Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Ned and Robert had a reconciliation over their shared grief. The text doesn't describe when this occurred, so as far as I'm concerned it could have happened anywhere from a few months after the Rebellion or even years later. The text does not tell us the circumstances of their next face to face. It's entirely possible that they may not have seen each other again until the Greyjoy Rebellion of 289 - six years after Robert's Rebellion.

I’ve considered this, and maybe you can parse the quote into meaning this.  I’d more readily agree to that interpretation if the quote just said that they reconciled in their shared grief over Lyanna.  But it also says that it took her death (in addition to their shared grief) to reconcile.  So that’s why I lean towards Lyanna dying after the Sack.

My assumption is that Lyanna died at Starfall which is the real reason that Eddard travelled to Starfall after the tower of joy.  It wasn’t a mission to bring Dawn to Ashara, it was really a mission to bring Jon back to Lyanna.

[Frey family reunion]

21 hours ago, corbon said:

Why not? She was 'abducted' over a year ago and there has been no sign of her since. Her 'abductor' has reappeared and still no sign of her. What else would she be but dead?

I think the quote I gave a few posts above shows that Robert hadn't just given up Lyanna for dead.  He was still fighting to get her back up to the Trident.  Something happened right before the Trident to make Robert believe he was never going to get Lyanna back at least not as she was before the abduction.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve considered this, and maybe you can parse the quote into meaning this.  I’d more readily agree to that interpretation if the quote just said that they reconciled in their shared grief over Lyanna.  But it also says that it took her death (in addition to their shared grief) to reconcile.  So that’s why I lean towards Lyanna dying after the Sack.

My assumption is that Lyanna died at Starfall which is the real reason that Eddard travelled to Starfall after the tower of joy.  It wasn’t a mission to bring Dawn to Ashara, it was really a mission to bring Jon back to Lyanna.

You are assuming the author intended the word "another" to mean "subsequent" or "one more" or "additional", but it can also mean "some other" or "distinctly different from the other".

[corbon]

On 6/20/2020 at 7:13 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I think the quote I gave a few posts above shows that Robert hadn't just given up Lyanna for dead.  He was still fighting to get her back up to the Trident.  Something happened right before the Trident to make Robert believe he was never going to get Lyanna back at least not as she was before the abduction.

He didn't start the war at the Trident.

 

Frankly, its a lie he even started the war to get her back.
The war literally started so he (and Ned) could keep his head on his shoulders. 

[alienarea]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

He didn't start the war at the Trident.

 

Frankly, its a lie he even started the war to get her back.
The war literally started so he (and Ned) could keep his head on his shoulders. 

Did we ever look into a scenario that has Littlefinger being behind Lyanna's abduction so he can get Catelyn?

[QhorinQuarterhand]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Did we ever look into a scenario that has Littlefinger being behind Lyanna's abduction so he can get Catelyn?

It does seem like a very Littlefinger thing to do. Plus Brandon hears of the "abduction" as he is on his way to marry Catelyn. Mayhaps Lyanna was abducted. But it was a pissed off Oberyn that did it? 

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, alienarea said:

Did we ever look into a scenario that has Littlefinger being behind Lyanna's abduction so he can get Catelyn?

Brandon had to hear the news from someone, but Littlefinger was just a boy at that time. He may not have had many connections just yet, although I do suspect he travelled widely with Hoster Tully, who according to Catelyn’s memories was away from home frequently.

[alienarea]

18 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Brandon had to hear the news from someone, but Littlefinger was just a boy at that time. He may not have had many connections just yet, although I do suspect he travelled widely with Hoster Tully, who according to Catelyn’s memories was away from home frequently.

Littlefinger must have been old enough to duel with Brandon, though.

He surely had the brains to predict Brandons reaction to Lyanna's abduction, and as the country wasn't in war, it would not have been difficult to abduct Lyanna. He could have sweet-talked her away himself, probably.

[corbon]

On 6/21/2020 at 10:38 PM, alienarea said:

Did we ever look into a scenario that has Littlefinger being behind Lyanna's abduction so he can get Catelyn?

I was a fan of the idea - not as a theory due to lack of evidence, but as a possible idea due to cuteness - it would satisfy a number of things and also establish young Littlefinger's ideas about beneficial chaos etc.
But I recall someone asked GRRM about Littlefinger being involved and he appeared genuinely puzzled and said something like Littlefinger being only a boy and badly wounded at the time and having nothing to do with it.

 

Frankly I trusted the 'puzzled about it' part more than any vague/inexplicit dismissals. 

[LynnS]

17 hours ago, corbon said:

But I recall someone asked GRRM about Littlefinger being involved and he appeared genuinely puzzled and said something like Littlefinger being only a boy and badly wounded at the time and having nothing to do with it.

