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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

As for R+L staying there the whole time... man, I don't know.

 I agree there are several ways to deal with a body or prepare it for transportation.  I think it's highly probable that Lyanna's body was turned over to the Silent Sisters and that she didn't die at the ToJ.  That explains to me who 'they' might be.  Frankly,  I don't even know why the ToJ narrative is necessary to the overall premise.  Removing it doesn't change anything except that she dies somewhere else.  I don't see why that can't be Starfall or that this would contradict Rhaegar's intentions at all.  It make more sense to me that he would keep her in a safe place with attendants at Starfall.  Especially since Arthur Dayne is his close confident and friend.  Otherwise, I have to think of him as a cruel and callous character.  And I don't think he was that at all.

Edit:  Here's what Lady Dustin says:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

"Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs."

 

 

Edited by LynnS
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Let's also remember that Rhaegar had a number of likely noble companions with him when he set out. Not only the younger brother [and perhaps sister?] of the Lord of Starfall, but very likely the Lord of Griffin's Roost as well until some time before the Battle of the Bells, which is also relatively close to Rhaegar's favorite place Summerhall. We also don't know where Lonmouth was located, or whether he was among Rhaegar's companions during the abduction. It's not as though all of this is happening in some part of Westeros that Rhaegar and his companions are completely oblivious to.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 I agree there are several ways to deal with a body or prepare it for transportation.  I think it's highly probable that Lyanna's body was turned over to the Silent Sisters and that she didn't die at the ToJ.  That explains to me who 'they' might be.  Frankly,  I don't even know why the ToJ narrative is necessary to the overall premise.  Removing it doesn't change anything except that she dies somewhere else.  I don't see why that can't be Starfall or that this would contradict Rhaegar's intentions at all.  It make more sense to me that he would keep her in a safe place with attendants at Starfall.  Especially since Arthur Dayne is his close confident and friend.  Otherwise, I have to think of him as a cruel and callous character.  And I don't think he was that at all.

Edit:  Here's what Lady Dustin says:

While I am completely open to the possibility that Starfall had major involvement, I don't think we can just extrapolate that from Rhaegar and Arthur being close friends, and Arthur's brother being Lord of Starfall.

We know the connections between families don't just magically sever when someone joins the KG, or NW, or whatever. Hence the rumors about Whent and his Lord brother re: the Harrenhal tourney, and Rhaegar's alleged informal great council.

But during a literal rebellion where the king and prince have at best an on and off strained relationship, but possibly a much more strained relationship especially once Rhaegar goes missing with Lyanna, helping Rhaegar could mean House Dayne and Starfall being wiped out.

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56 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

As for R+L staying there the whole time... man, I don't know. I think that at least initially after their disappearance, they may have been staying elsewhere, but that elsewhere must have been a place where no-one would look for them and people wouldn't talk, i.e. minimum or none other population. Which rules out Starfall - too many eyes, ears and mouths, and as we know, someone always tells.

Except that in the case of Starfall, whatever they know there, has never come out as far as we know. 

But I'm not thinking about Starfall or that Lyanna gave birth there. I think she gave birth where she was found and where she died, just as we have been told.

The castle I'm thinking of is Griffin's Roost, and how the group might have stayed during the latter part of the war. Lyanna and the KG can leave by that hidden cove beneath the crag after the news of Rhaegar's death on the Trident arrives. They can ask Paxter Redwyne for a ship to sail them down to Dorne. The ship drops them off near the Wyl and they can continue on their way to the Prince's Pass, and then down to Starfall, but they can't move on from the ToJ because Lyanna has her baby, then everything goes downhill from there. 

While I think that it's obvious why Ned thought the KG were with Viserys, because he would be their new king. I think it's a little less obvious why he thought he would find them at the siege of Storm's End, a place where they are not needed. So I think it's possible that Ned thought that the KG were at Storm's End because one of them was seen there soon after Rhaegar's death. 

