If Ashara =Lemore, what's the sequence of events?

[lehutin]

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Meera's story does say that Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself tho.

No, she doesn't! Here's the relevant passage once more:

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

• At no point does Meera say that "Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara" or anything close to that.
• At no point does Meera say that "Ned was too shy to ask her himself." She says he was "too shy to leave his bench."

Perhaps you think it's obvious that the reason Ned was "too shy to leave his bench" is that he "really wanted to dance with Ashara" but just couldn't muster up the courage to ask such a hottie himself.

 

That may be true. But Meera herself does not say that was the reason. You assume that's the reason, but the basis for your assumption is not Meera's story, but rather the other (highly questionable) rumors about Ned and Ashara we've heard elsewhere.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, lehutin said:

• At no point does Meera say that "Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara" or anything close to that.
• At no point does Meera say that "Ned was too shy to ask her himself." She says he was "too shy to leave his bench."

Perhaps you think it's obvious that the reason Ned was "too shy to leave his bench" is that he "really wanted to dance with Ashara" but just couldn't muster up the courage to ask such a hottie himself.

 

That may be true. But Meera herself does not say that was the reason. You assume that's the reason, but the basis for your assumption is not Meera's story, but rather the other (highly questionable) rumors about Ned and Ashara we've heard elsewhere.

I personally don't like when people try to read  my thoughts based on...

but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Brandon didn't go to ask Ashara something out of a vacuum, he did it on Ned's behalf because Ned was too shy to leave his bench. Ie, Ned wanted to dance with Ashara.

If Ned hadn't wanted to dance with Ashara or if he didn't want to leave his bench:

1. He wouldn't have moved from his sit.
2. He certainly would not have become the center of the eyes by dancing with the prettiest and most desirable maid around.
3. Brandon would not have acted on his brother's behalf.

[lehutin]

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

I personally don't like when people try to read  my thoughts based on...

Oh come on, let's not play that game. I'm not "trying to read your thoughts." I don't have to do that when you write this:

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Meera's story does say that Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself tho.

What you wrote makes it clear that you, ahem, think that "Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself." 

 

And as I've said, perhaps that was the case. But it's still an assumption. Meera herself does not confirm that "Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara." I can't say you're wrong to assume that, but I can say you're wrong to attribute that to Meera.

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

Brandon didn't go to ask Ashara something out of a vacuum, he did it on Ned's behalf because Ned was too shy to leave his bench. Ie, Ned wanted to dance with Ashara.

This is just you repeating your mistake of confusing your assumption with what Meera's story says. You assume that Ned being "too shy to leave his bench" means Ned "wanted to dance with Ashara" (but was just too afraid to ask her himself).

 

Perhaps it would help if we gave a definition of "shy[ness]":

Quote

Being reserved or having or showing nervousness or timidity in the company of other people.

I think this is a great definition because it perfectly illustrates our disagreement. To me, Ned "The Quiet Wolf" Stark is "reserved." He is

Quote

Slow to reveal emotion or opinions.

However, that is only one aspect of the definition for "shy." There is another or aspect, which is 

Quote

showing nervousness or timidity in the company of other people.

It would seem to me that both you and @Frey family reunion think this describes Ned's shyness "to leave his bench." Ned wanted to dance with Ashara but was too "nervous or timid" to ask her himself.

 

As I've said repeatedly, perhaps that was the case! But now it's clear from the definition of "shyness" that the interpretation you and @Frey family reunion favor is far from the only logical interpretation. If Ned's shyness reflected "reservation" rather than "nerves/timidity," then perhaps he simply preferred to be at the table, but wouldn't say no to his older brother arranging a dance for him.

[frenin]

12 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Oh come on, let's not play that game. I'm not "trying to read your thoughts." I don't have to do that when you write this:

What you wrote makes it clear that you, ahem, think that "Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself." 

 

And as I've said, perhaps that was the case. But it's still an assumption. Meera herself does not confirm that "Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara." I can't say you're wrong to assume that, but I can say you're wrong to attribute that to Meera.

 You're reading far into it, you are indeed playing that game because again you assume my thoughts and the process of it.

 

12 minutes ago, lehutin said:

This is just you repeating your mistake of confusing your assumption with what Meera's story says. You assume that Ned being "too shy to leave his bench" means Ned "wanted to dance with Ashara" (but was just too afraid to ask her himself).

but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

No it's not. It's me repeating Meera's words, Brandon went to talk to Ashara on Ned's behalf.

12 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Perhaps it would help if we gave a definition of "shy[ness]":

I think this is a great definition because it perfectly illustrates our disagreement. To me, Ned "The Quiet Wolf" Stark is "reserved." He is

It would seem to me that both you and @Frey family reunion think this describes Ned's shyness "to leave his bench." Ned wanted to dance with Ashara but was too "nervous or timid" to ask her himself.

You sure?? Shyness does not only have one definition, it has a plenty.

Quote

• Being reserved or having or showing nervousness or timidity in the company of other people.

  ‘I was pretty shy at school’

  ‘a shy smile’

  More example sentences

  Synonyms

  1. 1.1shy aboutpredicative Slow or reluctant to do (something)
      
     ‘she has never been shy about discussing her efforts to raise aesthetic standards’
     More example sentences
  2. 1.2in combination Having a dislike of or aversion to a specified thing.
      
     ‘not publicity-shy, he offers the camera a friendly look’
  3. 1.3(of a wild mammal or bird) reluctant to remain in sight of humans.
      
     ‘otters are very shy animals’
     More example sentences

• 2shy ofinformal predicative Less than; short of.

  ‘he won the championship with a score three points shy of a world record’

  More example sentences

  1. 2.1Before.
      
     ‘he left school just shy of his fourteenth birthday’
     More example sentences

• 3(of a plant) not bearing flowers or fruit well or prolifically.

  ‘A new work by Alan Bennett is like a shy plant that only flowers every now and then, but when it does gives enormous pleasure.’

  ‘Cyclamen Cyclamen are subtler and more elegant than poinsettia with delicate, silky, shy flowers and the dappled heart-shaped leaves.

Ned himself has never been shown as being timid, or being afrais to speak his mind.

 

 

12 minutes ago, lehutin said:

As I've said repeatedly, perhaps that was the case! But now it's clear from the definition of "shyness" that the interpretation you and @Frey family reunion favor is far from the only logical interpretation. If Ned's shyness reflected "reservation" rather than "nerves/timidity," then perhaps he simply preferred to be at the table, but wouldn't say no to his older brother arranging a dance for him.