Whenever the issue of Littlefingers grievous injury comes up;  I think of Tyrion hearing about a dwarf maester once serving at the Fingers.  I always wonder if this was Marwyn due to the nature of the injury and his proficiency with opening corpses to study the internal organs.  I've mention before that Samwell's description of Marwyn has many characteristics of dwarfism.  I wonder what Tyrion will think should they cross paths.

Here is Sam's description:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Sam," said Alleras, "this is Archmaester Marwyn."

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

squat adj.: short and thickset; disproportionately broad or wide.  This describes achondroplasiaa form of dwarfism.  I wonder why Martin has chosen not to mention it. 

[Melifeather]

Speaking of Hoster Tully...Catelyn associates her father as a frequent patron of the inn at the crossroads, which is not all that far from Riverrun...

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn V

"I am soaked through," Ser Rodrik complained. "Even my bones are wet." The woods pressed close around them, and the steady pattering of rain on leaves was accompanied by the small sucking sounds their horses made as their hooves pulled free of the mud. "We will want a fire tonight, my lady, and a hot meal would serve us both."

"There is an inn at the crossroads up ahead," Catelyn told him. She had slept many a night there in her youth, traveling with her father. Lord Hoster Tully had been a restless man in his prime, always riding somewhere. She still remembered the innkeep, a fat woman named Masha Heddle who chewed sourleaf night and day and seemed to have an endless supply of smiles and sweet cakes for the children. The sweet cakes had been soaked with honey, rich and heavy on the tongue, but how Catelyn had dreaded those smiles. The sourleaf had stained Masha's teeth a dark red, and made her smile a bloody horror.

 

Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he "heard about Lyanna"....

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"If you say so. You and he were to wed."

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

Brandon promised Catelyn that they would wed upon his return. I had thought previously that he said these words after hearing about Lyanna, but that assumption is incorrect. He had to have said these words during an earlier visit - probably after his duel with Petyr.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

She was no stranger to waiting, after all. Her men had always made her wait. "Watch for me, little cat," her father would always tell her, when he rode off to court or fair or battle. And she would, standing patiently on the battlements of Riverrun as the waters of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone flowed by. He did not always come when he said he would, and days would ofttimes pass as Catelyn stood her vigil, peering out between crenels and through arrow loops until she caught a glimpse of Lord Hoster on his old brown gelding, trotting along the river-shore toward the landing. "Did you watch for me?" he'd ask when he bent to hug her. "Did you, little cat?"

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

 

The False Spring and the Tourney at Harrenhal were at the end of 281, while Lyanna was taken in January of 282, which means that Brandon told Catelyn that they would "wed on my return" prior to the tourney. This supports my argument that Brandon stopped at Riverrun on his way to compete in the tourney. While at Riverrun, the wedding date is announced, the duel with Petyr occurred, and then Brandon left for the tourney, which would explain why he also said, "I shall not be long, my lady."  Now, depending upon the route Brandon took - he could have ridden horse in a direct "as the crow flies" manner straight to Riverrun, or he could have ridden north towards the inn at the crossroads and then followed the Trident west to Riverrun - in either case, the news about Lyanna may have come from that inn. The close proximity to Harrenhal combined with the numbers of people going home from the tourney would make it easier for news to travel fast.

 

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

while Lyanna was taken in January of 282,

We really don't know when Lyanna was taken do we?  Other than it was in 282.  Rhaegar left King's landing in January of 282, but we don't know how long it took him to ultimately end up in the Riverlands.  The key word being ultimately.  It implies he traveled to other locations first.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We really don't know when Lyanna was taken do we?  Other than it was in 282.  Rhaegar left King's landing in January of 282, but we don't know how long it took him to ultimately end up in the Riverlands.  The key word being ultimately.  It implies he traveled to other locations first.

Indeed.

We also don't know the Tourney was near the end of 281. That timing is based on one possibility of parsing a sentence, but it is not the only reasonable way to read it.

 

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, corbon said:

Indeed.

We also don't know the Tourney was near the end of 281. That timing is based on one possibility of parsing a sentence, but it is not the only reasonable way to read it.

 

I read your argument and I see where you're coming from.  My takeaway though is that the phrase "winter returned with a vengeance" implies that that the return to winter wasn't gradual but came on suddenly.  Which makes me inclined to believe that the false spring ended as the year closed.  But I agree there is some ambiguity there.

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I read your argument and I see where you're coming from.  My takeaway though is that the phrase "winter returned with a vengeance" implies that that the return to winter wasn't gradual but came on suddenly.  Which makes me inclined to believe that the false spring ended as the year closed.  But I agree there is some ambiguity there.

Sure, thats included, and is perhaps the simplest way to read that phrase alone. So if that was the only factor, thats where my money would be too. But there are other factors, of varying degrees of relevance. Reading it only that way ends up conflicting with some other factors, so shouldn't be done dogmatically. I expect we will learn more in the books to come.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We really don't know when Lyanna was taken do we?  Other than it was in 282.  Rhaegar left King's landing in January of 282, but we don't know how long it took him to ultimately end up in the Riverlands.  The key word being ultimately.  It implies he traveled to other locations first.

