If Ashara =Lemore, what's the sequence of events?

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sigh.  Sometimes I think you guys argue just for the sake of arguing.  I suppose you could interpret it that Ned was just a bad dancer and was too embarrassed to get out the dance floor so Brandon decided he’d get Ashara to teach Ned the waltz.  Or Brandon decided that Ned needed to get laid so he randomly picked out Elia’s lady in waiting, deciding that she and Ned had waited long enough.

Or you know, you can interpret it from the only logical reading of the text.  Ned was smitten by the lovely gal with the laughing purple eyes, but was too shy to ask her to dance.  So his big, bold brother took it upon himself to help his younger brother out.  And there enough noticeable interactions afterwards between the Ned and Ashara at the tourney to generate the tale at Winterfell that Ned and Ashara may have whispered sweet nothings at Harrenhal and shared a kiss or perhaps something more.

And Ned wouldn’t have been the only one smitten by Ashara Dayne.  We know for a fact that Selmy was.  There is also the possibility that the original narrator of the story was as well.  After all Howland’s recount of the tourney seemed to fixate on every single person that Ashara danced with at the tourney.  Much like Lysa Tully fixated on who Petyr danced with back at Riverrun.

Now having said that, I don’t necessarily assume at all that Ned was the one who dishonored Ashara.  (Even though I am very suspicious that Ashara’s true purpose at Harrenhal may very well have been as a seductress).  After all Ned is the honorable sort.  And if Ned wasn’t willing to go “all the way” at the tourney, it just so happens that he had a lusty brother who probably would have been.

As for the lack of Ned’s “reminiscence” of Ashara, it may very well have been that their relationship, whatever it consisted of isn’t a fond memory for Eddard.  Maybe one of the reasons that Ned forbids her name from being mentioned at Winterfell.

Finally, as for the “white sword” that Ashara was dancing with, why do you assume it was Barristan?  I think it’s much more likely that the White Sword Ashara was dancing with, was her brother, Arthur.  After all, he is the White Sword who wielded the white sword.  And it fits in with her other dance partners.  Jon Connington, and Oberyn Martell.  All people who are in Rhaegar and Elia’s inner circle, unlike Barristan.  Here is the hint, Ashara is in the clique and she probably shared secrets with Rhaegar, Elia, Arthur, Jon, and Oberyn that Barristan wasn’t privy to.  

 

To each their own, I suppose. You say that’s “the only logical reading of the text”, but to me not only that’s not the “only” logical interpretation, it isn’t even the most logical. From what we know of Ned, it makes perfect sense to me that he didn’t even want to be there. I can picture him sitting somewhere far from the spotlight and feeling awkward as hell. 

Also, your take on why Ned never thinks of Ashara - at all, not once, not ever - doesn’t work for me. He has other memories of hard, sad, difficult, unpleasant experiences from his past; and we know this because he thinks about them. So to have just Ashara be a different case, regardless of there being a relationship, a crush, good or bad, makes no sense and would feel like a cheat to me. My 2p worth. 

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

To each their own, I suppose. You say that’s “the only logical reading of the text”, but to me not only that’s not the “only” logical interpretation, it isn’t even the most logical. From what we know of Ned, it makes perfect sense to me that he didn’t even want to be there. I can picture him sitting somewhere far from the spotlight and feeling awkward as hell. 

Also, your take on why Ned never thinks of Ashara - at all, not once, not ever - doesn’t work for me. He has other memories of hard, sad, difficult, unpleasant experiences from his past; and we know this because he thinks about them. So to have just Ashara be a different case, regardless of there being a relationship, a crush, good or bad, makes no sense and would feel like a cheat to me. My 2p worth. 

Well Ned also never thinks about Rhaegar being Jon’s dad, or Robert being a threat to Jon, or Rhaegar and Lyanna having a consensual relationship.  I mean, you can’t have it both ways.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well Ned also never thinks about Rhaegar being Jon’s dad, or Robert being a threat to Jon, or Rhaegar and Lyanna having a consensual relationship.  I mean, you can’t have it both ways.

He does think about all of them though. And it’s quite obvious we can’t have Ned thinking how R+L=J or why Robert is a threat b/c then there’d be no mystery, the whole thing would have been spelled out. 

[The Map Guy]

11 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

On 3/12/2020 at 11:25 PM, The Map Guy said:

I know, but Lemongate & R+L=D & baby swap are complicated ideas

Sure.  I am not arguing all 3 though, only the first.  u/hollowaydivision wrote the best stand-alone defense of it on reddit, independent of the other 2

I took that refresher Reddit course on Lemongate, and without R+L=D, baby swap ... what is the purpose of Lemongate? What is the payoff?

