US Politics: Biden vs. Trump and Corona, Thunderdome Society at Its Very Best

[Zorral]

54 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

There really isn't a lot of value in your getting a say. 

Why is me getting a say without value?  You know, democracy and so on? 

O! Wait! I bet I know the answer -- my say is without value because it doesn't come with a few millions dollars donation.

AOC's doing another information event tonight on FB.  Where the eff are Biden's?  And if you tell me once more to listen to his podcast that he hasn't even bothered to reach to tell people he's got -- I'll throw up all over your device.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

How about the $600 a week unemployment added on to the fucking relief bill?

 

She was saying that to defend her own willingness to compromise on m4a.  

Was he not just making a lot of noise despite minimal opposition? 

Don't get me wrong, he has done a good job at moving liberal politics, but for the most part he's just shaking his fists at clouds. @A Horse Named Stranger was right in my mind to basically call him a Ron Paul of the left.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Why is me getting a say without value?  You know, democracy and so on? 

O! Wait! I bet I know the answer -- my say is without value because it doesn't come with a few millions dollars donation.

No, it's because it is irrelevant to the outcome. And I didn't say it was without value - just that it doesn't have much. 

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

AOC's doing another information event tonight on FB.  Where the eff are Biden's?  And if you tell me once more to listen to his podcast that he hasn't even bothered to reach to tell people he's got -- I'll throw up all over your device.

He had a town hall on Sunday. Three days before that 

Three days before that he had a commentary on the CARES act and oversight:

Four days before that he had a front lines conversation:

 

It's reasonable to say that he's not doing a lot of facebook events - but I think it's a problem with your information sources that you can't find this stuff. 

That said, it's also clear that this isn't getting enough reach, and that should be addressed.

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Was he not just making a lot of noise despite minimal opposition? 

Don't get me wrong, he has done a good job at moving liberal politics, but for the most part he's just shaking his fists at clouds. @A Horse Named Stranger was right in my mind to basically call him a Ron Paul of the left.

No.  

Eta: if there was minimal opposition, why don't we have a fucking rent freeze or suspension?  Why are most people waiting weeks to months to get any kind of relief?

Eta2: Sanders is also keeping his entire campaign staff's health insurance through November.  I know it's not much but I doubt any other candidates are doing that.  Probabaly more shaking fists at clouds 

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Don't get me wrong, he has done a good job at moving liberal politics, but for the most part he's just shaking his fists at clouds. @A Horse Named Stranger was right in my mind to basically call him a Ron Paul of the left.

I think ultimately that Sanders should be content that the party has shifted in his direction and call it a day.

[sologdin]

Sanders should be content that the party has shifted in his direction and call it a day.

fairly sure that is the public position that he is putting out there in withdrawing.  some NYT opinion pieces recently have said as much, and i think there's something in the most recent issue of dissent that makes this point.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

No.  

Eta: if there was minimal opposition, why don't we have a fucking rent freeze or suspension?  Why are most people waiting weeks to months to get any kind of relief?

Because both of these things are very difficult to do quickly, period? It's not like the US actually has a system to allocate massive amounts of money to every single person without even so much as checking people's addresses. 

And the rent freeze or suspension - that's even harder. If you want to freeze rent, you'll almost certainly have to freeze mortgages (as most landlords use the rent to pay those), and then you have to negotiate with possibly the largest financial system on the planet taking a hit on their most regular source of actual money on a monthly basis. 

And that's even assuming that it's remotely legal for the government to do anything like this. 

The good thing about democracy is that things tend to happen slowly and with deliberation. That also means that things aren't just magically waved away, especially at the federal level. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Because both of these things are very difficult to do quickly, period? It's not like the US actually has a system to allocate massive amounts of money to every single person without even so much as checking people's addresses. 

And the rent freeze or suspension - that's even harder. If you want to freeze rent, you'll almost certainly have to freeze mortgages (as most landlords use the rent to pay those), and then you have to negotiate with possibly the largest financial system on the planet taking a hit on their most regular source of actual money on a monthly basis. 

And that's even assuming that it's remotely legal for the government to do anything like this. 

The good thing about democracy is that things tend to happen slowly and with deliberation. That also means that things aren't just magically waved away, especially at the federal level. 

There are states that have suspended mortgage payments but not rent payments. 

I still think that $600 a week is more than shaking fists at clouds.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I think you are very wrong about that and not in the position that I am to know you are. Since sanders ran the first time a lot more white people (not just people I actually know but lots of clients as well and not just here but when I’ve traveled) have asked me about this issues than did before, and not just the left leaning ones. Most minority groups do not have the kind of visibility problem that native people have. A significant portion of the population sincerely think we are extinct. Most of the population don’t know a single native person (and I don’t mean white “I’m part native” people). To have anyone with any sort of platform at all talking about the fact we even exist is huge. Like it’s cool for you that you don’t have to imagine that the mere mention you exist and have issues is progress- but that’s cold hard facts for native people and if you ask around Little Earth you won’t find sentiments like yours about it.

