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[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't remember any of them calling him 'bastard brother' if they do then it's really odd for Jon to reflect that Sansa calls him half brother.

Bran uses both terms. 

Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer.

"Ass," Jon muttered, low enough so Greyjoy did not hear. He put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. "You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Bran gave the pup a quick nervous stroke, then turned as Jon said, "Here you go." His half brother put a second pup into his arms. "There are five of them." Bran sat down in the snow and hugged the wolf pup to his face. Its fur was soft and warm against his cheek.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

It would never be the way it had been, he knew. The crow had tricked him into flying, but when he woke up he was broken and the world was changed. They had all left him, his father and his mother and his sisters and even his bastard brother Jon.

Who are they mourning now? Had some enemy slain the King in the North, who used to be his brother Robb? Had his bastard brother Jon Snow fallen from the Wall? Had his mother died, or one of his sisters? Or was this something else, as maester and septon and Old Nan seemed to think?

"Then let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir," Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon.

 

 

Arya usually only refers to Jon by his name or brother, but she makes an exception for Jon which she doesn't make for others. 

AGOT Arya I

"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. 

ACOK Arya II

Arya was lost. "Why should she want him?"

The Bull scowled at her. "Why should she want you? You're nothing but a little gutter rat!"

"Well, you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Or maybe he was only pretending to be a bastard boy. "What's your true name?" 

"Gendry," he said, like he wasn't quite sure.

 

Robb really rubbed Jon's face in his status. Years later, the recalled memory sends Jon into a blind rage. 

 

ASOS Jon XII

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." 

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?" 

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’d say the Sansa - Tyrion marriage is similar to Jaime swearing a vow to Cat at sword point while being a PoW. 

Yeah, I'm not saying murder is as bad as forced marriage, just that both of it is an act of war against the Starks. It both belongs to the same category of actions. And done with similar methods. force and deception 

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, I'm not saying murder is as bad as forced marriage, just that both of it is an act of war against the Starks. It both belongs to the same category of actions. And done with similar methods. force and deception 

Yup. Just wanted to bring up a different example of something that is done “in sight of gods and men” yadda yadda, but has no real value because it’s just plain wrong. And in this context, being forcibly married is similar to being forced to swear a vow at sword point. 

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup. Just wanted to bring up a different example of something that is done “in sight of gods and men” yadda yadda, but has no real value because it’s just plain wrong. And in this context, being forcibly married is similar to being forced to swear a vow at sword point. 

And what is so interesting in Jaime's case is that he's the first to claim "you have to vow this to that person and then that to another," and yet he does try to uphold the vows he swore at Cat's sword point, even after she's dead.

Meanwhile Tyrion promised and vowed to Sansa he'd return her, voluntarily, but forgot about it almost soon after he mentioned it.

[Nagini's Neville]

14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bran uses both terms. 

Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer.

"Ass," Jon muttered, low enough so Greyjoy did not hear. He put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. "You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Bran gave the pup a quick nervous stroke, then turned as Jon said, "Here you go." His half brother put a second pup into his arms. "There are five of them." Bran sat down in the snow and hugged the wolf pup to his face. Its fur was soft and warm against his cheek.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

It would never be the way it had been, he knew. The crow had tricked him into flying, but when he woke up he was broken and the world was changed. They had all left him, his father and his mother and his sisters and even his bastard brother Jon.

Who are they mourning now? Had some enemy slain the King in the North, who used to be his brother Robb? Had his bastard brother Jon Snow fallen from the Wall? Had his mother died, or one of his sisters? Or was this something else, as maester and septon and Old Nan seemed to think?

"Then let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir," Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon.

 

 

Arya usually only refers to Jon by his name or brother, but she makes an exception for Jon which she doesn't make for others. 

AGOT Arya I

"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. 

ACOK Arya II

Arya was lost. "Why should she want him?"

The Bull scowled at her. "Why should she want you? You're nothing but a little gutter rat!"

"Well, you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Or maybe he was only pretending to be a bastard boy. "What's your true name?" 

"Gendry," he said, like he wasn't quite sure.

 

Robb really rubbed Jon's face in his status. Years later, the recalled memory sends Jon into a blind rage. 

 

ASOS Jon XII

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." 

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?" 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I always think it's kind of unfair, that Sansa always gets singled out for being aware of Jon's status. Because all of them are except for Arya. I guess it might have to do with the fact, that we don't have any examples of positive interactions between them. And that she refers to him as such at times to other ppl (she wouldn't call him half-brother, but Jon) is probably extra painful for him. But Jon also doesn't think badly of Sansa except for being referred to as "half-borther", but his memory of Robb, pointing out he is a bastard, is also painful to him. 