From that Reddit Post:

Quote

TL;DR: Lemongate is the simple, irrefutable fact that Dany's House with the Red Door was not in Braavos. This does NOT mean R+L=D, and it does NOT disqualify R+L=J. However, it IS a clue of some importance, as confirmed by George himself. Let's start by accepting that, and work from there. What other twists could Dany's false childhood be leading up to?

Lemongate doesn't lead anywhere of importance other than R+L=D
If we remove the R+L=D formula, we have "Lemon tree was never in Braavos, it was in Dorne! ... stay tune for the explanation GRRM gives us!"

Well the general consensus without Lemongate is that "Lemon trees generally don't grow in Braavos, but Dany was still in Braavos ... stay tune for the explanation that GRRM gives us!"

Is there really a difference? Other than Lemongate requires us to delete given information and substitute it with ridiculous ideas. And the only way to justify these ridiculous ideas is to bring up more ridiculous ideas that contradict given information again ... like Ashara is alive, Lord Dustin is alive ... etc.

The purpose of Lemongate will always circle back to R+L=D, and that doesn't work since Jon is older than Dany by 9 months. What is the explanation then? Catelyn just couldn't tell the 9 months age difference of baby Jon and baby Robb?

11 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

To me, none of the possible implications of GRRM's repeatedly reminding us of the lemon / lattitude issue clearly fits your definition of Occam's razor.

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy does not delete given information. Dany said she was in Braavos. Oberyn was in Braavos, with Darry and the Sealord for the marriage pact. These are given information.

Oberyn bringing a lemon tree over from Dorne as a gift fills in an empty blank.

The secret marriage pact signifies Dorne as Targaryen loyalists since RR. But no one alive can verify that pact. Viserys is dead, Oberyn is dead, Darry is dead, Sealord is dead.

The payoff is that when Doran mentions the lemon tree nonchalantly to Dany ... she (along with us, the readers) will have that OHHHHHHHHHH moment.

Off-topic: Anyone watches How I Met Your Mother? Remember the "Who is Carlos" gimmick and the "OHHHHHHHH" payoff? Smart writing

Occam's Razor ... no given information deleted, empty blanks filled, simple plausible explanation, and great payoff.

12 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

I love the take on bat out of hell.  The whole record is amazing in it's own imagery.  Your tie to ASoIaF certainly reminds me of the slander about Sansa sprouting the wings of a bat and escaping kings landing, which I cover in this essay.

I'll take time to read it later. I should have a bit more free time now that current Bat Out of Hell is creeping up around people I know here in New York City. Sooner or later, there will be siege here and toilet paper is already flying off the shelves. We need a Toilet Paper Knight to smuggle us some toilet paper here.

12 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

It's too bad Ashara Dayne's mother's identity is unknown.  If she also can tie it back to Harrenhal, Sansa's experience might foreshadow a reveal about her living through her tower fall.  GRRM may even be planning to add it!  This is of course highly unlikely.

I believe Sansa & SanDor will voluntarily fly out of the Moon Door as they are surrounded by zombies & fire ... during a White Walker attack in the Vale.

Proof? I don't have none, but that SanSan scene would jam to Free Bird by Lynyrd Skynyrd

Lord I can't change!
Won't you flyyyyy highhhhhh, freeeee bird!!

 

12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Howland indicated that Brandon approached Ashara on behalf of Ned who was too shy to do it himself, the only reasonable interpretation was the Ned was interested in Ashara but he was too shy to approach her himself.

Brandon was playing a game called "Haveeeee you met Ned?"

 

 

[lehutin]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or you know, you can interpret it from the only logical reading of the text.  Ned was smitten by the lovely gal with the laughing purple eyes, but was too shy to ask her to dance.

That's far from the only logical reading of the text. That's a reading that inserts an extensive amount of reader bias into the text.

 

Again, the only thing Meera says is that Ned and Ashara danced. After Brandon asked Ashara. On behalf of a brother "too shy to leave his bench."

 

Meera says nothing about Ned being smitten with Ashara but too shy to ask her to dance. That's your interpretation based on your biases.

 

Just contrast Meera's telling of Ashara's dances with Meera's telling of Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar singing:

Quote

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.