It's not far from the logical interpretation and i didn't disagree that Ned preferred the table, that's why he did not leave his bench, but clearly Brandon acted on Ned's behalf there.

[kissdbyfire]

@frenin, do you think the quote you provided supports your claim that Ned “had fun” at the tourney? That’s the passage I referred to in my reply to you by the way. And to me the whole thing reads as full of melancholic feelings rather than “fun”.

[lehutin]

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're reading far into it, you are indeed playing that game because again you assume my thoughts and the process of it.

Alright, if you're telling me that when you write this

Quote

"Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself."

I can't conclude that what you wrote reflects what you think, then I'm out. Bye.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, lehutin said:

Alright, if you're telling me that when you write this

I can't conclude that what you wrote reflects what you think, then I'm out. Bye.

Do i need to quote  it a third time?? Meera is the one saying that Brandon's actions were on Ned's behalf.

 

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@frenin, do you think the quote you provided supports your claim that Ned “had fun” at the tourney? That’s the passage I referred to in my reply to you by the way. And to me the whole thing reads as full of melancholic feelings rather than “fun”.

Well ofc it's melancholic, it happened more than 16 years ago. He still has good memories of it however, warm days, cool nights, sweet taste of wine, Brandon and Robert... That's him evoking good memories.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Nah, Ned had the time of his life at Harrenhall, he isn't a party animal, that's not to say he does not enjoy a good one now and then, i certainly never pictured him akward and he certainly does not come off as shy neither before, when he is noticed to be angry at Rhaegar,

When was Ned angry at Rhaegar? I think you are confusing him with Brandon at Harrenhal after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

Quote

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due..

Brandon is the angry one. Ned is no less pleased, but calmer.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

nor after as lord., i agree there with @Frey family reunion that the reason he was shy there is because he had a crush on Ashara and did not know how to act on it.

See below.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Nor that it makes sense for Ned to be awkward, he was among his siblings and his bannermem, he was among his own people. Ned is never described as a shy/awkward person, just as Jon is never described as a shy person, they are both described as quiet people, nor they are described as Stannis's like.

Lets look at young Ned shall we?

From Catelyn:

Quote

She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned's solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin.

From Robert:

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours?

Quote

Robert slapped Ned on the back. "Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. 

Quote

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. 

According to Robert, who literally grew up with Ned as closest friends, Ned was never "free and easy", couldn't lie, was always honourable. Robert thinks Ned's bastard came from literally the one time Ned let things go and forgot his honour.

From Ned himself:

Quote

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark

Ned is not, was never, a man who indulges himself.

Theon:

Quote

Theon told himself he must be as cold and deliberate as Lord Eddard. 

Jaime:

Quote

He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.

Meera's story:

Quote

"Two," said Meera. "The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

 

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

Ned was the second son; quiet, somber, solemn, honest to a fault, never indulged, cold, deliberate, dutiful. He doesn't enjoy being Lord, doesn't always "know what to do" like Brandon would have (who was born (and trained) for the role) and never wanted the role.

This is the man who was too shy to leave his bench amidst the pageantry of the southern courts* at the biggest party on the continent.
And you insist that it can only be because he was smitten by Ashara.
Well... we can all make our own judgements.

*Ned is not just 'amongst his own people'. He's at a party with all the assembled nobility of westeros. Ashara (Southron courtier, companion of the Crown Princess) was dancing with:
White Sword - likely Arthur Dayne (the white sword of the white cloaks), a legendary Southron
Red Snake - Oberyn Martell, famous southron Lord/Prince
Lord of Griffons - Jon Connington, Stormlands Lord, fellow squire of the Dragon Prince
This is not the quiet wolf's comfort zone...
 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

IMeera's story does say that Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself tho.

This is a flat lie. I'm blunt, since this has been explicitly spelled out numerous times already.

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

At no point does it say Ned wanted to dance with Ashara. It says Brandon asked on his behalf, which means that Brandon did it for Ned. It does not indicate whether it was Ned's desire or not. Brandon can do it because he thinks its good for Ned or he can do it because Ned wants him to.

At no point does it say Ned was too shy to ask her to dance. It says he was too shy to leave his bench.
It doesn't limit the shyness to Ashara. The wider context is a huge party. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

That just tell us that there is one info that is wrong, given that we know that Jon is not Wylla's son and Ned told Ned that a Wylla was Jon's mother, we can safely say what is the info. Since we don't know how little or how clueless the girl really is i find that argument irrelevant. If Dayne was told that Ned and Ashara were in love and that Ned and Wylla had Jon, it could that both are right, both are false, the first is right, the second is right and so on.

What a garbled mess. 
The point is that the information is clearly not well sourced. Allyria clearly doesn't truly know or understand what she is talking about.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

That is a far more interesting argument, i find it really hard to believe, not impossible, that Ned had a fling without telling Robert for x reasons. Who knows tho.

Its not about what Ned told Robert. Its about Robert's assessment of Ned's character, built up over years of them hanging out together as best buddies, while Robert really did the party/playa thing. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

He came back from Dorne with a bastard son, not specifically from Starfall, the idea that it was Ashara must come from a previous relationship that connects both events and give people a plausible theiry.

Specifically he came back from Starfall. And no, there is no necessity for a previous relationship. Its quite explicit.

Quote

 They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. 

Ned went south. 
He slayed the legendary Sword of the Morning.
He carried Dawn back to the beautiful young sister at a castle called Starfall.
Ned left Starfall with a bastard son.
The beautiful sister threw herself from a tower into the sea.

These are the facts that people know. 
Its clear, if Ned took his bastard son off Ashara, then there must have been a previous relationship. Bastards take 9 months to appear, same as other kids. If the sister was waiting for him with his bastard they had to have known each before, had a relationship before.

The idea of the prior relationship is formed from the visit to Starfall and the bastard, not the visit to Starfall formed from a prior relationship.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Because Robb never talked with Bran about complicated stuff right??

Whats that got to do with things?
The point is, Allyria either talked with Ashara about Ashara's disastrous love life that eventually apparently caused her suicide, or she didn't.

At what age do you see an older sister who has completely screwed up her love life, been dishonoured and dismissed from court and is carrying a bastard child, discuss her love life with a younger sister?
7? 10? 13? More in my opinion, but lets take those three options as possible.
I'm not sure exactly, but that would be in 282 ish, making Allyria 23?, 26?, 29? with a 6 year betrothal to Beric before he goes to court in 298.
Seems a bit old. 23 might barely fit, but thats an unnecessarily long betrothal when both parties are early-mid twenties and the families are on good terms.