I think that there was a contingency plan that Rhaegar had in place if he died during the war. I think that's the whole reason he left 3 KG behind, as opposed to just one. Elia also tries to leave KL after the Battle of the Trident. If Rhaegar had come back victorious from the Trident, he talked about making changes, so he we know he was making plans for the future. I don't think he forgot to make plans for his wife (or wives if he had married Lyanna) and his children.

Anyway . . . only the George can answer these questions.

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58 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

While I am completely open to the possibility that Starfall had major involvement, I don't think we can just extrapolate that from Rhaegar and Arthur being close friends, and Arthur's brother being Lord of Starfall.

Yes, I agree.  I'm not stuck on Starfall.  My main point is that I think there is some evidence that Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ. 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I agree there are several ways to deal with a body or prepare it for transportation.  I think it's highly probable that Lyanna's body was turned over to the Silent Sisters and that she didn't die at the ToJ.  That explains to me who 'they' might be.  Frankly,  I don't even know why the ToJ narrative is necessary to the overall premise.  Removing it doesn't change anything except that she dies somewhere else.  I don't see why that can't be Starfall or that this would contradict Rhaegar's intentions at all.  It make more sense to me that he would keep her in a safe place with attendants at Starfall.  Especially since Arthur Dayne is his close confident and friend.  Otherwise, I have to think of him as a cruel and callous character.  And I don't think he was that at all.

It is certainly not needed for the overall premise but for some reason, GRRM decided to write it that way :-)

"They" was Howland Reed + some person(s), who could have been a midwife, a wetnurse, or any other female servant attending to Lyanna, whose presence is reasonable to expect.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Edit:  Here's what Lady Dustin says:

I know the quote, though I am not sure why you are quoting it.

57 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Except that in the case of Starfall, whatever they know there, has never come out as far as we know. 

That's kinda the point - what do they know? That there is a commoner who claims to be the mother of Ned Stark's bastard? That is hardly news comparable to the Crown Prince staying there for months with his pregnant GF whose brother happens to be the one fighting a rebellion.

57 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The castle I'm thinking of is Griffin's Roost, and how the group might have stayed during the latter part of the war. Lyanna and the KG can leave by that hidden cove beneath the crag after the news of Rhaegar's death on the Trident arrives. They can ask Paxter Redwyne for a ship to sail them down to Dorne. The ship drops them off near the Wyl and they can continue on their way to the Prince's Pass, and then down to Starfall, but they can't move on from the ToJ because Lyanna has her baby, then everything goes downhill from there. 

How does this scenario explain that the place was Rhaegar's "tower of joy", if Lyanna came there only after his death?

57 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

While I think that it's obvious why Ned thought the KG were with Viserys, because he would be their new king. I think it's a little less obvious why he thought he would find them at the siege of Storm's End, a place where they are not needed. So I think it's possible that Ned thought that the KG were at Storm's End because one of them was seen there soon after Rhaegar's death. 

What makes you think that leading the greatest siege of the Rebellion (and one allowing them to get a hostage against one of its leaders) is not a KG job? Plus, after the Sack, it is the last concetration of the loyalist forces, so where else should the three missing KG be, if they were not at the Trident, in KL or with Viserys?

 

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

I know the quote, though I am not sure why you are quoting it.

I'm quoting it because she says specifically that Ned brought back Lyanna's bones.  So we know how her body was treated and we know that this is something the silent sisters do to prepare a corpse.  So we know he didn't return with her ashes. 

We know that Lyanna wanted to be buried at Winterfell and Ned agreed to it.  He knew she was dying and it makes sense that the sisters would have been summoned.  We don't know how long Lyanna lingered before dying.  We also know that when Lyanna dies Ned remembers Howland and the others coming into the room before he goes into a fugue state and remembers nothing after that.  That could have been hours or days.  He didn't oversee the boiling of the bones.  Someone else did that.  Whereas he is very specific about the events at the ToJ.  He isn't in a fugue state, he pulls down the towers and builds the cairns, proceeds to Starfall.