A "sniffle" isn't much. But it's far, far, far more suggestive of Lyanna being smitten with Rhaegar than "too shy to leave his bench" Ned being smitten with Ashara. And Howland/Meera confirms what we already knew from Ned's memories that the feelings were mutual:

Quote

“...the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”

“She was,” said Meera, “but that’s a sadder story.”

 

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for the lack of Ned’s “reminiscence” of Ashara, it may very well have been that their relationship, whatever it consisted of isn’t a fond memory for Eddard.

How inconveniently unfortunate for Eddard Stark that he was able to block his memories of Ashara Dayne, but he wasn't able to block other traumatic, un-fond memories of

1. "promise me, Ned"
2. the Tower of Joy
3. the manner in which Rhaenys and Aegon were killed
4. "the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost."

[Frey family reunion]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

He does think about all of them though. And it’s quite obvious we can’t have Ned thinking how R+L=J or why Robert is a threat b/c then there’d be no mystery, the whole thing would have been spelled out. 

Ned only thinks about Rhaegar after Robert brings him up repeatedly.  And then Ned's predominate concern is the Lannisters treatment of Rhaegar's children, and the war crimes he believes they did at the Sack.  

But yes, I agree that we the author picks and chooses which thoughts and memories he wishes to share from his POV characters to maintain a sense of mystery.  But that could be the very reason that the author has kept Eddard's thoughts about Ashara from us.  He doesn't want to reveal certain mysteries concerning Eddard and Ashara.  Once again you can't have it both ways.  You can't on one hand claim not being privy to Ned thinking about Jon not being his actual son, or Jon being Lyanna's son, or Jon being Rhaegar's son, or Robert being a threat to Jon ect. ect. is only to keep the mystery intact.  And then on the other hand claim that the reason we aren't made privy to Ned's thoughts and feelings about Ashara is because he didn't have any thoughts or feelings towards her.  This is pretty hypocritical.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, lehutin said:

That's far from the only logical reading of the text. That's a reading that inserts an extensive amount of reader bias into the text.

 

Again, the only thing Meera says is that Ned and Ashara danced. After Brandon asked Ashara. On behalf of a brother "too shy to leave his bench."

 

Meera says nothing about Ned being smitten with Ashara but too shy to ask her to dance. That's your interpretation based on your biases.

 

Just contrast Meera's telling of Ashara's dances with Meera's telling of Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar singing:

A "sniffle" isn't much. But it's far, far, far more suggestive of Lyanna being smitten with Rhaegar than "too shy to leave his bench" Ned being smitten with Ashara. And Howland/Meera confirms what we already knew from Ned's memories that the feelings were mutual:

 

How inconveniently unfortunate for Eddard Stark that he was able to block his memories of Ashara Dayne, but he wasn't able to block other traumatic, un-fond memories of

1. "promise me, Ned"
2. the Tower of Joy
3. the manner in which Rhaenys and Aegon were killed
4. "the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost."

It has nothing to do with reader's biases.  I could care less if Ned and Ashara had some type of relationship at the Harrenhal tourney.  But at the same time, I simply can't ignore the clear readings of the text and the information that we've received throughout the story and conclude that Ned and Ashara had some type of relationship which at least started at the Harrenhal tourney.

Quote

He looked at her uncomfortably.  "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal ___"

Quote

"Aye, he told me.  Lady Ashara Dayne.  It's an old tale, that one.  I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now....  I doubt there's any truth to it.  But if there is, what of it?  When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor.  There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say?  Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that?  Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.

Quote

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

 

So in your analysis all these tales from Starfall and Winterfell arose out of whole cloth?  Because Ned shared a dance with Ashara and nothing more? 

In your analysis why does Ned travel to Starfall of all places to return a sword, while dragging a baby and his dead sister through the mountains enemy territory to someone that Ned is indifferent to?

I understand that the gut reaction is to make this story as simple as possible, and to relegate parts of the book that don't fit your head canon as merely red herrings placed in by the author to mislead or misdirect us.  But I think we have to come to terms that the book and the underlying mysteries are more complicated than Jon merely being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna made from a doomed unrequited love affair.

I don't personally believe that Jon is the son of Ashara and Ned.  I'm also very skeptical that Ned was the one who dishonored Ashara at the tourney.  But it's very clear to me that Ned and Ashara did indeed develop some type of relationship at Harrenhal, that at least on the outside looking in very much seemed to be a romantic one.  I think there is a motive for Ned returning to Starfall that goes beyond the return of an ancestral sword.  