I guess as a white guy who is 1/32th to 1/128th  Dakota, I've never known how to properly address this, but as a Jew, I've made peace with the likely fact that no one cares about us. And if that reality is true, they care even less about you and yours, Kay. Does minimal lip service really matter? 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

There are states that have suspended mortgage payments but not rent payments. 

I still think that $600 a week is more than shaking fists at clouds.  

Yep, some states have done one or the other or have asked for both. To my knowledge almost every state has had significant pushback, and there are no real relief items. I know that's the case here in WA. 

And the $600 was a great move! I don't know about the shaking fist at clouds thing - it was great. It was Sanders using the leverage he had at the time (which was quite a bit) and getting something really useful, though how it'll actually work out is still very confusing; the unemployment system appears to largely be melting down right now. It is especially helpful in places with shitty UI like Florida. 

[Pecan]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

And the rent freeze or suspension - that's even harder. If you want to freeze rent, you'll almost certainly have to freeze mortgages (as most landlords use the rent to pay those), and then you have to negotiate with possibly the largest financial system on the planet taking a hit on their lost regular source of actual money on a monthly basis. 

On the mortgages, the problem I think is that these are all ultimately financed by bonds, and so what you really need for this to be workable would be for all of these financial instruments to have the possibility of a payment freeze somehow built in. I don't know how you would do that but it would start with some sort of legislation that requires the issuers of mortgages to allow for the possibility of a temporary payment freeze upon declaration of a national emergency, or something like that. But imposing a mortgage holiday seems like it would be a problem for the industry to deal with and not cause the bond market to crash, or that part of the bond market where these securitized mortgages live anyway. 

[Fury Resurrected]

And on the shaking fists at clouds talk- you’re talking about a guy who got most of the party to support universal healthcare. He got independent contractors and that extra $600 on the CARES act (both measures that saved my ass personally as an independent contractor in an industry that was one of the first to be shut down and will be last to start back up and the assistant I employ). New progressive stars like Nina Turner and AOC and Ihan Omar credit him as part of their inspiration. It’s not glamorous to be a guy planting a tree whose shade you’ll never get to sit in, but his policies need someone to be that guy before anyone else will ever be able to do any of it. I remember when I was in high school people said shit like this about Ralph Nader regarding marijuana legalization. Despite all the flaws of that man and his own failures- without him saying it then, I don’t think we’d have the legalized states we have today. Not everything is instant gratification.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

No.  

Eta: if there was minimal opposition, why don't we have a fucking rent freeze or suspension?  Why are most people waiting weeks to months to get any kind of relief?

Eta2: Sanders is also keeping his entire campaign staff's health insurance through November.  I know it's not much but I doubt any other candidates are doing that.  Probabaly more shaking fists at clouds 

Doesn't this show you why he's failed? He supported an easy position to back. And just a couple people really fought him on it.

Regarding ETA1, Regarding rent freezes, I support them, knowing full well it hurts me. Most people can't make that call though. I wonder what will happen to my father's homes.  

Regarding ETA2, I've never worked for a loser, but any good boss covers you past the end of their campaign. It's in part what makes the Bloomberg fallout so funny. 


 

[Kalbear]

Yeah, I don't get a lot of that at all either. Sanders is clearly one of the most important policy makers in generations. He has defined the conversation about what the policy for the US should be for a while now, and chances are good it'll be defined in his terms for another 5 years at least. Probably the next big seismic change will be climate policy. 

That said, a lot of what Sanders has done is entirely Quixotic and is going to fail. His talk of revolution, of sweeping across the US with youth and vigor and progressive ideals - that hasn't panned out at all. His taking on the establishment and tearing it all down hasn't either; the establishment adapted (as it should) and threw him largely aside. But the actual goals, the being relevant as a policy leader and someone who can get things done? Sanders has gotten and used more power in the last 5 years than virtually any other non-POTUS save perhaps McCain's thumbs down in 2017. 

[Fury Resurrected]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I guess as a white guy who is 1/32th to 1/128th  Dakota, I've never known how to properly address this, but as a Jew, I've made peace with the likely fact that no one cares about us. And if that reality is true, they care even less about you and yours, Kay. Does minimal lip service really matter? 

1/32-1/128th is a level where you don’t address it. I think if you are not personally connected to native culture and issues, have faced none of the discrimination and hardships of native people, the fact that someone generations back you never met might have experienced those things doesn’t matter. My dad is Danish American. He’s never been to Denmark, he doesn’t know anything about Denmark. He’s white American.

When I say I’m native, I mean I had to spend two years trying to get my (Still living today) grandmother a government id because nobody knew where her birth certificate might be because she was kidnapped by the government and raised in a boarding school where she was beaten and starved until she forgot her own language and was never saw her parents again. It *bothers* me when white people who saw on 23andme or something they’re .9% native tell me “oh yeah, I’m part native, too”. Like oh, then you must also understand what it’s like to deal with your sweet nokoomis being terrified of nuns or being racially slurred in northern Minnesota or getting stranded in a blizzard at standing rock and watching your friends get beaten by cops while engaging in practice of their native religion in protest? 
 