And than I think it is unfair, that readers are more upset about Sansa referring to Jon as bastard-brother and half-brother, than about Jon not thinking once how Sansa is doing in her marriage to Tyrion, not even after Tyrion killed his father, does he ask himself what could happened to her now. He only thinks of Tyrion, with whom he only spend a couple of days with. He only thinks, that he couldn't believe Tyrion capable of such an act. And Sansa is on his mind somehow, since he constantly tells Stannis, that WF belongs to her.

Bastards are born out of sin, therefore must be sinful themselves. And all kinds of negative character traits are associated with them. This society's perception of them.

I think, that Sansa doesn't want to be a bastard is more connected to being afraid of people's perception, than being snobbish towards bastards herself. She doesn't look down or think badly of Mya Stone, I got the impression she had admiration for her.

Mya is actually kind of an Arya type and while other people call her half a mule (Miranda and Lothor) Sansa doesn't agree or speak badly of Mya. She actually thinks about Mya's future and picks in her thoughts a man for her, who likes Mya and Sansa thinks of a good and honest person.

And she was right being afraid to be a bastard, because the first night of her being one she got sexually assaulted by Marillion, because "there’s no wench half so lusty as one bastard born.", that's what he says to her.

 

 

 

[chrisdaw]

As painful as Sansa fans are now, they're going to make this place so much fun when Sansa becomes Cersei in the next book.

What I wonder is if they'll turn on GRRM for it, or keep apologising for her.

[Nagini's Neville]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Woah. Sophie Turner? Natalie Dormer? Emilia Fucking Clarke! 

The debate i read was about Asha. For some reason her actress wasn't as hot as someone imagined, because they were so attracted to her in the books. Even though as I recall she was never described as a great beauty. She had a nose to big for her face.

[Nagini's Neville]

18 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

As painful as Sansa fans are now, they're going to make this place so much fun when Sansa becomes Cersei in the next book.

What I wonder is if they'll turn on GRRM for it, or keep apologising for her.

I guess you are taking directly to me sir. I think I'll do neither. I have already thought about how I would feel about her, if she is part of poising sweet robin, became power-hungry like ppl are suggesting. It would definitely influence my opinion on her. I would probably go back look for signs and reinterpret some of her earlier behavior. The way that some Tyrion fans do now.

But I actually think you should reread some Sansa chapters, because she just doesn't have any of  Cersei's prominent character traits, despite being abused so much she has not turned vengeful and she is also not power hungry. Rn she only wants to marry for love.

Cersei, without being abused had already murdered a little girl as a child and abused baby Tyrion. So the only way sansa could turn into cersei would be for Qyburn to put a new head on her.

Sorry for being a source of pain, I suggest not reading my posts  

[chrisdaw]

18 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I guess you are taking directly to me sir.

Nah, well yes but there's a thousand of you and I don't really read it any more.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Nah, well yes but there's a thousand of you and I don't really read it any more.

good   People are catching on

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So you need to honor vows that were forced out of you?

Ideally. Like Jon and Jaime. Family Duty Honor.

Thats how marriage works for Westeros nobility. Hardly anyone has a say

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

. Sansa didn't go around for years and years saying things like, "my half brother, would you please pass the salt?" Think about living your entire childhood only referring to your sibs and playmates as "my brother" or "my sister" and nothing else. It's not possible and frankly sounds kinda psycho. 

Lol word. Especially when she's got 4 brothers. Either way though, she says it enough for Jon to think its predominant.

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But Jon is her half-brother, as far as she knows. Why should she call him brother when he isn't? And when she does think of him as "bastard half-brother", doesn't it simply conform to her understanding of reality with regard to Jon?

I'm kinda perplexed how it can be "pretty messed up" that Sansa refers to him in perfectly correct and accurate terms. As far as she knows.

Jon is her brother, as Alayne thinks. Halfbrother is perfectly correct and accurate but I think its a messed up way to predominantly refer to your brother. Itd be like calling Bran your broken brother, perfectly accurate but not nice

[Elegant Woes]

@Hugorfonics Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe Sansa should stay in a marriage she was forced into at sword point at the age of twelve? A marriage that Sansa was so desperate to get out of she considered suicide if her escape plan with Dontos didn't work. If you truly believe these things than I don't know what to say. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Except that to her Jon is less than her and her true-born siblings, according to the society Sansa is growing up in. Everything in her culture has pounded ideas of correct behavior into her head and she doesn't question them, mainly because she gets praise and admiration the more she conforms to them. She is acting and thinking as any noblewoman in her world is expected - indeed, required - to act and think

Sure. Women are viewed as less than men also but it doesn't make me wrong to say that's a crap view & blatantly wrong. 

