alienarea Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 On 8/29/2020 at 1:00 PM, Ygrain said: In other words, there is no piece of text you can offer stating or at least suggesting the lack of water and wood at ToJ. And do you keep dreaming about the same elements connected to a real event all the time? Lyanna in the bed of blood does not actually appear in the dream, yet Ned still lumps her in as a part of what the dream is about. And this matters how? Even if she persisted a couple of days after the fight, which is certainly not impossible, it would still be the place where she died. First, it is in no way a given that it was SS who treated Lyanna's bones. Second, even if Lyanna died elsewhere, Ned could still arrange for the SS to be sent to ToJ - unless the time needed for fetching them was actually much longer than for arranging the burial that he did give them and the corpses would start to decompose, (which is really not something you want to do to your friends and esteemed enemies.) Also, arranging for Lyanna's remains to be transported is not a matter of choice for Ned, he promised it, so he had to do whatever it took to fulfill that promise, even travelling with her body already rotting (unless there were some ingredients that could prevent or at least slow the decay, which definitely wouldn't be available in the amounts needed for all the other eight bodies). I still think cremation would be easiest, but again - collecting enough fuel for one pyre is way easier than for eight more. A little correction: Lyanna is placed there because Ned states that he repeatedly dreams about her, the fight with the KG and the tower. The only part here I can agree with is that "return of Dawn" is totally a coverup. The rest doesn't really make sense. Why take newborn Jon to ToJ, where you lack the resources and it is close to Robert's territory, from Starfall, where you can easily arrange the care and transport to safety? And if you take him from Lyanna, why would you inform her where you are going to hide? If both Jon and Lyanna are at ToJ, you still need to get Jon away and you cannot return to KL or your forces exactly from there because you wouldn't convince anyone that he is your baby. You need to put time and place between Jon and ToJ, as well as yourself - if you have been gone for months, there are tons of possibilites where you might have picked him (personally, I'd ask Howland to take a ship and bring Jon North where I might pick him somewhere along the way, while I travel back to KL, with Lyanna's bones, to give Robert a shoulder to cry on. No baby, no suspicions). If Ned turns up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon, no-one has an idea that he had gone to find Lya or what he had been doing prior, so they have no reason to question if the baby is his. If Ran's theory about Jon at Starfall is correct, then the scenario works even better - Ned goes to "return Dawn" and pick his natural son, and the Daynes cannot really refuse him. And since Wylla arrived well before him, no connection to the ToJ events there. I guess we agree that the old dream confirms that the events happened in this order: 1. Fight at the ToJ 2. Lyanna in her bed of blood What the dream does not confirm is how much time elapses between 1. and 2. We know that Ned tore down the tower and buildt cairns for the fallen. In my understanding this does not make sense if Lyanna had been at the ToJ. Your sister just died, there's a newborn around, and you build eight cairns? Really? But if you do not know that your sister is dying in a bed of blood, and you just fought this epic fight losing five of your best friends, and killing the best knight of the seven kingdoms plus two kingsguards, then you can build eight cairns to honor the dead and not to leave them to the vultures and jackals. After you have done this, you pick up the fabled sword and return it to the family, either because you already know your sister is there, or because you ask for information on her whereabouts in return. And because you ride some days through the sands of Dorne from the ToJ to Starfall, this travel doe s not make it into the dream. The dream chronicles the events, not their details. For example, we don't know what Howland did to have Ned kill Arthur. I do not read anything in the books contradicting my interpretation. I also provide an explanation why those who died at the ToJ got buried there while Lyanna's bones got send home. But yours requires the presence of at least one unnamed servant at the ToJ ("a tower long fallen", not a Best Western Motel). And no explanation for sending back Lyanna's bones while burying your friends. In court, which is the stronger case? Khal Rhaego Targaryen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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