I don't believe Rhaegar rode into the Riverlands. I think he was on Dragonstone attending Aegon's birth in Jan 282. But, I should have inserted that it is my opinion that the tourney was either Nov or Dec of 281 and that Lyanna was abducted in Jan 282, because I understand that there may be others that don't believe the information that can be gleaned from the hidden story in the titled chapters. But I can explain how I come up with Jan 282.

Nailing down the timing does require turning to the World of Ice and Fire:

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

 

Returning to what I referred to with regards to the titled chapters...Arya served (penance) in the House of Black and White three nights out of every thirty when the moon was new - three moonless nights each month. It's my opinion that the three nights are symbolic of the three squires Lyanna stood up to, and the three knights defeated by the knight of the laughing tree. Two sets of three indicate two months. My conclusion is that after the tourney ended, Lyanna hid in the Riverlands for two months, running from men searching for the knight of the laughing tree before she's finally captured. A route that Arya retraced when she escaped Harrenhal herself.

 

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

My conclusion is that after the tourney ended, Lyanna hid in the Riverlands for two months, running from men searching for the knight of the laughing tree before she's finally captured. A route that Arya retraced when she escaped Harrenhal herself.

 

Nah, I can't get behind this at all. There's a fair theory that the Knight of the Laughing Tree were one and the same, but its only a theory. There's nothing in the text to suggest that anyone outside the forums followed that theory or to even remotely suggest that she was a fugitive for that or any other reason.

You catch/apprehend/arrest a fugitive. Abduction of someone going about their lawful occasions is a different matter entirely.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, I can't get behind this at all. There's a fair theory that the Knight of the Laughing Tree were one and the same, but its only a theory. There's nothing in the text to suggest that anyone outside the forums followed that theory or to even remotely suggest that she was a fugitive for that or any other reason.

You catch/apprehend/arrest a fugitive. Abduction of someone going about their lawful occasions is a different matter entirely.

Rhaegar wasn't the only one sent to search for the knight of the laughing tree. The text also mentions Gregor Clegane and his men searching, and while they were searching they stopped at an inn and raped the innkeeper's daughter. I'm not proposing that Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree even though I suspect she had a share in it, but what I am saying is that there were people continuing to search long after the tourney. The men that abducted Lyanna didn't take her because of the knight of the laughing tree. They took her upon Tywin Lannister's orders and made it appear that it was Rhaegar and his men. It was a deliberate plan to spark the rebellion.

[Black Crow]

Oh lots of people  were looking for the Knight, but there's not the slightest suggestion that Lyanna was on the run before she was lifted.

Where I will agree with you is that it was all about politics at Harrenhal and afterwards, The Blessed St.Jon of Arryn was trying to knit a northern alliance together. Rhaegar had his own scheme and the crown of roses was a shot across the northerners'  bows, not a declaration of undying love for a young girl he's never met. The Starks, the Tullys and the Blessed St.Jon pressed on, so pulling Lyanna out of the equation in the hope of frustrating and even bringing down Arryn's edifice made a lot of sense. Tywin Lannister may well have been involved in ways we don't properly know and its hard to see Varys/Rugen not being a player, but its all politics.

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Oh lots of people  were looking for the Knight, but there's not the slightest suggestion that Lyanna was on the run before she was lifted.

Where I will agree with you is that it was all about politics at Harrenhal and afterwards, The Blessed St.Jon of Arryn was trying to knit a northern alliance together. Rhaegar had his own scheme and the crown of roses was a shot across the northerners'  bows, not a declaration of undying love for a young girl he's never met. The Starks, the Tullys and the Blessed St.Jon pressed on, so pulling Lyanna out of the equation in the hope of frustrating and even bringing down Arryn's edifice made a lot of sense. Tywin Lannister may well have been involved in ways we don't properly know and its hard to see Varys/Rugen not being a player, but its all politics.

Meera's telling of the knight of the laughing tree says the prince never found the knight, just the shield hanging in a tree:

Quote

"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

It's the timing of the False Spring and when the tourney was held added to when Lyanna was said to have been abducted that supports the case that she was hiding after the tourney, because the alternative doesn't make sense. If she wasn't hiding then two months should have been sufficient time to make it to either Riverrun for Brandon's wedding or get home before winter arrived at the end of the year.

I disagree with you that the Targaryens had anything to gain by abducting Lyanna, unless your position is that they were holding her hostage in order to prevent an uprising? Because if that is what you're saying, the plan was foolish and completely failed. If anything, it antagonized the Starks and sparked the rebellion. And I might point out that Hoster Tully didn't join the Rebellion until after Ned and Jon Arryn negotiated marriage alliances for Tully men to help save Robert in Stoney Sept.