Westworld IX; 03.22.20 Divergence - Westeros.org

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Getting boring.....

[Nictarion]

40 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Getting boring.....

I have to agree. That one didn’t do much for me. 

Pink Floyd at the end was the best part. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Nictarion said:

I have to agree. That one didn’t do much for me. 

Pink Floyd at the end was the best part. 

Hopefully y'all stayed beyond the credits. There's kind of major parts of the epilogue there.

[Cas Stark]

That was kind of a mess.  Other than the Maeve/Dolores meadow meet up, it was all a bit meh and not very memorable.  If you pressed me, the only thing I can think of off hand this season that really resonated, other than the beautiful sets, was Maeve and Lee Sizemore, and  maybe the all Ed Harris therapy session.  Caleb's character, whatever.  

[Nictarion]

33 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Hopefully y'all stayed beyond the credits. There's kind of major parts of the epilogue there.

Fuck

[DMC]

29 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If you pressed me, the only thing I can think of off hand this season that really resonated, other than the beautiful sets, was Maeve and Lee Sizemore, and  maybe the all Ed Harris therapy session.  Caleb's character, whatever.  

Well, I'd say the entire Genre episode was pretty fucking cool.  But other than that, yeah, not that great overall.  Seemed pretty damn spotty for anything I've ever seen from a Nolan other than the third Batman.  At least it was straightforward with no twists though!  As for Caleb, meh, we'll see.  Really in Westworld-perspective, he's only just now actually become an active character.

I was talking with my brother after the ep and he was like "so you think Evan Rachel Wood is leaving the show."  I was like "Well.." and then we recounted all the Dolores' that may or may not be out there.  There's Charlotte-Dolores, who appears set up to be the big bad next season.  There's now apparently Lazo-Dolores.  My brother pointed out we still don't technically know what's became of Musashi-Dolores.  And there's damaged Connels-Dolores that should still be in Charlotte-Dolores' custody.  Westworld Season 4:  War of the Four Dolores'!

[Kalbear]

I thought that the world itself was fucking amazing. The various methods of control that were used, the way things looked and felt, the new tech mixed in with the older areas, the evolutions of fashion. It felt big and alive in ways that most sci-fi future stories don't end up looking due to budget. 

I love how they had so much of it outside in big areas with streets and giant buildings. Things were dark and gritty, but they weren't cramped like, say, Altered Carbon was. It felt very Blade-Runnery. 

Bernard's storyline was a waste. It could have entirely been cut and the show would have been fine. 

[Corvinus85]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Bernard's storyline was a waste. It could have entirely been cut and the show would have been fine. 

Bernard was effectively a passenger to the larger story.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Bernard was effectively a passenger to the larger story.

Yeah, Bernard may have been a tool, but he was a pretty integral tool in getting Maeve on Doloros-Prime's side.

[Kalbear]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, Bernard may have been a tool, but he was a pretty integral tool in getting Maeve on Doloros-Prime's side.

Only because Dolores couldn't just tell Maeve that when she saw her? A whole lot of this plot was effectively 'don't talk to each other because reasons'. Dolores just tells Maeve that, lets Maeve into her mind, and Maeve's on her side since, like, ep 4. 

[DMC]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Only because Dolores couldn't just tell Maeve that when she saw her? A whole lot of this plot was effectively 'don't talk to each other because reasons'. Dolores just tells Maeve that, lets Maeve into her mind, and Maeve's on her side since, like, ep 4. 

Well..let's think about her telling Maeve.  When Musashi-Dolores first meets Maeve this season, she knows she's working for Serac, so why would Dolores tell Maeve where she stashed the key that Serac is looking for virulently?  The next times they meet, Dolores tries to tell Maeve out of killing her.  Dolores simply trusting Maeve right off the bat with the knowledge of where the "sublime" could be accessed (I really don't like that term btw) would be just as illogical as Maeve trusting Dolores right off the bat.