It's very possible that there exists mysteries and secrets arising from these events that go beyond Jon's parentage.  

 

[lehutin]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I could care less if Ned and Ashara had some type of relationship at the Harrenhal tourney.  But at the same time, I simply can't ignore the clear readings of the text and the information that we've received throughout the story and conclude that Ned and Ashara had some type of relationship which at least started at the Harrenhal tourney.

Meera's story is very important because it's a secondary source from a primary source (Howland) who attended the Tourney at Harrenhal in close proximity with the Starks. And Meera's story says nothing about Ned being smitten with Ashara!

 

Let's examine your quotes more closely. First, there's the one from Edric Dayne:

Quote

“My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—”

But do we know that Allyria was at Harrenhal? No. More importantly, prior to this quote, Edric Dayne states his belief that Wylla is Jon Snow's mother, and that it isn't a secret or a big deal whatsoever.

Quote

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

So if you trust Edric Dayne, then wow, Eddard Stark was a playa in his youth. He had a romantic fling with the legendarily hawt Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, and he had a bastard son with Wylla the wet-nurse. Dayum!

 

But does that sound like the Eddard Stark we know? If it doesn't, then perhaps you should consider the possibility that Edric Dayne isn't a credibly informed source?

 

As for Harwin's quote, c'mon, did you read what he actually said to Arya?

Quote

“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor.

Harwin heard the rumor as a child at Winterfell (most likely before Ned and Cat had "the talk"), and he even tells Arya that

1. he doesn't believe the rumor is true,
2. even if were true, it wouldn't matter because Ned wasn't betrothed to Cat back then.

Lastly, regarding Barristan's quote,

Quote

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He doesn't say which "Stark." Given that Barristan disapproved of Dany's labeling Ned Stark "a traitor who met a traitor's end,"

Quote

A flicker of disapproval crossed the old man’s face, but it was not his way to question his queen. “As you command.”

it seems unlikely that "Stark" referred to Ned.

 

To summarize, of your three example sources,

1. one of them implies that Ned Stark was a playa
2. one of them personally doesn't think there was anything "there" between Ned and Ashara
3. one of them doesn't even explicitly name Ned Stark.

That's all incredibly weak "information" that Ned and Ashara had a thing going on at Harrenhal. So it is most definitely massive reader bias to interpret these that way and combine them with Meera's story to argue that Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself.

[corbon]

On 3/14/2020 at 4:37 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Or you know, you can interpret it from the only logical reading of the text.  

Thats not the only logical reading of the text. Its not even the most logical reading. Its merely one possible reading, and our brains are tricked into thinking its 'the obvious' reading by the repeated previous fake setups for N+A. Take those away and read it with neutral eyes and its a whole new ball game.

On 3/14/2020 at 4:37 PM, Frey family reunion said:

And there enough noticeable interactions afterwards between Ned and Ashara at the tourney to generate the tale at Winterfell that Ned and Ashara may have whispered sweet nothings at Harrenhal and shared a kiss or perhaps something more.

No there are not. Thats inventing evidence from inference, rather than infering things from evidence.
Its just as plausible that people retro-gossiped about Harrenhal after Ned came back to Winterfell after his visit to Starfall. With a bastard. And the news that Ashara Dayne, the lovely maiden he and Brandon hung out with at Harrenhal, committed suicide.

There is currently no evidence at all for interactions between Ned and Ashara at Harrenhal beyond the dance Ashara did at Brandon's request.

On 3/14/2020 at 4:37 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Finally, as for the “white sword” that Ashara was dancing with, why do you assume it was Barristan?  I think it’s much more likely that the White Sword Ashara was dancing with, was her brother, Arthur.  After all, he is the White Sword who wielded the white sword.  

Agreed.

On 3/14/2020 at 4:37 PM, Frey family reunion said:

And it fits in with her other dance partners.  Jon Connington, and Oberyn Martell.  All people who are in Rhaegar and Elia’s inner circle, unlike Barristan.  Here is the hint, Ashara is in the clique and she probably shared secrets with Rhaegar, Elia, Arthur, Jon, and Oberyn that Barristan wasn’t privy to.  

Indeed.

[corbon]

On 3/15/2020 at 5:06 AM, Frey family reunion said:

 Once again you can't have it both ways.  You can't on one hand claim not being privy to Ned thinking about Jon not being his actual son, or Jon being Lyanna's son, or Jon being Rhaegar's son, or Robert being a threat to Jon ect. ect. is only to keep the mystery intact.  And then on the other hand claim that the reason we aren't made privy to Ned's thoughts and feelings about Ashara is because he didn't have any thoughts or feelings towards her.  This is pretty hypocritical.