I'm pretty sure Allyria never talked with Ashara about Ashara's disastrous love life.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

If she was Ashara's not still born daughter, she would be marrid already.

Is she was conceived at Harrenhal, she'd be born around 282ish  and so around 17-18 during ASoS. Which fits a 6+ year betrothal but not yet married given Beric was sent off by Ned in late 298, when she was around 16. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Arianne is old and unmarried, just as Asha and a couple of boys. Btw, Dornish culture=/Westerosi culture.  

Yeah good examples. 
Arriane has had many marriage options presented, but is specifically being held for a greater plan. 
Asha is a case completely outside of Westerosi norms. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned or Brandon?? Ned would've caused far more damage, so why would there be a difference??

What damage?

5 hours ago, frenin said:

If Ned dishonored,

He didn't. There's no possibility of that within his character. There was absolutely nothing to stop him marrying her when she was dishonoured at Harrenhal.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

he left her, married another woman, killed her brother, she commited suicide./ Brandon commited suicide (...) was killed by Aerys...

Both Brandon and Ned can be fire  there because mud is clearly Barri  B.

I find it hard to believe someone can seriously put that out there as an idea for all to see and judge.

Quote

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

Barristan defines Quentyn as Mud. He's short (Ned was disappointingly shorter than Brandon, per Catelyn) plain faced (Ned per Catelyn), decent (Ned all over), sober (Ned), sensible (Ned), dutiful (Ned).
The girl in Dany wants poetry, passion and laughter - fire. All three of those are practically the precise opposite of Ned.
Mud cools (Ned), mud grows things (look at what Catelyn said about finding love enough for any woman) and nourishes.
Fire burns, consumes, is dangerous and selfish. Brandon all over.

Barristan isn't comparing two individuals. He's comparing two types. Maybe he includes himself in the mud type (I doubt it, since he could never nourish and grow a relationship being in the kingsguard) but that doesn't force Ned to be a fire type. Regardless, Ashara never had a chance to choose Barristan, since he was ineligible as a KG and he never declared himself to her, so Barristan is not relevant to the fire vs mud idea.

Ashara "looked to" Stark for some reason, after her dishonour. 
At some stage, she chose a man. A young girl, she must have chosen a fire man, not a mud man, else Barristan would not think that young girls choose fire every time.
I'm not certain she "chose" a Stark, though it appears likely given the limited information we have.
But whatever the case, it is extremely clear that Ned Stark does not fit the profile of any choice Barristan thinks she may have made, whereas Brandon Stark absolutely does. 
 

 

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, frenin said:

Do i need to quote  it a third time?? Meera is the one saying that Brandon's actions were on Ned's behalf.

I think there’s a much stricter definition of “on behalf of” being applied here. 

26 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Well ofc it's melancholic, it happened more than 16 years ago. He still has good memories of it however, warm days, cool nights, sweet taste of wine, Brandon and Robert... That's him evoking good memories.

Agree to disagree. 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, it's not at all.  You can't have it both ways.  There were a lot of conversations that Ned had with Robert that should have brought up his POV thoughts regarding Jon's parentage.  Yet it doesn't because presumably the author does not want to reveal his hand.  The same can be said about Ned's relationship with Ashara.  There may be a mystery regarding their relationship that the author wants to save as a reveal.  

No, it can't. Ned has thoughts around Jon's parentage - the subject comes up both directly and indirectly. We see his words at times and how his thoughts run to certain things at others, when the subject is up, or subjects related are up. There is clearly a mystery there waiting for a reveal.

But there is simply no such parallel with Ashara. N+A is presented as a solution, not a mystery, and Ned has several opportunities to think of her and indicate to us a mystery to be solved, yet his mind always goes in completely difference directions. There is simply no there, there with N+A.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And if you want a more practical argument that I can base on practical experience, I have been happily married for a good number of years.  Before my marriage I had a small number of fairly long term relationships with other women.  Yet it is very rare today, where I would actively think about any of my girlfriends that I had before my wife.  It's just not something I dwell on.

If you were challenged about them, about events in their times, your mind would go to them. Ned's mind goes elsewhere. There is a there there for you, even if its not present on a day to day level. There's no there there for Ned. 

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would assume that Ned is the same.  He could have had a relationship before he married Cat, yet now he is happily married to Cat, and has no reason to think back upon the girl who he may have previously been in a relationship with, or maybe even previously been in love with. 

No reason day to day (though Jon's presence and the discord it brings should be an occasional reminder), but there are a number of occasions where we ought to get Ned thinking somethign related to Ashara. Something, anything... nothing.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Barristan on the other hand, doesn't have a serious relationship with a woman, and perhaps he has never had one.  So all he has are memories and perhaps regrets of things that he missed out on his years of service, Ashara being the one most predominate in his memory.

Agreed.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you want to argue that Ned's lack of POV regarding Ashara proves that Ashara isn't Jon's mother, than fine have it. 

Its only one factor. there are many others.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I personally don't think Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, but I also think it's a bit dodgy to try and pick and choose which of Ned's POV's that the reader is made privy to, as good evidence one way or the other.

Wrong description. Its the author's job to put clues in to mysteries. And GRRM is as good at this as anyone I've ever read. 
But he doesn't put in any clues to N+A from the participants (or those around them at the time). He only throws in outright statements from people who clearly don't know the facts. Plus, he puts in un-clues from someone who was around - Barristan.

 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps if the "rumor" was just among the washerwomen at Winterfell, I would agree with you.  But it's not.  It's also the word around Ashara's family. 

To the contrary. The rumour around Ashara's family is that Wylla is the mother.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems very unlikely that they would have jumped to a conclusion that Ashara was in love with Ned because she jumped off a tower when he brought her slain brother's sword back to her.  The only logical explanation, is that Ned and Ashara had indeed started a relationship around the time of Harrenhal.  

Thats not even a logical conclusion, let alone the only one. 
She jumped off a tower because... they had a previous relationship? It wasn't because he took her child away - the bastard is Wylla's apparently. Because she'd lost Ned? He was married around nine months before, why jump now?
There is no logic in the idea that Ashara jumped because Ned 'left' her. 