If there were silent sisters at the ToJ, he would have taken care of all the bodies and have them returned to their relatives.  This is the questiion that Lady Dustin asks.  Why didn't he bring back her husbands bones.  The answer is that there was no alternative but to bury them.     

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm quoting it because she says specifically that Ned brought back Lyanna's bones.  So we know how her body was treated and we know that this is something the silent sisters do to prepare a corpse.  So we know he didn't return with her ashes. 

We know that Lyanna wanted to be buried at Winterfell and Ned agreed to it.  He knew she was dying and it makes sense that the sisters would have been summoned.  We don't know how long Lyanna lingered before dying.  We also know that when Lyanna dies Ned remembers Howland and the others coming into the room before he goes into a fugue state and remembers nothing after that.  That could have been hours or days.  He didn't oversee the boiling of the bones.  Someone else did that.  Whereas he is very specific about the events at the ToJ.  He isn't in a fugue state, he pulls down the towers and builds the cairns, proceeds to Starfall.

If there were silent sisters at the ToJ, he would have taken care of all the bodies and have them returned to their relatives.  This is the questiion that Lady Dustin asks.  Why didn't he bring back her husbands bones.  The answer is that there was no alternative but to bury them.     

The destruction of the tower and construction of the cairns is a greater feat of labour than the funerary preparation of a single body.

In Ned's recollection he pulled down the tower, but I interpret that as a great lord's idea of taking an action - he gave the order and common men under his command did the work.

Ned went into Dorne with an army, and although he rode to the tower with only six others, for all we know he left the bulk of that army over the brow of the next hill.

I'd suggest that he did in fact leave a force within riding distance - and that after the fight Homeland left to fetch others from that camp  Then Ned gave orders for the construction of the cairns, rode off to Starfell, and returned to the  location of the former tower around the time his men had finished destroying it. Though his force may not have included Silent Sisters (being primarily northmen), preparation of bodies is a skill that one could easily expect to find amongst camp followers. 

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13 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

The destruction of the tower and construction of the cairns is a greater feat of labour than the funerary preparation of a single body.

If there were camp followers and an army around the corner; why didn't Ned order them to boil all the bodies and return them to their families?

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If there were camp followers and an army around the corner; why didn't Ned order them to boil all the bodies and return them to their families?

Everybody that died at the ToJ was honoured. It wasn't the crypts for Lyanna and shallow graves for the rest.

Ned was sentimental and loved his family, which is the reason Lyanna came home. But Ned was also sentimental and honourable, which is the reason the others did not. The men died fighting honourable foes, so in death Ned have all eight equal honour and lay them to rest together because with their deaths their cause to fight was over.

Edited by Buried Treasure
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1 minute ago, Buried Treasure said:

Everybody that a died ToJ was honoured. It wasn't the crypts for Lyanna and shallow graves for the rest.

But he does in fact do this for others who have died and certainly Lady Dustin wanted her husband's remains.  Why wouldn't he do the same for the men of the north who came with him? 

 https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot 

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

But he does in fact do this for others who have died and certainly Lady Dustin wanted her husband's remains.  Why wouldn't he do the same for the men of the north who came with him? 

 https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot 

Lady Dustin was not present to express her wishes for her husband's body. That she wishes the body has been returned does not mean Ned wasn't trying to honour her husband when he made a different decision.

Your example of Jon Arryn's squire, slain in a tourney 'mishap', is not directly comparable to honourable men dying in war. Especially my point that Ned chose to honour all eight men that died equally, by putting them to lie together in death.

Ned did not take the easiest /least effort course to bury the eight men. It would have been less work to transport 9 bodies away than to have the tower destroyed and the cairns raised.

 

If labour was a limiting factor - if it was only Ned, Howland, the baby and perhaps Wylla present then it would have been more likely the bodies would have been removed. At a minimum they had the 5 spare horses of their dead companions to transport the bodies. The great deal of effort that goes into turning a tower into cairns makes the case that there was a larger force of labourers available to Ned.

