order)

If getting back together with her husband is the incorrect political or personal move then she shouldn't do it, however to pretend that her husband never existed without taking into account his political attributes or the fact that Tyrions a (semi lol) good person who has his wifes interests at heart. Plus itd totally go against her mother's words

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

And I think Sansa needs to realize that she can be a hero. She doesn't need to sit around and wait for one. 

Facts!

[Nagini's Neville]

19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would love this. As long as there is no Jonsa involved. 

Oh, no opening pandora's box again haha

I wouldn't mind it. I just don't understand where the idea comes from.  If it could be Jon, why not fAegon f.e.?

Do you ship Sansa with anyone?

Man, I wanted to work LOL

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM's track record on perfect closures thus far is very, very bad. Just sayin'. 

And I think Sansa needs to realize that she can be a hero. She doesn't need to sit around and wait for one. 

I think all the times she's survived alone, on her own merits, proves that she isn't waiting around. But Jon did cut off Janos Slynt's head, something she couldn't do. It will be interesting to see if there's something else in store.