Its a dishonest comparison to call not treating these two things the same as hypocritical. They are not remotely the same.

On the one hand Ned things about these things a lot, but there's no clear and direct conclusions given to us, only indirect data points. But there is a lot of thoughts around the subject matter - his relationship with Jon, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert's attitudes.
On the other hand there is... nothing. Not a single thought about Ashara, even indirectly. At best one banning of a name he didn't even mention where there is clear, explicit and direct explanation from him that his focus is on something else, not that name in particualr. 

On 3/15/2020 at 5:26 AM, Frey family reunion said:

So in your analysis all these tales from Starfall and Winterfell arose out of whole cloth?  Because Ned shared a dance with Ashara and nothing more? 

No Because Ned came back from Starfall with a bastard son and Ashara Dayne committed suicide.

On 3/15/2020 at 5:26 AM, Frey family reunion said:

In your analysis why does Ned travel to Starfall of all places to return a sword, while dragging a baby and his dead sister through the mountains enemy territory to someone that Ned is indifferent to?

Because its frikken Dawn, an absolutely unique sword that one of the oldest and most storied Houses in Westeros is absolutely defined by. And because Ned understands honour, and understands respect.
Its also the single place in Westeros most likely to be sympathetic to Lyanna and Rhaegar's son and although its through the mountains (which is the same of all places, since he's in the middle of a twin mountain range) its also relatively close and a likely place he can take a ship from without exposing himself (Jon) too much to public gaze.

On 3/15/2020 at 5:26 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I don't personally believe that Jon is the son of Ashara and Ned.  I'm also very skeptical that Ned was the one who dishonored Ashara at the tourney.

I agree.

On 3/15/2020 at 5:26 AM, Frey family reunion said:

 But it's very clear to me that Ned and Ashara did indeed develop some type of relationship at Harrenhal, that at least on the outside looking in very much seemed to be a romantic one.  I think there is a motive for Ned returning to Starfall that goes beyond the return of an ancestral sword.  

I disagree. I've shown why I think thats sloppy inference in some detail. Its your prerogative to continue to think that way, so be it. 

On 3/15/2020 at 5:26 AM, Frey family reunion said:

It's very possible that there exists mysteries and secrets arising from these events that go beyond Jon's parentage.  

Lots of things are possible. And not everything in the series is about Jon.

Frankly, I think Ashara faked her suicide because she went off with f(Aegon), and Ned's presence at Starfall at the time worked out well for both of them. 

[corbon]

23 hours ago, lehutin said:

So if you trust Edric Dayne, then wow, Eddard Stark was a playa in his youth. He had a romantic fling with the legendarily hawt Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal, and he had a bastard son with Wylla the wet-nurse. Dayum!

Thats would be the Ned who was never the boy he was. Whom his best friend (and real playa) Robert really wanted to meet the woman who could make Ned forget his precious honour that one time. Who couldn't be accused of taking his pleasures.

Its absolute nonsense really, highlighted by the fact that according to Ned Dayne, Ned and Ashara were in love, yet Ned was fucking Wylla. So Ned's not just a playa, he's the sort of playa who keeps playing while actually in love.
Ned Dayne is a clueless (in terms of adult romantic relationships) little boy relating gossip told by a clueless little girl.

23 hours ago, lehutin said:

But does that sound like the Eddard Stark we know? If it doesn't, then perhaps you should consider the possibility that Edric Dayne isn't a credibly informed source?

Well, his source is his aunt Allyria. She might be Ashara's sister, but somehow she's been betrothed for more than 6 years to a mid twenties Lord with the families still on excellent terms but no marriage yet.
If she was old enough to even talk with Ashara before the suicide, let alone old enough to understand relationships, Allyria would be mid-late twenties by now, practically an old maid in that culture.
Its considerably more likely she's actually still too young for the marriage to go ahead - probably Ashara's not-stillborn-daughter rather than sister.

23 hours ago, lehutin said:

Lastly, regarding Barristan's quote,

He doesn't say which "Stark." Given that Barristan disapproved of Dany's labeling Ned Stark "a traitor who met a traitor's end,"

it seems unlikely that "Stark" referred to Ned.

Even more unlikely if you take Barristan's thoughts about young women and how they always (in his experience, therefore including Ashara) choose "fire men" which burn them rather than "mud men" who are good for them. Ned or Brandon again?