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On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

The thing is, we don't know how exactly did people/characters in ASOIAF de-flesh dead bodies. I know that in real world for this purpose are used special bugs, that eat all the flesh off the bones. I have read in a book that museums (not art museums, but those with mummies, and dead stuffed animals, like mammoths or bears) often use this bugs.

As @Ygrain has said, we have a variety of was in which dead bodies are handled in Westeros as shown in the books. None of which require the Silent Sisters to perform.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

So the people from Starfall could have just borrowed from Silent Sisters a box of bugs, and used them to de-flesh Lyanna's body, and none of those SS even saw her, or in what state her body was.

The idea the Silent Sisters, if used in the process of dealing with Lyanna's corpse, need to have been from Starfall is without any support. The Silent Sisters exist throughout much of Westeros where the Seven are worshipped. What does the probability of finding them in far off Starfall have to do with dealing with Lyanna's body at the Tower of Joy? Nothing. I will repeat, the app tells us unequivocally that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy. This is supported by the shout of Lyanna to her brother in Ned's dream. If we start from the evidence the books and our author give us and then work within those parameters we get a much more likely understanding of the story than if we make stuff up outside those parameters. There is plenty of room for creative thinking within the boundaries the evidence set for us.

If you want to show the evidence is wrong, then please show what counter evidence you have to support that claim. It happens. Renly's eyes are not green, but we have evidence that supports the contention the green eyes are a mistake. I'm open to any reasonable evidence that challenges what we think we know, but pure conjecture isn't evidence - reasonable or otherwise.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

And afterwards, probably, the bones were transported and kept in a box (some pretty box, made of wood or stone, with decorations and engravings on it). So, even though Ned brought Lyanna's remnants to King's Landing, it doesn't mean that Robert actually saw them. He was shown the box, and was told that this is Lyanna's bones, and it's unlikely that he opened the box, to actually look at those bones.

In some churches there are boxes like that, with bones of saints or kings. And those boxes are closed. Nobody opens them to look inside to check what is there.

 

I don't disagree that Ned would quite probably have Lyanna's bones put into a receptacle that honors her when he had the ability to do so. Certainly, the carvings in the crypts below Winterfell for both Lyanna and Brandon would show how he wanted them honored and the respect he showed for their remains.

But here I find it very unlikely Ned brings Lyanna's bones back to King's Landing. I don't think he wants any dispute over who would take charge of her burial and where it would be located. Robert was extremely possessive of Lyanna in life, and I don't think he would likely be less so after her death. Ned would much more likely send Lyanna's bones north with whoever takes baby Jon and his wet nurse to Winterfell. Whether or not Ned meets that party before it gets to Winterfell is an open question to me, but I can't see Ned bringing Lyanna's bones, Howland, Jon, or Wylla anywhere near Robert and King's Landing. Much more likely is that Wylla stays in Starfall after Ned leaves there, and Howland takes Jon, a different wet nurse, and Lyanna's bones north.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

It doesn't make sense for Ned to transport Lyanna's body to KL. It would have taken 14+ days even by a ship, so by the time of arrival, her body would have been badly rotten. Tywin's body was only several days dead, and it was in a really bad state. Can you imagine the state of Lyanna's body weeks after her death? It doesn't make sense to transport it like that. Ned's own body also was first de-fleshed, and only then his remnants, or rather his bones, were sent wherever they were sent.

I agree it makes no sense for Ned to transport Lyanna's decaying body over any significant distance from the Tower of Joy where she died. It makes much more sense that her remains were dealt with at the Tower itself. If, for some unknown reason, it was transported away from the Tower, it would make sense if it was only to a very close place Ned had reason to trust.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

So Robert didn't saw Lyanna's body, and also could be that he didn't actually opened the box to look at her bones. But even if he did looked, it's unlikely that he was such an expert in anthropology and biology (or whatever), that he was able to figure out, based on the state of her pelvic bones, that she was pregnant prior her death.