THAT is why even mentioning and showing actual natives is important, because most white Americans think that we are “part native” white people living normal lives like they have and experiencing no unique discrimination.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

There are states that have suspended mortgage payments but not rent payments. 

I still think that $600 a week is more than shaking fists at clouds.  

And for those of us that had to work in infected areas for basically that? 

The military pays for serving in active combat zones. We've been calling this a war, after all. Pay us as such. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

And on the shaking fists at clouds talk- you’re talking about a guy who got most of the party to support universal healthcare. He got independent contractors and that extra $600 on the CARES act (both measures that saved my ass personally as an independent contractor in an industry that was one of the first to be shut down and will be last to start back up and the assistant I employ). New progressive stars like Nina Turner and AOC and Ihan Omar credit him as part of their inspiration. It’s not glamorous to be a guy planting a tree whose shade you’ll never get to sit in, but his policies need someone to be that guy before anyone else will ever be able to do any of it. I remember when I was in high school people said shit like this about Ralph Nader regarding marijuana legalization. Despite all the flaws of that man and his own failures- without him saying it then, I don’t think we’d have the legalized states we have today. Not everything is instant gratification.

Hasn't that always been my point? That he won the long game? But he's been a real jackass about the short-term. He is both visionary and undercutting at the same time.

This was always my complaint about Bernie. His self-indulgence sold him short.
 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And for those of us that had to work in infected areas for basically that? 

The military pays for serving in active combat zones. We've been calling this a war, after all. Pay us as such. 

 Not sure what your point is, but I agree healthcare workers should be getting hazard pay.  Sanders didn't fight hard enough for you?  Ok, but you're pissed at the guy who has been calling for building a better funded more inclusive healthcare system?  

When Joe Biden, Pete Buttigieg, or Kamala Harris, or Elizabeth Warren, or Mike fucking Bloomberg fight for that for you, great.  Healthcare workers should be paid more than they are, and the fact that nurses are being asked to treat patients without PPE is criminal.

It's not a war though, and framing it as such makes it sound like you're making some kind of noble martyr instead of the truth, which is that politically protected corporations are sacrificing you and other healthcare workers because it's more profitable. 

But to your point, which I was addressing, if Sanders is just full of hot air then every other MOC is even worse.  Sanders has been fundraising for pandemic relief more than campaigning recently and unlike Biden, wasn't encouraging Wisconsiners (ites?) To go out and vote.

 

[DMC]

38 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think ultimately that Sanders should be content that the party has shifted in his direction and call it a day.

Well, the voters made that choice for him.  But yes, I think he'll go down historically somewhat akin to William Jennings Bryan or Adlai Stevenson II.  An important leader of a movement within a wing of the Democratic party that significantly changed things.  Someone mentioned Nader.  Sanders' contribution to leftist causes is far greater than Nader's.  In fact based on his career trajectory there's a strong argument that Sanders veered course after observing Nader's experience.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

1/32-1/128th is a level where you don’t address it. I think if you are not personally connected to native culture and issues, have faced none of the discrimination and hardships of native people, the fact that someone generations back you never met might have experienced those things doesn’t matter. My dad is Danish American. He’s never been to Denmark, he doesn’t know anything about Denmark. He’s white American.

When I say I’m native, I mean I had to spend two years trying to get my (Still living today) grandmother a government id because nobody knew where her birth certificate might be because she was kidnapped by the government and raised in a boarding school where she was beaten and starved until she forgot her own language and was never saw her parents again. It *bothers* me when white people who saw on 23andme or something they’re .9% native tell me “oh yeah, I’m part native, too”. Like oh, then you must also understand what it’s like to deal with your sweet nokoomis being terrified of nuns or being racially slurred in northern Minnesota or getting stranded in a blizzard at standing rock and watching your friends get beaten by cops while engaging in practice of their native religion in protest? 
 

THAT is why even mentioning and showing actual natives is important, because most white Americans think that we are “part native” white people living normal lives like they have and experiencing no unique discrimination.

1, I can't pretend that I have, but this is why I tried to parallel the Jewish experience. Things are more complicated than that. 

2. It is important, but I am not a fan of empty messaging with props. 
 

5 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

 Not sure what your point is, but I agree healthcare workers should be getting hazard pay.  Sanders didn't fight hard enough for you?  Ok, but you're pissed at the guy who has been calling for building a better funded more inclusive healthcare system?  

When Joe Biden, Pete Buttigieg, or Kamala Harris, or Elizabeth Warren, or Mike fucking Bloomberg fight for that for you, great.  Healthcare workers should be paid more than they are, and the fact that nurses are being asked to treat patients without PPE is criminal.

It's not a war though, and framing it as such makes it sound like you're making some kind of noble martyr instead of the truth, which is that politically protected corporations are sacrificing you and other healthcare workers because it's more profitable. 

But to your point, which I was addressing, if Sanders is just full of hot air then every other MOC is even worse.  Sanders has been fundraising for pandemic relief more than campaigning recently and unlike Biden, wasn't encouraging Wisconsiners (ites?) To go out and vote.

 

The point is he did a lot of empty credit claiming. I've got no time for that.