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Forgive me, but we don't know that. It's not clear that Sansa isn't particularly fond of bastards either. She thinks they are different than true-born people, that the difference is immutable but I haven't seen anything in the story to suppose that that automatically equates to not particularly fond. She's not particularly fond of Jon, but that's just as much because they have few no common interests and are being raised very differently due to their genders. 

She is "aghast" at the thought of pretending to be a bastard herself. 

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

She struggles with being a bastard because being a bastard is difficult. Losing her status as a noblewoman is difficult. Overcoming her training and upbringing is difficult. I'm not sure it has anything to do with her feelings or lack thereof for Jon.

But this is before she has a chance to struggle with being a bastard. She is aghast at the thought of it. 

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Absolutely it takes a toll on Jon and I cannot (would never) argue that it doesn't. But just to be clear: Catelyn is not his mother. Jon was forced on her, she had no choice whatever about him being in her household and he symbolically represents something extremely painful to her, both personally and publicly. From her point of view, why should she be a mother to Jon? From her point of view, she doesn't owe him anything

Jon didn't force himself on her & he can hardly be blamed; he was just an infant. Catelyn is the adult here & it's not that I necessarily think she had to be his mother but she certainly could have treated him with some resemblance of kindness. Her issues are with Ned & the things he did. It isn't fair to take those things out on an innocent child. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Compare Jon's memories of Catelyn with that one of Sansa. If Sansa treated him as Cat did, I'd guess that recollection of Jon's would be something other than as benign as it is in the 

Sorry missed this in the first post. I've very specifically said, twice, that Sansa does not treat him like Cat does. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Bran uses both terms. 

Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer.

"Ass," Jon muttered, low enough so Greyjoy did not hear. He put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. "You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Bran gave the pup a quick nervous stroke, then turned as Jon said, "Here you go." His half brother put a second pup into his arms. "There are five of them." Bran sat down in the snow and hugged the wolf pup to his face. Its fur was soft and warm against his cheek.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

It would never be the way it had been, he knew. The crow had tricked him into flying, but when he woke up he was broken and the world was changed. They had all left him, his father and his mother and his sisters and even his bastard brother Jon.

Who are they mourning now? Had some enemy slain the King in the North, who used to be his brother Robb? Had his bastard brother Jon Snow fallen from the Wall? Had his mother died, or one of his sisters? Or was this something else, as maester and septon and Old Nan seemed to think?

"Then let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir," Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon.

 

 

Arya usually only refers to Jon by his name or brother, but she makes an exception for Jon which she doesn't make for others. 

AGOT Arya I

"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. 

ACOK Arya II

Arya was lost. "Why should she want him?"

The Bull scowled at her. "Why should she want you? You're nothing but a little gutter rat!"

"Well, you're nothing but a bastard boy!" Or maybe he was only pretending to be a bastard boy. "What's your true name?" 

"Gendry," he said, like he wasn't quite sure.

 

Robb really rubbed Jon's face in his status. Years later, the recalled memory sends Jon into a blind rage. 

 

ASOS Jon XII

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." 

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?" 

There isn't one example in your quotes of another sibling calling Jon bastard or half brother other than the instance with Robb, one time. Jon doesn't know their thoughts, so they can't hurt his feelings.

It makes no sense for Jon to reflect on Sansa calling him half brother if they all call him that. 

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Hugorfonics Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe Sansa should stay in a marriage she was forced into at sword point at the age of twelve? A marriage that Sansa was so desperate to get out of she considered suicide if her escape plan with Dontos didn't work? 

Yup. Marriages dont always start perfectly. 

Quote

"I am told your wife is pretty. She'd have to be, for you to bed her while your sister and your king were being murdered."

"I never knew." Edmure licked his cracked lips. "There were fiddlers outside the bedchamber . . ."

"And Lady Roslin was distracting you."

"She . . . they made her do it, Lord Walder and the rest. Roslin never wanted . . . she wept, but I thought it was . . ."

Sansa was unhappy then. Shes unhappy now and perhaps if she wasnt told that her husbands dead shed seek his solace 

Quote

Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well.