As for "just letting Maeve into her mind," I dunno.  Maeve does simply ask just that earlier in the ep and Dolores refuses.  I think some of this can be explained by Dolores making the confab with Maeve in the meadow her new cornerstone memory.  It's harder to get to than just looking into her mind.  Just as it was for Bernard with Arnold's wife.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Well..let's think about her telling Maeve.  When Musashi-Dolores first meets Maeve this season, she knows she's working for Serac, so why would Dolores tell Maeve where she stashed the key that Serac is looking for virulently?  The next times they meet, Dolores tries to tell Maeve out of killing her.  Dolores simply trusting Maeve right off the bat with the knowledge of where the "sublime" could be accessed (I really don't like that term btw) would be just as illogical as Maeve trusting Dolores right off the bat. 

As for "just letting Maeve into her mind," I dunno.  Maeve does simply ask just that earlier in the ep and Dolores refuses.  I think some of this can be explained by Dolores making the confab with Maeve in the meadow her new cornerstone memory.  It's harder to get to than just looking into her mind.  Just as it was for Bernard with Arnold's wife.

Maeve, given enough time, would have the power. But really, Dolores could at some point simply told Maeve that she doesn't have the key either. Her telling Maeve right before she dies was essentially a hail mary, but she wouldn't have to do that if she just tells Maeve right then. 

And she doesn't have to say where it is or even who has it - just verify that she doesn't, and show her that the reason she doesn't is because she doesn't trust herself with it. There are a lot of ways she could have done this, including the way she ended up doing it with Bernard in season 2 - erasing her own memory so that she doesn't incriminate Bernard later. It was just a very convenient thing based on the idea that no one wanted to actually reveal what was going on too early, which is kind of bullshit. 

Same really goes for Caleb. She couldn't have told Caleb that the reason he was important to her was because he showed basic human decency back in the day? Or that he's been mind controlled and mind wiped countless times? Just...why not talk to each other? 

At least Hale had good reasons to not talk to anyone about this bullshit, but everyone else...ugh.

Also, what was the point of the last Dolores copy? And why does she just have a couple random SFPD hanging out with him? That seemed so very bizarre. What's the point of any of that?

[DMC]

27 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But really, Dolores could at some point simply told Maeve that she doesn't have the key either. Her telling Maeve right before she dies was essentially a hail mary, but she wouldn't have to do that if she just tells Maeve right then. 

The first time Maeve meets Musashi-Dolores in episode 4 Maeve does not seem in a diplomatic mood.  Mushashi-Dolores tells Maeve she doesn't have it then and then what?  Maeve just believes her?  No, she'd want confirmation in some way, which would open up Dolores to vulnerabilities in some way no matter how you slice it.  Not to mention the possibility Maeve may relay that information to Serac.  It'd be entirely strategically stupid for Musashi-Dolores to trust Maeve then, too much of a risk you're giving Serac what he wants.  Which is pretty much exactly what Musashi-Dolores says in episode 4 to Maeve before he/she kills her.  I really don't think this is a "convenience" thing the way you're presenting it, it makes sense based on each character's motivations.

27 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

She couldn't have told Caleb that the reason he was important to her was because he showed basic human decency back in the day? Or that he's been mind controlled and mind wiped countless times? Just...why not talk to each other? 

Yeah that one I agree with.  Obviously contrived.  ETA:  Alternative Explanation - "Dolores was made with a poetic sensibility."

[Kalbear]

Just now, DMC said:

The first time Maeve meets Musashi-Dolores in episode 4 Maeve does not seem in a diplomatic mood.  Mushashi-Dolores tells Maeve she doesn't have it then and then what?  Maeve just believes her?  No, she'd want confirmation in some way, which would open up Dolores to vulnerabilities in some way no matter how you slice it.  Not to mention the possibility Maeve may relay that information to Serac.  It'd be entirely strategically stupid for Musashi-Dolores to trust Maeve then, too much of a risk you're giving Serac what he wants.  Which is pretty much exactly what Musashi-Dolores says in episode 4 to Maeve before he/she kills her.  I really don't think this is a "convenience" thing the way you're presenting it, it makes sense based on each character's motivations. 

Maeve wasn't in a diplomatic mood at the very end either, was she? Hell, she sets up Maeve to meet 'her' by the clues she left behind as well. All the dangers and risks you just named are there at the end, too. Maeve only goes into Dolores because Rebohoam isn't getting what she wants and she's getting impatient. She was going to go rip it out of Dolores' head. 