What I see is a young girl (Allyria) with a mysterious big sister (whom she probably doesn't remember at all) who killed herself. The truth involves a dishonour and disgrace from court, a bastard child (stillborn Barristan has been told), a total loss of future and a despairing suicide (or fake suicide). But thats not a nice way to think of the departed. Miserable, disgraced, despairing. I doubt the family tell that story. Frankly I doubt they tell any story to the kids, to be fair.
Instead she'll describe a tragic love affair, doomed by war, and a huge romantic gesture at the loss of a great love.  Sad, but so so tragically romantic. So Ashara and Ned "were in love". While Ned was boning Wylla. Which we know from Ned's character is impossible - but Allyria doesn't know. She's just got this tragi-romantic story to tell about her long dead sister.

 

[corbon]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

We know perfectly the reason for why Ned was tense in Winterfell and it wasn't because he was out of his element. As i said, not before not after, Ned is described as a shy, the one time he is Ashara is on the mix..

But Ned is described consistently in terms that fit with shyness.

He is quiet, sombre, solemn, plain-faced, neevr wanted to be lord, didn't "know what to do" instinctively.
None of these define shy, but all of them are traits that are generally held in common by shy people.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

We are said that Brandon spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. If Ned was too shy in general or wasn't confortable there, Brandon would not have acted on Ned's behalf.

Sure he could have. 

Brandon can want to push Ned out of his comfort zone. When I agreed to my son filling in for the hardball cricket team on Saturday morning when they were short, I agreed "on his behalf". He was afraid and just wanted to stick with soft ball on friday nights. After the first hardball game he asked to play the rest of the season!

Brandon can also just to do things because he thinks its best for Ned, even if Ned disagrees. If I sign my daughter up for swimming lessons "on her behalf", its not because she wants them, its because I think she needs them. She'd rather just play in the surf. I'd rather she had some skills to fall back on.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon's laughter, and Robert's berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king's pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Os well Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.
Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. 

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

Sure, things went south at the end, but he enjoyed himself there.

 

There are good memories, yes. But the only thing there that remotely suggests Ned "enjoyed himself" was that sweet taste of wine.
But not too much wine. No one could say Ned was a man who knew how to take his pleasures.

Good memories are not synonymous with partying wildly. 
Ned was explicitly quiet, sober, solemn, dutiful. 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Do i need to quote  it a third time?? Meera is the one saying that Brandon's actions were on Ned's behalf.

But you neglect that 'on X's behalf' has multiple meanings and insist on choosing the one meaning that actually runs counter to all the evidence we have of Ned's character and memories.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

To the contrary. The rumour around Ashara's family is that Wylla is the mother.

No, I'm talking about the idea that Ned and Ashara were or had been in love.  I don't believe that Allyria would have picked up on that unless there was some belief in her family about that.  Otherwise she would have just been raised knowing Ned as the guy who killed her famous uncle and drove her "aunt" to suicide.  I know there is push back on this, but the fact that they nickname Edric "Ned" may be a little telling as well.

P.S., in these trying times it's fairly nice to debate about such trivial stuff like this.  

 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, I'm talking about the idea that Ned and Ashara were or had been in love.  I don't believe that Allyria would have picked up on that unless there was some belief in her family about that.  

There has to be a reason for Ashara to commit suicide - one thats not sordid and pathetic. A doomed love affair is perfect. 
Especially if she hears other things about Stark involvement with Ashara - Ashara "looked to" a Stark at Harrenhal remember. We have nothing to tell us that was Ned.
Put the "looked to" 'Stark' together with suicide after Ned leaves, there's your romance...

The point remains, Allyria is demonstrably a bad data source. She clearly doesn't know what she is talking about and thats supported by the little data we have on her which points to her being too young to have been around anyone involved.
Her data is literally gossip, rather than the "House knowledge" it gets treated as by some.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Otherwise she would have just been raised knowing Ned as the guy who killed her famous uncle and drove her "aunt" to suicide.  

You mean "the guy who gave us Dawn back"? 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know there is push back on this, but the fact that they nickname Edric "Ned" may be a little telling as well.

Need a facepalm emoji. The headbanging one has more angry connotations to me that aren't suitable.

Think about that just a little...
Ashara suiciding because she was in love with Ned is not a point in his favour!

If Edric has anything to do with Eddard, which is possible, if dubious, that is inconsistent with the concept that Ashara and Ned were in love and Ashara killed herself because she lost Ned. The kiddies of House Dayne clearly aren't getting their cues from their Elders. Most likely they are repeating gossip they heard from others.
If it is the case, it almost certainly revolves entirely around the fact that Eddard Stark returned to House Dayne their honour, history, meaning and emblem, in their darkest hour, when he had no cause to.

[frenin]

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

When was Ned angry at Rhaegar? I think you are confusing him with Brandon at Harrenhal after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

Brandon is the angry one. Ned is no less pleased, but calmer.

 

Why did you have to fight someone to be angry at someone?? Ned was calmer than Brandon, he did not want to fight Rhaegar, but no less pleased, he was still pissed off.

 

 

24 minutes ago, corbon said:

Ned was the second son; quiet, somber, solemn, honest to a fault, never indulged, cold, deliberate, dutiful. He doesn't enjoy being Lord, doesn't always "know what to do" like Brandon would have (who was born (and trained) for the role) and never wanted the role.

This is the man who was too shy to leave his bench amidst the pageantry of the southern courts* at the biggest party on the continent.
And you insist that it can only be because he was smitten by Ashara.
Well... we can all make our own judgements.

*Ned is not just 'amongst his own people'. He's at a party with all the assembled nobility of westeros. Ashara (Southron courtier, companion of the Crown Princess) was dancing with:
White Sword - likely Arthur Dayne (the white sword of the white cloaks), a legendary Southron
Red Snake - Oberyn Martell, famous southron Lord/Prince
Lord of Griffons - Jon Connington, Stormlands Lord, fellow squire of the Dragon Prince
This is not the quiet wolf's comfort zone...

I never see among all those quotes, the words awkward or timid, Ned is cold and quiet but that does not mean, unable to be around people, uneasy to be around people.  Ned certainly is not like that. It seems that either you're Brandon or you're Stannis. There is no gray area. He is the quiet wolf not the awkward wolf. In fact, the only only time Ned is described as shy is in that one that scene at Harrenhall, never before, never again.

Yes, this is the man who was to shy to leave the bench amidst the pageantry of the southern courts, not like Ned was not raised in the south or something, and whose brother had to ask Ashara to dance with him on Ned's behalf.  