Which her husband would totally give 

Quote

Yet wherever Sansa was and whatever her part in this might have been, she remained his wife. He had wrapped the cloak of his protection about her shoulders, though he'd had to stand on a fool's back to do it.

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I always think it's kind of unfair, that Sansa always gets singled out for being aware of Jon's status. Because all of them are except for Arya. I guess it might have to do with the fact, that we don't have any examples of positive interactions between them. And that she refers to him as such at times to other ppl (she wouldn't call him half-brother, but Jon) is probably extra painful for him. But Jon also doesn't think badly of Sansa except for being referred to as "half-borther", but his memory of Robb, pointing out he is a bastard, is also painful to him. 

And than I think it is unfair, that readers are more upset about Sansa referring to Jon as bastard-brother and half-brother, than about Jon not thinking once how Sansa is doing in her marriage to Tyrion, not even after Tyrion killed his father, does he ask himself what could happened to her now. He only thinks of Tyrion, with whom he only spend a couple of days with. He only thinks, that he couldn't believe Tyrion capable of such an act. And Sansa is on his mind somehow, since he constantly tells Stannis, that WF belongs to her.

Bastards are born out of sin, therefore must be sinful themselves. And all kinds of negative character traits are associated with them. This society's perception of them.

I think, that Sansa doesn't want to be a bastard is more connected to being afraid of people's perception, than being snobbish towards bastards herself. She doesn't look down or think badly of Mya Stone, I got the impression she had admiration for her.

Mya is actually kind of an Arya type and while other people call her half a mule (Miranda and Lothor) Sansa doesn't agree or speak badly of Mya. She actually thinks about Mya's future and picks in her thoughts a man for her, who likes Mya and Sansa thinks of a good and honest person.

And she was right being afraid to be a bastard, because the first night of her being one she got sexually assaulted by Marillion, because "there’s no wench half so lusty as one bastard born.", that's what he says to her.

 

 

 

Bold 1: Arya's view is also complicated though in that rather than reconciling conflicting information like Sansa, Arya simply disconnected the information when it comes to Jon. Arya is afraid of being a bastard, so much so that she needs comforting (she was very young at that time) and she hurls out bastard as an insult against Gendry. She knows Jon's a bastard, but … I don't know. Maybe a psychologist can explain what she's doing here. Willful blindness? I dunno.

Bold 2: GRRM is often rather subtle when it comes to such things with his characters in general. Sansa is often accused of not thinking of so and so, but she obviously does. If all of the characters mulled over their pains as often as they actually think and feel those things, the books would be unreadable. I think we need to be careful when assuming that not being shown a character angsting over this or that, that they aren't thinking or feeling something. 

Sometimes GRRM is very subtle over those things. When Ned gets beheaded and Robb killed in the Red Wedding, we don't see Jon angsting over their deaths like what he obviously felt. In ADWD, we get the only two times Sansa is referred to as Lady Lannister and it's from Stannis to Jon when he's trying to manipulate Jon to take Winterfell. The next time we are in Jon's head after each "Lady Lannister," we get the two most vicious statements made against the Lannisters of all of Jon's chapters, more so than after Ned and Robb. 

Quote

ADWD Jon I

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow." 

ADWD Jon II

"Well, he will not want it said that Stannis rode to the defense of the realm whilst King Tommen was playing with his toys. That would bring scorn down upon House Lannister."

"It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn." Jon read from the letter. "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. Our oaths are sworn to the realm, and the realm now stands in dire peril. Stannis Baratheon aids us against our foes from beyond the Wall, though we are not his men …" 

ADWD Jon IV

"I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside. "You could bring the north to me. Your father's bannermen would rally to the son of Eddard Stark. Even Lord Too-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse. White Harbor would give me a ready source of supply and a secure base to which I could retreat at need. It is not too late to amend your folly, Snow. Take a knee and swear that bastard sword to me, and rise as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North." 

ADWD Jon V

"Fight for you?" This voice was thickly accented. Sigorn, the young Magnar of Thenn, spoke the Common Tongue haltingly at best. "Not fight for you. Kill you better. Kill all you."

The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill."

Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself. 
 

