US Politics: The Killing Hoax

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Holy spaghetti monster this fridgergate is making my head hurt.

Correct me if I am wrong. I am not American, but even I know that the San Francisco area is not particularly poor. So Pelosi is the representative of a rather affluent district. And surprise, she is part of the wealthy liberal, coastal elites that voted her in.

Now people are going mad over her being wealthy?

[Darth Richard II]

2 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Holy spaghetti monster this fridgergate is making my head hurt.

Correct me if I am wrong. I am not American, but even I know that the San Francisco area is not particularly poor. So Pelosi is the representative of a rather affluent district. And surprise, she is part of the wealthy liberal, coastal elites that voted her in.

Now people are going mad over her being wealthy?

Nah, outside of one segment on The View the only place I see this actually being discussed is, well...here.

[Rippounet]

Well a few people are making a rather simple point that ostensible displays of wealth can alienate working-class voters and is a bad idea in a time of crisis and economic unknown.

Others spend a lot of effort ridiculing them. I guess it's... fun?

[Ser Reptitious]

10 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Well a few people are making a rather simple point that ostensible displays of wealth can alienate working-class voters and is a bad idea in a time of crisis and economic unknown.

Others spend a lot of effort ridiculing them. I guess it's... fun?

Someone ought to notify Trump of this! 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Well a few people are making a rather simple point that ostensible displays of wealth can alienate working-class voters and is a bad idea in a time of crisis and economic unknown.

Others spend a lot of effort ridiculing them. I guess it's... fun?

Again, Trump lives in a sold gold penthouse. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I don't think that argument makes much sense.

AFAIK Pelosi never claimed to be a blue collar Democrat. She is from the freaking Bay area, not from Michigan. You can argue, that a display of wealth isn't particularly smart. Fine. But then again, she is not gonna be Biden's running mate. She is representing her district.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Sounds like Rand Paul is melting like he's the wicked witch.

[Week]

The incredulous response to ice cremghazi feels quite gendered in its vehemence. But her ice cream, indeed.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Week said:

The incredulous response to ice cremghazi feels quite gendered in its vehemence. But her ice cream, indeed.

Awesome. So not only are we stupid, but sexist to boot.

[DMC]

33 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'd go one step further. The heart of the matter is that right-wing parties understand class politics better. Not on substance of course, but on image and messaging.

While @Fez kinda ninja'd me here while I was trying to finish grading papers, I can't help but respond in detail.  This is representative of a widespread misunderstanding of American politics on behalf of European scholars (and to be clear, I don't necessarily mean Europeans, but those that specialize in researching European politics).  Lipset & Rokkan's (1967) seminal work may have provided an outstanding explanatory framework for how class cleavages structured party systems across Europe throughout the 20th century, but class politics could not and still cannot be applied in an analogous fashion when it comes to the US' two party system.

The gradual shift of the white working class towards the GOP since the advent of "Reagan Democrats" forty years ago has little to do with class conflict.  It is rooted in a type of populism that not only scapegoats minorities, but also framing in/out group dynamics against the "elites" with expertise to foster anti-intellectualism.  The white working class voters that have migrated to the GOP are not upset about the wealth of Democrats, they are upset because the GOP has skillfully galvanized the belief among such constituents that Dem elites think they're better than them.

This tack led to a realignment based on education - at least among the white population.  The tradeoff is the white working class gravitates to the right while professional class whites gravitate towards the left.  Considering this tradeoff is also conditioned on the GOP relying on activating white racial resentment that alienates minorities, I will gladly take that tradeoff in the long run.  Moreover, as Obama 2008 (and to a lesser extent 2012) demonstrated, the white working class can still be somewhat poachable for the Dems when sociotropic economic voting favors their side.  

Finally, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you, the rise of far-right elements over the past quarter century both across Europe and the US is not based on class conflict.  While to my knowledge most western European states have not been subject to the corresponding devastation of unionization in the US, the emergent strain of right populism is not rooted in class conflict but rather animus toward globalization and subsequent momentous shifts in demographics.