Ned is in the bench among his people, why would he leave his bench for exactly?? 

 

33 minutes ago, corbon said:

At no point does it say Ned wanted to dance with Ashara. It says Brandon asked on his behalf, which means that Brandon did it for Ned. It does not indicate whether it was Ned's desire or not. Brandon can do it because he thinks its good for Ned or he can do it because Ned wants him to.

At no point does it say Ned was too shy to ask her to dance. It says he was too shy to leave his bench.
It doesn't limit the shyness to Ashara. The wider context is a huge party. 

Quote

in/on behalf of, as a representative of or a proxy for:On behalf of my colleagues, I address you tonight.

in/on (someone's) behalf, in the interest or aid of (someone):He interceded in my behalf.

It does indicate Ned's desire.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

What a garbled mess. 
The point is that the information is clearly not well sourced. Allyria clearly doesn't truly know or understand what she is talking about.

I will be concise the and go to the source.

 

Dayne "knows" that Wylla is Jon's mother but his aunt told him that Ned and Ashara fell in love  at Harrenhall, not that even they continue whatever they might have started. The source from Wylla and Ashara may or may not be the same. Allyria as far as we know, only talks about Ned and Ashara, she does not talk about Wylla. Almost any info about the romantics relationship characters had is well sourced or clear enough and it's oten contradictory, don't really know what is a problem here, the deal is that Ned's name is the one people keep bringing up.

There is no contradiction with sources, not the info means that Allyria does  know or understand what she is talking about as far as we know. 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not about what Ned told Robert. Its about Robert's assessment of Ned's character, built up over years of them hanging out together as best buddies, while Robert really did the party/playa thing. 

And if i assesed that Ned had a lover in every kingdom of Westeros you might have a point, having a crush or a fling with one girl over an entire life is not being a player.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Specifically he came back from Starfall. And no, there is no necessity for a previous relationship. Its quite explicit.

Not with a baby tho. 

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Ned went south. 
He slayed the legendary Sword of the Morning.
He carried Dawn back to the beautiful young sister at a castle called Starfall.
Ned left Starfall with a bastard son.
The beautiful sister threw herself from a tower into the sea.

These are the facts that people know. 
Its clear, if Ned took his bastard son off Ashara, then there must have been a previous relationship. Bastards take 9 months to appear, same as other kids. If the sister was waiting for him with his bastard they had to have known each before, had a relationship before.

The idea of the prior relationship is formed from the visit to Starfall and the bastard, not the visit to Starfall formed from a prior relationship.

Which is when i disagree, i don't think that Ned people did not notice Jon all the way to Starfall, Ned at some point had a bastard in Dorne, he went with him to Starfall with him and rumours flew.

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Whats that got to do with things?
The point is, Allyria either talked with Ashara about Ashara's disastrous love life that eventually apparently caused her suicide, or she didn't.

At what age do you see an older sister who has completely screwed up her love life, been dishonoured and dismissed from court and is carrying a bastard child, discuss her love life with a younger sister?
7? 10? 13? More in my opinion, but lets take those three options as possible.
I'm not sure exactly, but that would be in 282 ish, making Allyria 23?, 26?, 29? with a 6 year betrothal to Beric before he goes to court in 298.
Seems a bit old. 23 might barely fit, but thats an unnecessarily long betrothal when both parties are early-mid twenties and the families are on good terms.

I'm pretty sure Allyria never talked with Ashara about Ashara's disastrous love life.

And the point is, we don't know why they aren't married yet, perhaps and just perhaps, they are not rushing things up, perhaps nne of them are on the clock.

We don't know if Ashara was dismissed from court but at what age does an older brother who is riding to war tell his younger brother how his bannerman scare the shit out of him and how he he thought he was going to die?? 7?10?13?

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Is she was conceived at Harrenhal, she'd be born around 282ish  and so around 17-18 during ASoS. Which fits a 6+ year betrothal but not yet married given Beric was sent off by Ned in late 298, when she was around 16. 

Given that women in Westeros marry since 14 and since you're using Westerosi customs, they'd be no need to wait.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Yeah good examples. 
Arriane has had many marriage options presented, but is specifically being held for a greater plan. 
Asha is a case completely outside of Westerosi norms. 

Very indeed.

No one is arguing about how they are getting too older to marry. Not with Asha not with Arianne (she is the one getting anxious actually). Since we know next to nothing about Dornish norms and how much they rush things up, i find kind of irrelevant what the other Westerosi do.  That is the thing with talking about a person we know absolutely nothing about save  her name, maybe she's an exception too, if for some very weird reason they have accorded to wait... If...

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

What damage?

Either of them banged her, got her pregnant and that let to her future death.

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

He didn't. There's no possibility of that within his character. There was absolutely nothing to stop him marrying her when she was dishonoured at Harrenhal.

Don't really think he dishonored her, hell not even Harwin thinks that.

A civil was what stopped him from doing anything.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Barristan defines Quentyn as Mud. He's short (Ned was disappointingly shorter than Brandon, per Catelyn) plain faced (Ned per Catelyn), decent (Ned all over), sober (Ned), sensible (Ned), dutiful (Ned).
The girl in Dany wants poetry, passion and laughter - fire. All three of those are practically the precise opposite of Ned.
Mud cools (Ned), mud grows things (look at what Catelyn said about finding love enough for any woman) and nourishes.
Fire burns, consumes, is dangerous and selfish. Brandon all over.

Barristan isn't comparing two individuals. He's comparing two types. Maybe he includes himself in the mud type (I doubt it, since he could never nourish and grow a relationship being in the kingsguard) but that doesn't force Ned to be a fire type. Regardless, Ashara never had a chance to choose Barristan, since he was ineligible as a KG and he never declared himself to her, so Barristan is not relevant to the fire vs mud idea.

Ashara "looked to" Stark for some reason, after her dishonour. 
At some stage, she chose a man. A young girl, she must have chosen a fire man, not a mud man, else Barristan would not think that young girls choose fire every time.
I'm not certain she "chose" a Stark, though it appears likely given the limited information we have.
But whatever the case, it is extremely clear that Ned Stark does not fit the profile of any choice Barristan thinks she may have made, whereas Brandon Stark absolutely does. 

I've already told this once to you, Barri B's words are just a hyperbole, always does not mean always, just most of times. Now, i know that Barristan is talking about types of people yet the truth as it is is that fire didn't get to consume Ashara, mud did. So in her case, it's completely possible that Ned was actually the fire, as plain as it is.