We agree it is unlikely Robert saw Lyanna's bones, for all the reason I stated above, but it doesn't take hugely specialized knowledge to read the markings on pelvic bones. Certainly, maesters with a silver link would likely know, and probably many who haven't won the link would as well. Among the small folk, it is likely any who deal with childbirth, or burials, might have the ability to notice the significance of the markings on her bones. I do think that the Silent Sisters would be among those most likely to notice. All the more reason to not involve them.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

Also, if people from Starfall summoned Silent Sisters, they could have came to fetch them from Oldtown, didn't informed them where they will take them, didn't told them who died, just brought them to a room with Lyanna's body, and made them to prepare it for transportation. If on the way to Starfall they were kept locked in a cabin without a window (something like Tyrion on his way to Pentos), and when they were brought off the ship and to Starfall, their escorts covered their eyes with a blindfold, then they had no idea where were they, and for whom did they performed that procedure. It's not like Lyanna was some sort of celebrity/instantly recognizable. 

Here, I believe you are reaching for some totally unsupported and convoluted theory. People die everyday all over Westeros. Their bodies are dealt with without resort to sending to Oldtown or any other major city for specialists in the handling of corpses. There is no reason to go to this length of speculation without some real evidence to support it.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

Furthermore, even if those Silent Sisters decided to break their oath of silence, and wanted to tell to someone what they saw, they would have been unable to tell anything revealing, because they themselves saw nearly nothing, not enough to identify where they were taken, or who was that dead girl.

It doesn't take breaking a vow of silence to communicate information. Writing works extremely well in doing so. What the Silent Sister's do have, that others may not, is extensive experience in dealing with dead bodies. Noticing markings on the bones of dead women who had been pregnant is something would should expect them to be aware of. Again, a powerful reason for Ned not to involve them in dealing with Lyanna's body.

Nor is it necessary for the Silent Sisters to know who Lyanna was in life. They only have to be aware that a man they can identify brought the body of a young woman to them, and the bones of that woman showed the signs of pregnancy. Her body, before rendering it to bones, would likely show signs of the cause of death as well.

On 8/24/2020 at 10:01 AM, Megorova said:

And there was no reason for anyone, not even for some maester at King's Landing, to inspect Lyanna's bones. Thus no one, outside of wherever Lyanna gave birth to Jon, were able to find out afterwards, that she was pregnant.

There is if they have an opportunity to do so. Not everyone has reason to accept Ned's tale at face value. He has political enemies that would love to prove him disloyal and guilty of lying to Robert.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

How does this scenario explain that the place was Rhaegar's "tower of joy", if Lyanna came there only after his death?

I'm pretty sure I didn't say they came there only after his death, or I didn't explain myself properly, which happens frequently because you're supposed to read my thoughts (it's just a joke btw). I think Rhaegar and Lyanna stopped there on their up the Prince's Pass. I don't think they were there for a lengthy period of time. Maybe they found out Lyanna was pregnant while they were there, so he named it the ToJ :dunno:

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

What makes you think that leading the greatest siege of the Rebellion (and one allowing them to get a hostage against one of its leaders) is not a KG job? Plus, after the Sack, it is the last concetration of the loyalist forces, so where else should the three missing KG be, if they were not at the Trident, in KL or with Viserys?

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but Lyanna has been missing and three KG are also missing. Wouldn't Ned think they are with her? And if the missing KG were at Storm's End with Mace Tyrell, then it would be common knowledge that they are there, no? Ned expecting them to be on the Trident with Rhaegar makes sense. Ned expecting to find them in KL with Aerys makes sense. Ned expecting them with Viserys because their vows compel them to be with him makes sense. Ned expecting them to be with Mace Tyrell at Storm's End after the Sack of KL doesn't a whole lot of sense, imo. This is why I think one of the 3 KG might have been in the vicinity of SE shortly after the Trident.