 

GRRM assumed we'd guess how Jon would feel after about the Lannisters after Ned and Robb so he didn't spend a lot of time showing us anything substantive in that regard. But he showed that "Lady Lannister" got under Jon's skin badly. Why? Jon's ADWD chapters are thick with loneliness. He was probably imagining Tyrion and Sansa coming to Winterfell, backing him in his fight to hold the Wall. Jon likes Tyrion and Tyrion knows...Jon wouldn't be alone in that overwhelming fight. And he could be like Uncle Benjen, he could have nieces and nephews nearby, go home sometimes. Nearby to these chapters, Jon hears of fArya and we find out that Jon has believed Arya died in KL about the time Ned was executed. Sansa was the last of his family to his knowledge and Stannis absolutely crushed this last hope of Jon's. And Jon blames the Lannisters. When fArya is revealed, Jon has new hope of family again after Stannis has just crushed it. I agree with Jon's decisions in regards to the Wall, but his eagerness for family and his deep loneliness made Jon reckless in methods. 

So make some assumptions where that info might be tedious for the reader and/or look a bit deeper 

 

 

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

As painful as Sansa fans are now, they're going to make this place so much fun when Sansa becomes Cersei in the next book.

What I wonder is if they'll turn on GRRM for it, or keep apologising for her.

Jon's not turning into Ned, Dany's not turning into Mad Aerys, Arya's not turning into Stoneheart, Bran's not turning into Bloodraven, and Sansa's not turning into Cersei or Littlefinger. GRRM's not so lazy of a writer as to mindlessly turn a character into one he's already written. 

How dull. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

always think it's kind of unfair, that Sansa always gets singled out for being aware of Jon's status. Because all of them are except for Arya. I guess it might have to do with the fact, that we don't have any examples of positive interactions between them. And that she refers to him as such at times to other ppl (she wouldn't call him half-brother, but Jon) is probably extra painful for him. But Jon also doesn't think badly of Sansa except for being referred to as "half-borther", but his memory of Robb, pointing out he is a bastard, is also painful to him. 

I honestly can't remember in what context it got brought up in this thread but she gets singled out for it because she says it directly to Jon, while the rest of them don't. They are all aware of Jon's status, they just don't feel the need to say it right to him. Robb hurt him also. In a discussion about Jon & Robb I would imagine it would get brought up. Jon doesn't think badly of Robb either, he thinks very fondly of Robb except in this one instance. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And than I think it is unfair, that readers are more upset about Sansa referring to Jon as bastard-brother and half-brother, than about Jon not thinking once how Sansa is doing in her marriage to Tyrion, not even after Tyrion killed his father, does he ask himself what could happened to her now. He only thinks of Tyrion, with whom he only spend a couple of days with. He only thinks, that he couldn't believe Tyrion capable of such an act. And Sansa is on his mind somehow, since he constantly tells Stannis, that WF belongs to her

I think the hang up here is that these things get brought up in a discussion that is directly about how Sansa feels toward Jon. Paraphrasing:

Poster 1: Sansa isn't close with Jon, likely because of the way Cat thinks of & behaves toward him

Poster 2: Sansa doesn't think negatively toward Jon

P1: She only refers to him as half-brother

P2: But Jon doesn't think of Sansa

See what I mean? 

It isn't, at least for me, that I'm more or less upset about Sansa's interactions with Jon than I am the other way around it's just that this is what we were talking about. It wouldn't make sense for me to bring up Jon not thinking of Sansa (although I have said a couple times they don't think about each other much) in a discussion specifically about whether or not Sansa feels negatively toward Jon. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Bastards are born out of sin, therefore must be sinful themselves. And all kinds of negative character traits are associated with them. This society's perception of them

Sure, I know where Sansa gets the idea from but the idea is wrong & bad. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And she was right being afraid to be a bastard, because the first night of her being one she got sexually assaulted by Marillion, because "there’s no wench half so lusty as one bastard born.", that's what he says to 

Yeah, but I don't think that was her issue with being bastard born. At any rate though I just used this to show her thoughts on being a bastard because the other poster said I was wrong to say Sansa doesn't think well of bastards in general. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Mya is actually kind of an Arya type and while other people call her half a mule (Miranda and Lothor) Sansa doesn't agree or speak badly of Mya. She actually thinks about Mya's future and picks in her thoughts a man for her, who likes Mya and Sansa thinks of a good and honest person

Sure, I think Sansa is growing up & shedding many of her ideas about society & how the world works & coming into her own. 

[Elegant Woes]

@Hugorfonics What Sansa was forced into with Tyrion is not a marriage. It's an act of war to humiliate the Starks and Tyrion wanted to use Sansa's body against her to steal her ancestral home. Don't you find that disgusting? Don't you see the terrible injustice that is forced on Sansa? For her to be in a marriage where the other party gains everything they wanted and she loses everything. How can you, as a Sansa fan, be okay with this? Don't you want Sansa to have the agency and power to decide for herself who she will marry?