 

Quote

But you neglect that 'on X's behalf' has multiple meanings and insist on choosing the one meaning that actually runs counter to all the evidence we have of Ned's character and memories.

Don't really know how Ned having a crush on Ashara 16 years prior the events of the books runs counter to all the evidence we have on Ned's character and memories.

[corbon]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why did you have to fight someone to be angry at someone?? Ned was calmer than Brandon, he did not want to fight Rhaegar, but no less pleased, he was still pissed off.

You used it as an example of him not being shy.
Yet he was noticeably calm and didn't make the scene that Brandon did.
Anger is not incompatible with shyness.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

I never see among all those quotes, the words awkward or timid,

One person used awkward once, as an example. Timid is entirely your own. You've basically turned this into a straw man.
I've shown is some depth how Ned's character is expressed consistently in terms that are commonly held traits of shy people. Noh=thing he says or does in inconsistent.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned is cold and quiet but that does not mean, unable to be around people, uneasy to be around people.  Ned certainly is not like that. It seems that either you're Brandon or you're Stannis. There is no gray area. He is the quiet wolf not the awkward wolf. In fact, the only only time Ned is described as shy is in that one that scene at Harrenhall, never before, never again.

Except that he's consistently described in general terms that fit together. Shy is just one of them. 
The Ned we see has been Lord for 16+ years, has grown into the role he still feels unsuited for and never wanted.
The Ned at Harrenhal is a quiet, sober, dutiful, honourable 18 year old second son kid, with a larger than life elder brother. He hasn't grown into the role of Lord, he still doesn't expect it, he's never been trained for it.
He's described as too shy to leave his bench. You insist that is only because if Ashara, yet it fits perfectly with everything else we know of him.

Its not that it definitely isn't because of Ashara, its that your insistence that it must be because of Ashara is irrational and nonsensical.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, this is the man who was to shy to leave the bench amidst the pageantry of the southern courts, not like Ned was not raised in the south or something,

He has spent considerable time at the Arryn court, certainly. And as Robert says, he was never the boy he was, and was always an honourable stick-up-the-ass. 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

and whose brother had to ask Ashara to dance with him on Ned's behalf.  

Didn't have to. Did. There is a difference that you refuse to acknowledge

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned is in the bench among his people, why would he leave his bench for exactly?? 

For any number of reasons. Brandon was, clearly. To mingle, to learn, to understand people, heck, to find a likely wife even, who knows. He's a second son with no family plan it seems. 
The point is he was too shy to do so.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

It does indicate Ned's desire.

This is simply not true.
Ned may have desire, or he may not. Both are valid within the language which does not indicate either way.

It may be this is a second language problem. 
I've given two direct examples that use the same language and use two other possible meanings of 'on behalf of'. Ignoring them and insisting on only the other is ... well, not exactly discussing things in good faith.

Here we go again.
"On behalf of" can have three (at least) different connotations.
1. Do something for another that they desire to do but cannot or will not for some reason. (This is the one you insist on)
2. Do something for another because you believe it would be good for them and they will thank you for doing it after. They may desire it or may not desire it initially, but will be grateful. (This is the example of my son playing hardball cricket)
3. Do something for another because you believe it is in their best interest, even though they do not want you to do it. (this is the example of my daughter getting swimming lessons)

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dayne "knows" that Wylla is Jon's mother but his aunt told him that Ned and Ashara fell in love  at Harrenhall, not that even they continue whatever they might have started. The source from Wylla and Ashara may or may not be the same. Allyria as far as we know, only talks about Ned and Ashara, she does not talk about Wylla. Almost any info about the romantics relationship characters had is well sourced or clear enough and it's oten contradictory, don't really know what is a problem here, the deal is that Ned's name is the one people keep bringing up.

The problem is it is clearly not sourced through people who were actually present and is contradictory. Thats all we need to know.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

There is no contradiction with sources, not the info means that Allyria does  know or understand what she is talking about as far as we know. 

The idea that Ned and Ashara were in love while Ned was bonking Wylla is absolutely contradictory with all we learn about Ned, older or younger.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

And if i assesed that Ned had a lover in every kingdom of Westeros you might have a point, having a crush or a fling with one girl over an entire life is not being a player.

Yet Robert, who grew up with Ned, things that Ned had only one time, and it must have been an amazing girl to make him forget his honour.
Its not just that Ned was not a playa, its that those who know him, and he himself, assess him to be even more uptight than normal people about these things.

Your assessment is meaningnless. Their assessment is not.

Put that on top of the absolute absence of thoughts about Ashara...

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Not with a baby tho. 

Yes, with a baby.
He came back from the south with a bastard. Starfall is the last known location where he was in the south. There is no indication from anyone outside of Ned and the remnants of his band (no public indication from them either, though we have some information that Westerosi don't know), of a baby pre-Starfall visit. Ergo, he came back from Starfall with a baby.
This is backed up by the rumours in Winterfell and from Cersei associating Ashara with Jon.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Which is when i disagree, i don't think that Ned people did not notice Jon all the way to Starfall, Ned at some point had a bastard in Dorne, he went with him to Starfall with him and rumours flew.

What people? Only Ned and Howland walked away from ToJ. Ned didn't have any other people at that time. Wylla joined them at some point - either at ToJ or at Starfall. I prefer ToJ scenario myself, but its not certain.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

And the point is, we don't know why they aren't married yet, perhaps and just perhaps, they are not rushing things up, perhaps nne of them are on the clock.

That 'point' doesn't deserve more.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

We don't know if Ashara was dismissed from court

She's not mentioned again between Harrenhal and Ned's visit to Starfall. 
Barristan says she was dishonoured at Harrenhal.
Barristan says she had a stillborn child - a bastard. 
Dornish culture may be somewhat more permissive, but a companion to the Targaryen Crown Princess doesn't get to bear a bastard and keep her position. Not in a normal court, even less so in Aerys' court, full of suspicion and infighting.
Dismissed, retired, withdrew, call it what you like. She wasn't at court any more after her unmarried pregnancy was known, you can guarantee that.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

but at what age does an older brother who is riding to war tell his younger brother how his bannerman scare the shit out of him and how he he thought he was going to die?? 7?10?13?

Not the same thing.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Given that women in Westeros marry since 14 and since you're using Westerosi customs, they'd be no need to wait.