I think the answer to the riddle goes through Ethan Glover. That's probably the whole reason he was kept alive. 

If I misunderstood what you're saying, sorry. Raging headache.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose
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16 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

Lady Dustin was not present to express her wishes for her husband's body. That she wishes the body has been returned does not mean Ned wasn't trying to honour her husband when he made a different decision.

I don't think it's a matter of Lady Dustin expressing her wishes.  It's a question of Ned doing the right thing given the circumstances.  If he could have, he would have sent the remains back.  He would have known that his six good men, his friends and companions would want to be returned home for burial.   It might account for some of the bitterness he feels about the ToJ. 

Generally speaking, after years of people combing through the books with a fine toothed comb; even at this late stage, I still think it's possible to find new information and things that have been overlooked.  I think this is one of them.    

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58 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

The destruction of the tower and construction of the cairns is a greater feat of labour than the funerary preparation of a single body.

In Ned's recollection he pulled down the tower, but I interpret that as a great lord's idea of taking an action - he gave the order and common men under his command did the work.

Ned has access to the horses he and his companions brought to the Tower. He also can use fire to destroy the timbers normally used as part of such a tower. It doesn't take an army to destroy a small watchtower. Ned may also have had the use of others he finds at the Tower to help in breaking down the Tower enough to use the stones to create the cairns used to bury the dead at the Tower.

1 hour ago, Buried Treasure said:

Ned went into Dorne with an army, and although he rode to the tower with only six others, for all we know he left the bulk of that army over the brow of the next hill.

No he did not. Martin has told us explicitly Ned did not bring his troops into Dorne

Quote

Ned's army did not accompany him to Dorne, no. There were no battles in Dorne during Robert's Rebellion, though doubtless there were minor skirmishes along the borders. (bold emphasis added)

Nor would it make sense for Ned to leave the resources of an army parked out of sight over the hill, in order to fight some personal battle with the Kingsguard. Ned is a capable, and most would say exemplary, general. He is not a fool who leaves his army over the next hill. Ned goes into Dorne with he men he chooses for a reason. That reason is secrecy, not some personal vendetta against the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm quoting it because she says specifically that Ned brought back Lyanna's bones.  So we know how her body was treated and we know that this is something the silent sisters do to prepare a corpse.  So we know he didn't return with her ashes. 

We know that Lyanna wanted to be buried at Winterfell and Ned agreed to it.  He knew she was dying and it makes sense that the sisters would have been summoned.  We don't know how long Lyanna lingered before dying.  We also know that when Lyanna dies Ned remembers Howland and the others coming into the room before he goes into a fugue state and remembers nothing after that.  That could have been hours or days.  He didn't oversee the boiling of the bones.  Someone else did that.  Whereas he is very specific about the events at the ToJ.  He isn't in a fugue state, he pulls down the towers and builds the cairns, proceeds to Starfall.

Ah, I see. But would Lady Dustin know the specifics? It was definitely general knowledge that Ned had brought Lyanna home, but I don't think that it was widely telegraphed if it was bones or ashes. Lady Dustin may have just made an assumption because bones seem to be the preferred way.

But yeah, if it was bones, that would require someone to handle the process, but that still doesn't mean the SS were at ToJ - at least, I definitely wouldn't expect them to be a part of "they". I mean, imagine the situation - someone is dying, and you take the SS along when you're coming to check on them? Like, "are you dead yet? - Oops, will come later"?  It would be more likely if Ned and Howland transported Lyanna's body somewhere not particularly far where it could be tended to, but silent or not, I'm not sure if I would rely on no-one finding out that she had given birth.

 

 

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:
I'm pretty sure I didn't say they came there only after his death, or I didn't explain myself properly, which happens frequently because you're supposed to read my thoughts (it's just a joke btw). I think Rhaegar and Lyanna stopped there on their up the Prince's Pass. I don't think they were there for a lengthy period of time. Maybe they found out Lyanna was pregnant while they were there, so he named it the ToJ

Ah, I see. It sounded as if they never visited ToJ prior.