[Week]

2 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Awesome. So not only are we stupid, but sexist to boot.

Well, the argument breathlessly being made against Pelosi (by the left - thanks friends) is not relevant to anything that matters at all. It's not moving GE votes, irrelevant to Pelosi's reelection, so it's like ... what are we doing here folks? Chasing our tail while the country burns.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Jesus Christ, so many pages of debate over a stupid, but small mistake. 

 

[Rippounet]

3 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

This is where I have the mental disconnect with this whole ice cream gate or whatever you want to call it. Everyone knows that Trump is just as wealthy as Pelosi (supposedly). So why the fuck would anyone be offended by her ice cream fridge but not by his golden toilet? Am I missing something?

It's a bit hard to explain, as @The Great Unwashed says it's not rational.
But I think class contempt is perceived most strongly when you have a mix of ostensible wealth and sanctimoniousness.
And I'd say that's why Trump was described as "honest"... He was pretty much never sanctimonious.
He's probably incapable of it too, since he's almost never actually honest.

Look, like others I didn't want to dwell on this, like, at all. But when people started being dismissive, mocking, or even borderline insulting, it just made me dig my heels in.

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

While @Fez kinda ninja'd me here while I was trying to finish grading papers, I can't help but respond in detail.  This is representative of a widespread misunderstanding of American politics on behalf of European scholars (and to be clear, I don't necessarily mean Europeans, but those that specialize in researching European politics).

[...]

Finally, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you, the rise of far-right elements over the past quarter century both across Europe and the US is not based on class conflict.  While to my knowledge most western European states have not been subject to the corresponding devastation of unionization in the US, the emergent strain of right populism is not rooted in class conflict but rather animus toward globalization and subsequent momentous shifts in demographics.

Fuck dude, I'd almost need to write a goddamn paper to answer you properly.

Your point is well taken, but it leaves a lot of room at the margins. Funnily enough, I typed what's above before reading your message, so I think it's easy to build on that and say that the absence of "orthodox" class conflict does not mean a total absence of class politics. You could sidestep and talk about anti-intellectualism or geography or tribalism (I've seen various formulations), but to my eyes it's just the US version of class politics, which is very different from the "European" (or West European, or French) version and yet can have some commonalities at the margins.
I could go on and point out that the paradigm you describe is the fashionable one anyway these days, and I'm certainly not going to argue.

And since the conversation is more civil now, thanks @Zorral for the reference, I'm always interested in new books to read. I finally got round to reading Invisible Hands btw, great stuff.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I think it's easy to build on that and say that the absence of "orthodox" class conflict does not mean a total absence of class politics. You could sidestep and talk about anti-intellectualism or geography or tribalism (I've seen various formulations), but to my eyes it's just the US version of class politics, which is very different from the "European" (or West European, or French) version and yet can have some commonalities at the margins.

I mean, obviously SES is going to have an impact on voting tendencies in any electorate.  Especially when you confine that to a subset of "white + SES."  But Sanders' receding electoral performance this cycle demonstrates that even as the emergent left pushes some aspects/rhetoric of classic working-class parties more than's been seen in this country on the national stage since the Great Depression, it still has limited appeal on the left.  And the "Tea Party" and "Freedom Caucus" and "Alt-Right" and whatever the fuck they rebrand themselves tomorrow on the right aren't based on class divisions - plenty of these old white dudes are quite well-off.  I think it's plainly much more of an ethnic and education cleavage than a class cleavage.

[Zorral]

57 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Trump lives in a sold gold penthouse. 

He loves gold!  Only gold! His heart is cold! his kiss is the kiss of death! Goldfinger!

Again, this isn't foolish failure or a bug.  This is utterly intentional. Any general expects the troops to die in large numbers.  In every war more troops die of disease than battle.  And it's been over 40 years in the making.   We are locked down and his troops are out there rampaging in the streets.

But everybody on the so-called Dem side is utterly terrified to look these facts in the face and admit them.  So the richer ones hunker down in their nice roomy homes with freezers filled with roasts and steaks, and the utterly necessary die. But it doesn't matter because there are always more of them, because there won't be any birth control either.  Sexist, racist, all win win win all the time.