 

[frenin]

On 3/14/2020 at 4:59 AM, kissdbyfire said:

To each their own, I suppose. You say that’s “the only logical reading of the text”, but to me not only that’s not the “only” logical interpretation, it isn’t even the most logical. From what we know of Ned, it makes perfect sense to me that he didn’t even want to be there. I can picture him sitting somewhere far from the spotlight and feeling awkward as hell. 

Nah, Ned had the time of his life at Harrenhall, he isn't a party animal, that's not to say he does not enjoy a good one now and then, i certainly never pictured him akward and he certainly does not come off as shy neither before, when he is noticed to be angry at Rhaegar, nor after as lord., i agree there with @Frey family reunion that the reason he was shy there is because he had a crush on Ashara and did not know how to act on it. Nor that it makes sense for Ned to be awkward, he was among his siblings and his bannermem, he was among his own people. Ned is never described as a shy/awkward person, just as Jon is never described as a shy person, they are both described as quiet people, nor they are described as Stannis's like.

On 3/14/2020 at 4:59 AM, kissdbyfire said:

 Also, your take on why Ned never thinks of Ashara - at all, not once, not ever - doesn’t work for me. He has other memories of hard, sad, difficult, unpleasant experiences from his past; and we know this because he thinks about them. So to have just Ashara be a different case, regardless of there being a relationship, a crush, good or bad, makes no sense and would feel like a cheat to me. My 2p worth. 

I also think that there could not have been love... or even friendship with her, Ned does remember people he had a meaningful relationship with.

 

On 3/14/2020 at 2:15 PM, lehutin said:

A "sniffle" isn't much. But it's far, far, far more suggestive of Lyanna being smitten with Rhaegar than "too shy to leave his bench" Ned being smitten with Ashara. And Howland/Meera confirms what we already knew from Ned's memories that the feelings were mutual:

Actually it isn't. Both are suggesting the same attraction, it's not like people who feel attraction for someone and aren't as bold as Brandon don't act shy when they had a crush on someone. Don't really know what Howland or Ned confirms but i suppose that's not the point.

 

 

On 3/14/2020 at 10:26 PM, lehutin said:

it seems unlikely that "Stark" referred to Ned.

 

To summarize, of your three example sources,

1. one of them implies that Ned Stark was a playa
2. one of them personally doesn't think there was anything "there" between Ned and Ashara
3. one of them doesn't even explicitly name Ned Stark.

That's all incredibly weak "information" that Ned and Ashara had a thing going on at Harrenhal. So it is most definitely massive reader bias to interpret these that way and combine them with Meera's story to argue that Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself.

It feel over the tone the mocking attitude.

I don't really see it as weak info, it could be either way because the main obstacle to the theory is Ned's persona/personality. Every source cites Ned however, Brandon having a fling with Ashara is completely possible and yet Brandon's name is never mentioned. 

Meera's story does say that Ned really wanted to dance with Ashara but was too shy to ask her himself tho.

 

22 hours ago, corbon said:

 Its absolute nonsense really, highlighted by the fact that according to Ned Dayne, Ned and Ashara were in love, yet Ned was fucking Wylla. So Ned's not just a playa, he's the sort of playa who keeps playing while actually in love.
 Ned Dayne is a clueless (in terms of adult romantic relationships) little boy relating gossip told by a clueless little girl.

That just tell us that there is one info that is wrong, given that we know that Jon is not Wylla's son and Ned told Ned that a Wylla was Jon's mother, we can safely say what is the info. Since we don't know how little or how clueless the girl really is i find that argument irrelevant. If Dayne was told that Ned and Ashara were in love and that Ned and Wylla had Jon, it could that both are right, both are false, the first is right, the second is right and so on.

 

22 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats would be the Ned who was never the boy he was. Whom his best friend (and real playa) Robert really wanted to meet the woman who could make Ned forget his precious honour that one time. Who couldn't be accused of taking his pleasures.

That is a far more interesting argument, i find it really hard to believe, not impossible, that Ned had a fling without telling Robert for x reasons. Who knows tho.

 

22 hours ago, corbon said:

No Because Ned came back from Starfall with a bastard son and Ashara Dayne committed suicide.

He came back from Dorne with a bastard son, not specifically from Starfall, the idea that it was Ashara must come from a previous relationship that connects both events and give people a plausible theiry.