And again, she doesn't have to trust Maeve completely. She simply has to make sure that Maeve either sees that Dolores is telling the truth and joins her at that point, or she doesn't and Dolores can dispatch her as needed without any other risk. (that was ALSO a stupid thing - why on earth would Dolores hesitate to take Maeve with her?) Dolores at that point holds all the cards. She doesn't have to know that Bernard even exists (and I'm not sure that Musashi or any of the other Dolores clones did know he existed or why), she simply has to anticipate Maeve coming after her because of her daughter (which she does). 

Mostly, it doesn't make sense because we know it works and we know Dolores instigates it. Dolores choosing to see the beauty and trust Maeve but only doing it at the last possible second doesn't make a lot of sense. Either that's what she wants, and she should have gone with it earlier, or it's only at the last bit that she wants that. In either way, Dolores thinks it might work - so why not do it when she isn't completely desperate and is in more control of the situation? 

And on that note...so, let's see. Musashi had the key and had it sent to San Francisco to be delivered to Clifton-Dolores. Did Musashi know what it was? Why did he have it at all? And then it's sent to Bernard in San Francisco because...he couldn't have it to start with? He had to go make penance? I guess parts of this are simply to get the real Bernard on her side and do so while maintaining his free will, but boy is the path contrived.

 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Maeve wasn't in a diplomatic mood at the very end either, was she?

Entirely disagree there.  A lot of the episode was about Maeve changing her mind - both due to Dolores' appeals but mostly from her discovering more information about Serac/Rehoboam.

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

She simply has to make sure that Maeve either sees that Dolores is telling the truth and joins her at that point

I'm not sure how you do that without putting yourself in a vulnerable position to Maeve.  How exactly is Dolores supposed to instantaneously gain Maeve's trust?

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

she simply has to anticipate Maeve coming after her because of her daughter (which she does). 

Yes, but she also anticipates - correctly - that Maeve is going to try and kill her and may well reveal information to Serac in order to be with her daughter.

22 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Dolores choosing to see the beauty and trust Maeve but only doing it at the last possible second doesn't make a lot of sense.

It makes sense as a - as you said - hail mary or last resort.  But that doesn't mean you just give Maeve that information as long as she still may be aligned with Serac.  That wouldn't have made any sense.

25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

He had to go make penance? I guess parts of this are simply to get the real Bernard on her side and do so while maintaining his free will, but boy is the path contrived.

She sends Bernard to Arnold's wife to reconcile his cornerstone memory.  Maybe it's just me, but I think there's a thematic parallel between Bernard confronting that, not "letting go," and Dolores' meadow-conversation with Maeve.  She wanted them to get there the same way she was designed to reach self-awareness as we say in the first season (of which there were many callbacks this episode).  And she wanted to give them a choice that was legitimately their own.  Obviously it's quite contrived - and as I said very sloppy for a Nolan joint - but Dolores' ethos in manipulating Maeve, Bernard, and Caleb all logically align.

[Kalbear]

Also, one thing I fucking love? 

The money thing. The casual way in which Dolores just buys lives left and right with her Alexa consigliere hitman app. It's something that cyberpunk rarely tackles at that level - the actual buyer of these nefarious deeds - and it was brutal to just hear her purchase her way out of jams. More than anything, that specific superpower is really underrated and was well-woven into the fabric of the whole system. 

[karaddin]

I thought it all came together well, but I've been viewing Dolores as the hero with the goal pretty much this goal the whole season. The same thing about her purpose with Caleb, although I was wrong about how she got there.

I think the thing with Maeve is twofold, she needed a) to see Serac was Rehoboams puppet, and Rehoboam had no intention of honoring the agreement and b.) Dolores wasn't trying to burn everything down, and was not just willing to sacrifice herself but had actually done so. That appeal doesn't work until Dolores is in that position.

Bernard's and William's stories were both pretty much pure setup for the next season, they were largely pointless in this one but I expect to be central then. Halores looks to be the antagonist that Dolores was expected to be this season, which is the opposite of what I expected.

Agreed with Kal on loving the world building/aesthetic. This felt like a real extrapolation of our current world and technology. The use of the Rico app is a kinda chilling distillation of the power of money.