Mostly they don't marry at 14 though, except in times of political need.

There was no political need until Robert's sudden death, then all hell broke loose out of nowhere with Beric involved at court from the start.

 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Very indeed.

No one is arguing about how they are getting too older to marry. Not with Asha

Asha is 22 or 23 at the time the series starts. She's a special case - a ships captain in the Ironborn. She'd actually have happily married she thinks to herself, but she can;t marry Quarl, too lowborn.
And she is already married at the current stage, even if only due to politics, at 24-25.

Case fail.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

not with Arianne (she is the one getting anxious actually).

Yeah, shes getting anxious because she's old to be unmarried, proving the point. She's only 24 currently. the only reason she's unmarried is because Doran was saving her secretly for Viserys, then waiting to see how the cards fell after Westeros fell into turmoil.

Case fail again, badly.

It would be better to find more 'normal' cases than these two exceptional cases if you are trying to make a case that a 26+ (older IMO, if she had ever discussed or observed Ashara's love life before the suicide) year old Allyria isn't unusually old to have a 6 year betrothal to a suitably aged Lord, with the Houses in good standing, in peaceful times (mostly during Robert's reign), and not be married yet.

But one or two cases doesn't really prove anything anyway. The normal paradigm in Westeros, as for almost any civilisation before advanced medicine is for women to be married in their later teens or early twenties - past the early danger zone but during peak fertility and maximum childbearing years.
I don;t see how anyone can argue otherwise in good faith. We aren't talking absolutes, becaase we don't know all (any!) details. We are talking reasonable estimates.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Either of them banged her, got her pregnant and that let to her future death.

Ahh, so we aren't going to  make character judgement from the actual data, we are going to assume the facts, then make judgement based on those assumptions.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Don't really think he dishonored her, hell not even Harwin thinks that.

Indeed. But she was dishonoured at Harrenhal, looked to Stark, according to Barristan later bore a child (stillborn) out of wedlock, and you are arguing that she had a prior relationship with Ned.
 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

A civil was what stopped him from doing anything.

The civil war didn;t start until many months after Harrenhal.
When Ashara was dishonoured, probably got pregnant, Ned was a free second son with no future bride lined up. Ashara would have been an excellent match for him if he was in a relationship with her.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

I've already told this once to you, Barri B's words are just a hyperbole, always does not mean always, just most of times.

I missed you saying that before.
But they aren't pure hyperbole. Thats his observation. They are the sum total of his experience, which we don;t think is very much, given his career and character.
 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Now, i know that Barristan is talking about types of people yet the truth as it is is that fire didn't get to consume Ashara, mud did.

What truth? What a weird statement! Ashara was dishonoured, got pregnant, didn't get married, had a baby and suicided (or faked it). How is any of that mud? Thats a bad fire boy doing fire things, not a serious, sober, boring dutiful mud boy doingn mud things. 

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

So in her case, it's completely possible that Ned was actually the fire, as plain as it is.

Well, the points have been made. Everyone can see the reasoning. You've made your case, I'm more than content with that!

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

You used it as an example of him not being shy.
Yet he was noticeably calm and didn't make the scene that Brandon did.
Anger is not incompatible with shyness.

At all.  just that he was angry. The shy bit is only given to us in one ocasion, Ned simply is not shy.

He wasn't noticeably calm, he was calmer than Brandon. 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

One person used awkward once, as an example. Timid is entirely your own. You've basically turned this into a straw man.
 I've shown is some depth how Ned's character is expressed consistently in terms that are commonly held traits of shy people. Noh=thing he says or does in inconsistent.

No you didn't. Ned is quiet and cold, he is not timid, neither is he uncomfortable with being with other people. Not that him not wanting to be lord is consistent with shyness, Robert does not want to be King either.  Jon himself is very much Ned and he is not shy either. You're arbitrarily deciding it that those aspects of Ned are consistent of shy people.

 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Except that he's consistently described in general terms that fit together. Shy is just one of them. 
The Ned we see has been Lord for 16+ years, has grown into the role he still feels unsuited for and never wanted.
The Ned at Harrenhal is a quiet, sober, dutiful, honourable 18 year old second son kid, with a larger than life elder brother. He hasn't grown into the role of Lord, he still doesn't expect it, he's never been trained for it.
He's described as too shy to leave his bench. You insist that is only because if Ashara, yet it fits perfectly with everything else we know of him.

Its not that it definitely isn't because of Ashara, its that your insistence that it must be because of Ashara is irrational and nonsensical.

He isn't not iit fits.

Ofc that he feels unsuited for it, it was never meant to him, nor was he prepared for it,  him having it is a sign of all the bad things that happened. Robert never wanted to be King, he himself feels unsuited to the task, is Robert privately shy, or maybe both them of not wanting what they achieved have nothing to do with their shyness?? 

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

He has spent considerable time at the Arryn court, certainly. And as Robert says, he was never the boy he was, and was always an honourable stick-up-the-ass. 

I Don't see the correlation between being an honourable stick-up-the-ass with being shy or being intimidated by a southron court...

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

For any number of reasons. Brandon was, clearly. To mingle, to learn, to understand people, heck, to find a likely wife even, who knows. He's a second son with no family plan it seems. 
 The point is he was too shy to do so.

All those things he could in his bench, dancing not however.

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

This is simply not true.
Ned may have desire, or he may not. Both are valid within the language which does not indicate either way.

It may be this is a second language problem. 
I've given two direct examples that use the same language and use two other possible meanings of 'on behalf of'. Ignoring them and insisting on only the other is ... well, not exactly discussing things in good faith.

Here we go again.
"On behalf of" can have three (at least) different connotations.
1. Do something for another that they desire to do but cannot or will not for some reason. (This is the one you insist on)
2. Do something for another because you believe it would be good for them and they will thank you for doing it after. They may desire it or may not desire it initially, but will be grateful. (This is the example of my son playing hardball cricket)
3. Do something for another because you believe it is in their best interest, even though they do not want you to do it. (this is the example of my daughter getting swimming lessons)

True enough, my bad.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

The problem is it is clearly not sourced through people who were actually present and is contradictory. Thats all we need to know.

Is sourced by people who are closely related to Ashara and who know people closely related to her. It's not contradictory at all, Allyria claims that they fell in love in Harrenhall, nothing else nothing more. 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

The idea that Ned and Ashara were in love while Ned was bonking Wylla is absolutely contradictory with all we learn about Ned, older or younger.