 

 

22 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, his source is his aunt Allyria. She might be Ashara's sister, but somehow she's been betrothed for more than 6 years to a mid twenties Lord with the families still on excellent terms but no marriage yet.
If she was old enough to even talk with Ashara before the suicide, let alone old enough to understand relationships, Allyria would be mid-late twenties by now, practically an old maid in that culture.
Its considerably more likely she's actually still too young for the marriage to go ahead - probably Ashara's not-stillborn-daughter rather than sister.

Because Robb never talked with Bran about complicated stuff right?? If she was Ashara's not still born daughter, she would be marrid already. Arianne is old and unmarried, just as Asha and a couple of boys. Btw, Dornish culture=/Westerosi culture.  

 

22 hours ago, corbon said:

Even more unlikely if you take Barristan's thoughts about young women and how they always (in his experience, therefore including Ashara) choose "fire men" which burn them rather than "mud men" who are good for them. Ned or Brandon again?

Ned or Brandon?? Ned would've caused far more damage, so why would there be a difference?? If Ned dishonored, he left her, married another woman, killed her brother, she commited suicide./ Brandon commited suicide (...) was killed by Aerys...

Both Brandon and Ned can be fire  there because mud is clearly Barri  B.

 

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

ts a dishonest comparison to call not treating these two things the same as hypocritical. They are not remotely the same.

On the one hand Ned things about these things a lot, but there's no clear and direct conclusions given to us, only indirect data points. But there is a lot of thoughts around the subject matter - his relationship with Jon, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert's attitudes.
On the other hand there is... nothing. Not a single thought about Ashara, even indirectly. At best one banning of a name he didn't even mention where there is clear, explicit and direct explanation from him that his focus is on something else, not that name in particualr. 

No, it's not at all.  You can't have it both ways.  There were a lot of conversations that Ned had with Robert that should have brought up his POV thoughts regarding Jon's parentage.  Yet it doesn't because presumably the author does not want to reveal his hand.  The same can be said about Ned's relationship with Ashara.  There may be a mystery regarding their relationship that the author wants to save as a reveal.  

And if you want a more practical argument that I can base on practical experience, I have been happily married for a good number of years.  Before my marriage I had a small number of fairly long term relationships with other women.  Yet it is very rare today, where I would actively think about any of my girlfriends that I had before my wife.  It's just not something I dwell on.

I would assume that Ned is the same.  He could have had a relationship before he married Cat, yet now he is happily married to Cat, and has no reason to think back upon the girl who he may have previously been in a relationship with, or maybe even previously been in love with.  Barristan on the other hand, doesn't have a serious relationship with a woman, and perhaps he has never had one.  So all he has are memories and perhaps regrets of things that he missed out on his years of service, Ashara being the one most predominate in his memory.

If you want to argue that Ned's lack of POV regarding Ashara proves that Ashara isn't Jon's mother, than fine have it.  I personally don't think Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, but I also think it's a bit dodgy to try and pick and choose which of Ned's POV's that the reader is made privy to, as good evidence one way or the other.

Now what no one is talking about is a middle ground here.  Just because Ned may indeed have started a relationship with Ashara at the Harrenhal tourney, doesn't also necessarily mean that Ned was the one who dishonored her.  Ned's sense of honor may have prevented him "dishonoring" Ashara.  Now, if Ashara was hell bent on being dishonored, there were presumably a number of people at the tourney that would have been more than happy to have accommodated her, Ned's older brother being perhaps one.

And wouldn't it be very Ned like to be in a relationship with someone who was carrying someone else's child, and when Ned became aware he does not attempt to quash any rumors that her child was his.

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

No there are not. Thats inventing evidence from inference, rather than infering things from evidence.
Its just as plausible that people retro-gossiped about Harrenhal after Ned came back to Winterfell after his visit to Starfall. With a bastard. And the news that Ashara Dayne, the lovely maiden he and Brandon hung out with at Harrenhal, committed suicide.

Perhaps if the "rumor" was just among the washerwomen at Winterfell, I would agree with you.  But it's not.  It's also the word around Ashara's family.  It seems very unlikely that they would have jumped to a conclusion that Ashara was in love with Ned because she jumped off a tower when he brought her slain brother's sword back to her.  The only logical explanation, is that Ned and Ashara had indeed started a relationship around the time of Harrenhal.  