[Rippounet]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

I think it's plainly much more of an ethnic and education cleavage than a class cleavage.

Of course. But as I said, this leaves room at the margins. And the thing about US politics is that it's fucking difficult to assess just how big some of those margins are.

As I said 5 pages ago, I stumbled upon the expression "working-class Americans" in a right-wing media outlet in a piece attacking the Dems yesterday. Obviously it doesn't mean you have class conflict in the US, but that some elements of it are being used in specific circumstances. And... Fuck dude, it would take me a paper to develop this, nobody cares, and we both have papers to grade. I've had my fill of internet debates for one day, let's come back to this in a couple of days if we're still interested.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Of course. But as I said, this leaves room at the margins. And the thing about US politics is that it's fucking difficult to assess just how big some of those margins are.

Well, sure, basically anything can be argued at the margins (thank you marginal effects for making my otherwise null results appear meaningful in a number of papers!).  What I was mainly responding to is you asserting the GOP was better at "class politics" than the left.  That's not really the case.  Their capture of the white working class voters over the past 40 years doesn't have to do with exploiting the "out of touch wealth" of Dem elites - which is at the heart of this inane Pelosi discussion - but rather in exploiting educational and ethnic resentment.  That's all - no need to disrupt your grading.  I'm dreading the next week or so myself...and then I'm unemployed.  So, ask me in two weeks and maybe I'll be more receptive to class-based appeals.

[ThinkerX]

meanwhile, in actual news, a republican led senate investigation concluded that there was Russian interference in the 2016 election.  (some of the commentator's on that article can't quite grasp that).

 

 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/republican-led-review-backs-intelligence-findings-on-russian-interference/ar-BB12ZvC2?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580&fbclid=IwAR3GJn6CUWT2MyGz5MEufaUC8THVP040d1v6ebSTXaQC08fQZ8YoFoiTZTw

WASHINGTON — American intelligence officials’ determination that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election to assist Donald J. Trump’s candidacy was fundamentally sound and untainted by politics, according to a key Republican-led Senate review released on Tuesday. The findings undercut longstanding allegations by Mr. Trump and his allies that the officials were biased against him.

“The I.C.A. reflects strong tradecraft, sound analytical reasoning and proper justification of disagreement in the one analytical line where it occurred,” said Senator Richard M. Burr, Republican of North Carolina and the panel’s chairman. “The committee found no reason to dispute the intelligence community’s conclusions.”

[ThinkerX]

In more actual news, it looks like Barr is trying to lay the legal groundwork for something catastrophic:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/barr-some-governors-actions-infringe-on-a-fundamental-right-during-coronavirus/ar-BB12YBwa?ocid=ob-fb-enus-580&fbclid=IwAR3Ohh7w6sNQ8RCPsPHrF4gwqHIe8SbLqNrami5pZ34APw0_ja_6OR4NErQ

Barr said in an interview on "The Hugh Hewitt Show" that governments in the U.S. need to "do a better job" of ensuring coronavirus restrictions are "properly targeted" and do not unnecessarily infringe on constitutional rights. He added that currently, the country is facing "unprecedented burdens on civil liberties."

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, Zorral said:

He loves gold!  Only gold! His heart is cold! his kiss is the kiss of death! Goldfinger!

Again, this isn't foolish failure or a bug.  This is utterly intentional. Any general expects the troops to die in large numbers.  In every war more troops die of disease than battle.  And it's been over 40 years in the making.   We are locked down and his troops are out there rampaging in the streets.

But everybody on the so-called Dem side is utterly terrified to look these facts in the face and admit them.  So the richer ones hunker down in their nice roomy homes with freezers filled with roasts and steaks, and the utterly necessary die. But it doesn't matter because there are always more of them, because there won't be any birth control either.  Sexist, racist, all win win win all the time.

Damn, why do you have to insult Goldfinger like that. He was brilliant.

Trump is more Goldmember.