Ned mat have fell for Ashara at Harrenhall and changed over the war, but ofc that the claims clash with what we know of Ned and ofc we know that Ned did not father any child with Wylla,  so him falling/having a crush on Ashara at Harrenhall can be entirely plausible.

If Allyria fed both infos to Ned then i'd agree, but while Ned blatantly affirms the Wylla thing, his only source about the other is Allirya.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Yet Robert, who grew up with Ned, things that Ned had only one time, and it must have been an amazing girl to make him forget his honour.
Its not just that Ned was not a playa, its that those who know him, and he himself, assess him to be even more uptight than normal people about these things.

Your assessment is meaningnless. Their assessment is not.

Put that on top of the absolute absence of thoughts about Ashara...

True... So either Ned did not have sex with Ashara, or Ned did but did not tell Robert,

Their assestment doon't clash with mine.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, with a baby.
He came back from the south with a bastard. Starfall is the last known location where he was in the south. There is no indication from anyone outside of Ned and the remnants of his band (no public indication from them either, though we have some information that Westerosi don't know), of a baby pre-Starfall visit. Ergo, he came back from Starfall with a baby.
This is backed up by the rumours in Winterfell and from Cersei associating Ashara with Jon.

You're filling a void here, Starfall is the location we know he headed to, not the only place he was, the rest of the place are meaningless, since they had nothing to do with the story at hand which specifically revolved around Starfall because of  Ashara and Arthur and Dawn.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

What people? Only Ned and Howland walked away from ToJ. Ned didn't have any other people at that time. Wylla joined them at some point - either at ToJ or at Starfall. I prefer ToJ scenario myself, but its not certain.

Indeed, that does not say that they headed directly to Starfal, they were likely wounded and would need assistance, someone had to do something with Jon, someone had to pull down the tower etc. 

 

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

She's not mentioned again between Harrenhal and Ned's visit to Starfall. 
Barristan says she was dishonoured at Harrenhal.
Barristan says she had a stillborn child - a bastard. 
Dornish culture may be somewhat more permissive, but a companion to the Targaryen Crown Princess doesn't get to bear a bastard and keep her position. Not in a normal court, even less so in Aerys' court, full of suspicion and infighting.
Dismissed, retired, withdrew, call it what you like. She wasn't at court any more after her unmarried pregnancy was known, you can guarantee that.

- Which means at some point she left, that with Martin's words that she moved  during the war means that she had something to do during the war.

- True.

- What makes you think that her unmarried pregnancy was known??  We are certainly not told that.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Not the same thing.

Because...

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Mostly they don't marry at 14 though, except in times of political need.

There was no political need until Robert's sudden death, then all hell broke loose out of nowhere with Beric involved at court from the start.

Mostly aren't all. They start getting married with 14.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Asha is 22 or 23 at the time the series starts. She's a special case - a ships captain in the Ironborn. She'd actually have happily married she thinks to herself, but she can;t marry Quarl, too lowborn.
And she is already married at the current stage, even if only due to politics, at 24-25.

Case fail.

Your strawman maybe, The point is not that Asha can't marry or will  not marry or even that she d oes not want to marry, the point is that there is no ticking clock for her.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Yeah, shes getting anxious because she's old to be unmarried, proving the point. She's only 24 currently. the only reason she's unmarried is because Doran was saving her secretly for Viserys, then waiting to see how the cards fell after Westeros fell into turmoil.

Case fail again, badly.

You're building your straw man, Arianne  is not getting anxious because she's too old, she's getting anxious because she believes Doran is trying to replace her and that's why he keeps her unmarried. 

People don't think Arianne is too old to be unmaried, even when they seek out her hand, only Arianne thinks that due to sheer paranoia.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

It would be better to find more 'normal' cases than these two exceptional cases if you are trying to make a case that a 26+ (older IMO, if she had ever discussed or observed Ashara's love life before the suicide) year old Allyria isn't unusually old to have a 6 year betrothal to a suitably aged Lord, with the Houses in good standing, in peaceful times (mostly during Robert's reign), and not be married yet.

But one or two cases doesn't really prove anything anyway. The normal paradigm in Westeros, as for almost any civilisation before advanced medicine is for women to be married in their later teens or early twenties - past the early danger zone but during peak fertility and maximum childbearing years.
I don;t see how anyone can argue otherwise in good faith. We aren't talking absolutes, becaase we don't know all (any!) details. We are talking reasonable estimates.

It would be better if we actually knew much about non political dornish matches... we clearly don't as we clearly don't know the situation surrounding her case. Nor did i say that it was usual, i said that we don't know her case and there are others cases in which wait is not a problem.

 

I simply fail to see how can we talk about reasonable estimates when we still don't know so many variables.

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Ahh, so we aren't going to  make character judgement from the actual data, we are going to assume the facts, then make judgement based on those assumptions.

???

1.  Brandon banged her, he left, Ashara had her kid and died.
2. Ned banged her, he left, Ashara had her kid and died.

Is there something else i'm missing??

 

5 hours ago, corbon said:

The civil war didn;t start until many months after Harrenhal.
When Ashara was dishonoured, probably got pregnant, Ned was a free second son with no future bride lined up. Ashara would have been an excellent match for him if he was in a relationship with her.

True and before anything could happen the war started. Whatever thought may had, died there.

Ned went to the Eyrie, stayed a few months there, not many moths, then the war started.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

I missed you saying that before.
But they aren't pure hyperbole. Thats his observation. They are the sum total of his experience, which we don;t think is very much, given his career and character.

Since when observation can't be phrased as hyperbole?? Barristan is not going to think, 8 out of 10 young girls choose fire...

 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

What truth? What a weird statement! Ashara was dishonoured, got pregnant, didn't get married, had a baby and suicided (or faked it). How is any of that mud? Thats a bad fire boy doing fire things, not a serious, sober, boring dutiful mud boy doingn mud things. 

Since Ned didn't get to marry her because he married Cat... you can call him mud, or fire, the result is the same. Ashara's outcome would've been the same be it Brandon, be it Ned.

 

 

 

 

 

[corbon]

well, the quality of the arguments are out there, I'm content.

[The Green Bard]

On 3/16/2020 at 10:49 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Yet it is very rare today, where I would actively think about any of my girlfriends that I had before my wife.  It's just not something I dwell on.

I agree with you.  In fact about fifteen years before beginning to write AGoT, George had some prior relationships that left him heartbroken, so your example is quite apt.