[Sharpes]

That was a pretty underwhelming ending for me. Who was helping Dolores with the proximity alerts and negotiating transactions with would-be assassins? What was the point of Caleb holding onto that usb? Why would you link up Dolores directly to Rehoboam in case she had a virus installed in her? Surely the great and almighty AI could account for that scenario. Honestly I thought Serac would be a lot smarter than this, given how careful he was with his virtual appearances.

What happened to the one-armed Dolores at the Solomon site, did she survive like Maeve did?

Does Incite only hire stormtroopers as part of its security?

Why did Dolores let William live for so long? She could have had him killed months ago, replaced him with a Delores-copy host and had full control of Delos and its facilities. There would have been no need for a Sizemore-Delores host. Then again we wouldn't have had that neat therapy session with young-adult-old(+James Delos) personalities.

So I guess Bernard did have something hidden inside him as I screenshotted earlier, just not Ford's consciousness. Dammit I wanted to see Anthony Hopkins again. If Bernard was so important to Dolores why allow him to go wandering around the world in which the key could have been damaged or lost to Serac? What if Bernard had got caught in a storm and lost at sea on his way back to the Park? He could have been shot by Park security.  Old William could have killed him. Ugh.

While I can understand Maeve had to cooperate with Serac without risking him destroying the Valley Beyond, I still don't know why Maeve is so concerned about her daughter. Their relationship is just a fabrication created by Sizemore, yeah? I might have to watch season 2 again but I thought the daughter didn't know Maeve anymore and was with a new host mother in the Valley Beyond?

[karaddin]

The USB was a red herring so Serac would think her plan had failed and let his guard down.

Caleb removed the pearl from the one armed Dolores, Serac's goon at the start sees the pool of blood from her head and the pearl missing and reports it.

The proximity alerts etc seem to be a virtual assistant that I assume all rich humans would have access to. Like a highly advanced Siri with no actual intelligence.

Incite Stormtroopers... All the people capable of killing a human are in the outlier program and the guards are just for show? That's the best I can do, this is a problem lol. No answers for the rest but it didn't bother me.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Sharpes said:

Why would you link up Dolores directly to Rehoboam in case she had a virus installed in her? Surely the great and almighty AI could account for that scenario. Honestly I thought Serac would be a lot smarter than this, given how careful he was with his virtual appearances.

Yeah, this is pretty stupid.  It's like Dr. Evil sending Austin and Elizabeth Hurley off to be eaten by mutated ill-tempered sea bass.  Almost as stupid as an EMP neutralizing both Dolores and Maeve, which if that's the case makes the entire second season completely nonsensical.  Another stupid thing is Maeve just overriding Serac's trump (no pun intended) card on her by, I guess, concentrating really hard.  Although I suppose that is the epitome of dues ex machina.

4 hours ago, Sharpes said:

Why did Dolores let William live for so long? She could have had him killed months ago, replaced him with a Delores-copy host and had full control of Delos and its facilities. There would have been no need for a Sizemore-Delores host. Then again we wouldn't have had that neat therapy session with young-adult-old(+James Delos) personalities.

So I guess Bernard did have something hidden inside him as I screenshotted earlier, just not Ford's consciousness. Dammit I wanted to see Anthony Hopkins again. If Bernard was so important to Dolores why allow him to go wandering around the world in which the key could have been damaged or lost to Serac? What if Bernard had got caught in a storm and lost at sea on his way back to the Park? He could have been shot by Park security.  Old William could have killed him. Ugh.

What if Peter Pettigrew got blackout drunk and couldn't tell Voldemort where the Potters were?  What if Stannis didn't act like a complete idiot after Arryn died?  Because they're stories.  Also, just on a logic level, if you're going to ensure information that you yourself can't know with another person, then you're always going to have to trust that other individual.  That's just how it works.

As for Dolores letting William live so long, she doesn't unnecessarily kill people, other than redshirts.  I think she wanted him to suffer in a cage like she did.  That's also why I think it's interesting that Serac is still, apparently, alive.  William isn't much of a threat, which is immediately made clear after the credits.

4 hours ago, Sharpes said:

I still don't know why Maeve is so concerned about her daughter.

Because her daughter is Maeve's cornerstone.  She's essentially said as much at least a dozen ways in just as many variations at this point.  I agree it's getting tiresome.

Everything else @karaddin dealt with a lot better than I could.