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Nah, Ned had the time of his life at Harrenhall, he isn't a party animal, that's not to say he does not enjoy a good one now and then, i certainly never pictured him akward and he certainly does not come off as shy neither before, when he is noticed to be angry at Rhaegar, nor after as lord., i agree there with @Frey family reunion that the reason he was shy there is because he had a crush on Ashara and did not know how to act on it. Nor that it makes sense for Ned to be awkward, he was among his siblings and his bannermem, he was among his own people. Ned is never described as a shy/awkward person, just as Jon is never described as a shy person, they are both described as quiet people, nor they are described as Stannis's like.

Except he wasn’t “among his own people”. Also, according to Meera’s account, he was too shy to leave his bench. 

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Except he wasn’t “among his own people”. Also, according to Meera’s account, he was too shy to leave his bench. 

He was among his own people, he was with his siblings and he was with the northern lords, i fairly doubt how could he be more confortable, and he was too shy to leave his bench... To ask Ashara a dance. Ned, again, is never said to be shy, the one time he is a beatiful girl is involved... Honestly, things could be clearier but then we're getting into the absurd debate of "why does not Ned think of Jon as his nephew"  I don't really think that Martin is trying to spoil our fan and while I'm not sure whether Ned or Ashara had a thing, i think it's very much obvious that at least for time he had a crush on her.

Ned's own recollections of Harrenhall weren't those of the awkward kid, he had fun there.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

He was among his own people, he was with his siblings and he was with the northern lords, i fairly doubt how could he be more confortable, and he was too shy to leave his bench... To ask Ashara a dance.

Ned's own recollections of Harrenhall weren't those of the awkward kid, he had fun there.

Yea, I agree.  To be honest, I'm a bit surprised about this blow back that Ned was interested in Ashara at Harrenhal.  Why is there such resistance to this idea, that Ned may have had a romantic interest before Cat?

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

He was among his own people, he was with his siblings and he was with the northern lords, i fairly doubt how could he be more confortable, and he was too shy to leave his bench... To ask Ashara a dance.

His siblings + possibly hundreds of strangers, in a festive/social setting that we know isn’t really Ned’s cuppa. I mean, even w/ Robert at Winterfell he wasn’t all that, “yay! Partay!”. 

And sorry, but nowhere is it said he was too shy to ask Ashara to dance. You’re conflating two things: 1) Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned; 2) Ned was too shy to leave his bench. 

Is it possible Ned wanted to ask Ashara to dance and didn’t because he was too shy? Sure. But that’s not my own take on it.

Quote

Ned's own recollections of Harrenhall weren't those of the awkward kid, he had fun there.

Where can we find this info? I don’t recall any other instance where Ned thinks about the tourney at Harrenhal, let alone about how much fun he had there. The one time I remember is when Ned thinks about it and thinks “when all smiles died” or something like that. Doesn’t really sound like it’s a happy memory of an event where he had much fun.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I agree.  To be honest, I'm a bit surprised about this blow back that Ned was interested in Ashara at Harrenhal.  Why is there such resistance to this idea, that Ned may have had a romantic interest before Cat?

I have no problem whatsoever w/ Ned being interested in Ashara, or having had a crush or a fling or babies w/ her. I just don’t see it from what we get in the text. As I’ve said up thread, to each their own. 

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

His siblings + possibly hundreds of strangers, in a festive/social setting that we know isn’t really Ned’s cuppa. I mean, even w/ Robert at Winterfell he wasn’t all that, “yay! Partay!”. 

We know perfectly the reason for why Ned was tense in Winterfell and it wasn't because he was out of his element. As i said, not before not after, Ned is described as a shy, the one time he is Ashara is on the mix.. And Ned could in fact enjoy the party anyway, Ned was not sit with possibly hundreds of strangers, he was sit with his fellow northmen.  He was not tense or shy in the Hand of the Tourney, even when he was ok with the event.

 

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And sorry, but nowhere is it said he was too shy to ask Ashara to dance. You’re conflating two things: 1) Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned; 2) Ned was too shy to leave his bench. 

Is it possible Ned wanted to ask Ashara to dance and didn’t because he was too shy? Sure. But that’s not my own take on it.

We are said that Brandon spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. If Ned was too shy in general or wasn't confortable there, Brandon would not have acted on Ned's behalf.

 

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Where can we find this info? I don’t recall any other instance where Ned thinks about the tourney at Harrenhal, let alone about how much fun he had there. The one time I remember is when Ned thinks about it that II remember is the “when all smiles died” or something like that. Doesn’t really sound like it’s a happy memory of an event where he had much fun.

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon's laughter, and Robert's berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king's pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Os well Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.
Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. 

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

Sure, things went south at the end, but he enjoyed himself there.