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but Lyanna has been missing and three KG are also missing. Wouldn't Ned think they are with her? And if the missing KG were at Storm's End with Mace Tyrell, then it would be common knowledge that they are there, no? Ned expecting them to be on the Trident with Rhaegar makes sense. Ned expecting to find them in KL with Aerys makes sense. Ned expecting them with Viserys because their vows compel them to be with him makes sense. Ned expecting them to be with Mace Tyrell at Storm's End after the Sack of KL doesn't a whole lot of sense, imo.

At the time of war when the KG are needed for the protection of the royal family or as generals, I don't think guarding the prince's mistress is the right job for them - certainly not all three of them.

 

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think the answer to the riddle goes through Ethan Glover. That's probably the whole reason he was kept alive. 

Not sure why he was kept alive but I agree that his presence among the seven is notable and most likely will play some role in the reveal of how things happened.

 

1 minute ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If I misunderstood what you're saying, sorry. Raging headache.

NP. Get better soon :-)

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's a matter of Lady Dustin expressing her wishes.  It's a question of Ned doing the right thing given the circumstances.  If he could have, he would have sent the remains back.  He would have known that his six good men, his friends and companions would want to be returned home for burial.   It might account for some of the bitterness he feels about the ToJ. 

Generally speaking, after years of people combing through the books with a fine toothed comb; even at this late stage, I still think it's possible to find new information and things that have been overlooked.  I think this is one of them.    

The fight at the ToJ and Lyanna's death merge seamlessly in Ned's fever dream.

That does not mean she died at the ToJ.

GRRM wrote "seven fought and two rode away" (paraphrased) and "they found him ..." (paraphrased).

Two rode away contradicts they as they is more than one but Ned and Howland rode away. 

GRRM did not write that Ned found Lyanna in the ToJ.

Let's consider this: after the ToJ fight Ned was down to Howland and himself, maybe knowing where Lyanna was, but not her condition. He buries his comrades and the KG where they fell. Maybe not knowing what would happen to him when riding into Starfall? There he finds a dying Lyanna, and turns her body over to the silent sisters. Kind of makes sense.

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7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, I see. But would Lady Dustin know the specifics? It was definitely general knowledge that Ned had brought Lyanna home, but I don't think that it was widely telegraphed if it was bones or ashes. Lady Dustin may have just made an assumption because bones seem to be the preferred way.

I'm going to go with George is specifically telling us something here. And he puts the question in Lady Dustin's mouth: Why weren't her husband's bones returned?  The answer to my mind is that there wasn't an alternative at the ToJ.  

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12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

The fight at the ToJ and Lyanna's death merge seamlessly in Ned's fever dream.

That does not mean she died at the ToJ.

GRRM wrote "seven fought and two rode away" (paraphrased) and "they found him ..." (paraphrased).

Two rode away contradicts they as they is more than one but Ned and Howland rode away. 

GRRM did not write that Ned found Lyanna in the ToJ.

Let's consider this: after the ToJ fight Ned was down to Howland and himself, maybe knowing where Lyanna was, but not her condition. He buries his comrades and the KG where they fell. Maybe not knowing what would happen to him when riding into Starfall? There he finds a dying Lyanna, and turns her body over to the silent sisters. Kind of makes sense.

Seven fought and two rode away, implies that of the seven in Ned's party only two rode away. Five of Ned's companions died. It says nothing about the three Kingsguard, or anyone else who was there. We know Lord Dustin, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, and Ser Mark Ryswell all die. We know Ned and Howland lived. I think I'm missing your point? Perhaps you have the quote wrong? I believe it is "Seven fought against three. Two rode away" or something like that. It still doesn't mean there was only 10 people at the Tower. It means there were ten combatants at the Tower, and only two of them survive.

Martin did write or approved of the explicit reference in the app that says Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy.

Edited by SFDanny
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