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The Sunland Lord

Will The Slave Rebellion in Essos End Like That of Spartacus?

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8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Although you do make a very good point about Braavos. Braavos is in a very difficult situation. Braavos is about as anti-slavery as it comes and Braavos is also pro-Targaryen....however, Braavos has legitimate issues with dragons and dragonlords. However, Daenerys is -- indisputably -- doing good work. In fact, her actions are no different than the Sealord's rescue of the wildlings and her policies are no different from Braavosi policy. Yet....she seems to be slowly ushering in a new Valyrian age for Essos. She wouldn't be able to end slavery in Essos (and then, save the world from the Others) if it hadn't been for dragons.

It's like Braavos is getting exactly what they want only to realize it's not at all what they wanted.

However, the Sealord of Braavos is a huge determining factor here. Given the Sealord's age, this is likely the same Sealord who met Dany as a baby and sponsored/coordinated a pact to restore her and her brother to their birthright.

Even if the Sealord of Braavos commandeers the Braavosi people into allying with Daenerys, the present Sealord (who is very old) can die of old age which would leave the next Sealord free to undo all that he had done.

I dunno about that. Braavos maintained a diplomatic relationship with the Targs, even with the dragons around. It went as far a betrothal. The betrothal didn't end well, but still...

And, as you say, the Sealord had a hand in the pact between the Martells and Viserys. If Braavos were so prejudiced against anyone of Valyrian descent, they could have easily ended the Targ line in the five years child Viserys and baby Dany were residing there, or in the many times they visited Braavos in the years following.

There are probably a few Braavosi who are nervous about dragons - I speculate that Jaqen H'ghar could be in Oldtown for this reason - but I don't think Braavos as a whole have such huge hate-boners for Targs and dragons that they'd become slavery apologists.

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16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:
 

Yes it has.

Have you not read the Jaime and Brienne chapters from Feast and Dance or the Arya chapters from Storm?

Daenerys isn't colonizing anything.

Although you do make a very good point about Braavos. Braavos is in a very difficult situation. Braavos is about as anti-slavery as it comes and Braavos is also pro-Targaryen....however, Braavos has legitimate issues with dragons and dragonlords. However, Daenerys is -- indisputably -- doing good work. In fact, her actions are no different than the Sealord's rescue of the wildlings and her policies are no different from Braavosi policy. Yet....she seems to be slowly ushering in a new Valyrian age for Essos. She wouldn't be able to end slavery in Essos (and then, save the world from the Others) if it hadn't been for dragons.

It's like Braavos is getting exactly what they want only to realize it's not at all what they wanted.

However, the Sealord of Braavos is a huge determining factor here. Given the Sealord's age, this is likely the same Sealord who met Dany as a baby and sponsored/coordinated a pact to restore her and her brother to their birthright.

Even if the Sealord of Braavos commandeers the Braavosi people into allying with Daenerys, the present Sealord (who is very old) can die of old age which would leave the next Sealord free to undo all that he had done.

I think Daenerys and her people already realize that. After all, it is precisely the reason why she stayed in Meereen so long to begin with.

For most of her final chapter in Dance, Daenerys is actually trying to get back to Meereen.

I expect that the Braavosi will be very sympathetic to what Daenerys is doing in Essos, but will still be alarmed at the rapid growth of a great power on their threshold. 

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On 8/13/2020 at 7:05 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I dunno about that. Braavos maintained a diplomatic relationship with the Targs, even with the dragons around. It went as far a betrothal. The betrothal didn't end well, but still...

And, as you say, the Sealord had a hand in the pact between the Martells and Viserys. If Braavos were so prejudiced against anyone of Valyrian descent, they could have easily ended the Targ line in the five years child Viserys and baby Dany were residing there, or in the many times they visited Braavos in the years following.

There are probably a few Braavosi who are nervous about dragons - I speculate that Jaqen H'ghar could be in Oldtown for this reason - but I don't think Braavos as a whole have such huge hate-boners for Targs and dragons that they'd become slavery apologists.

If they cant poison the dragons they'd rather have them embroiled in Westerosi politics like Aegon I.

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On 8/14/2020 at 4:45 AM, SeanF said:

I expect that the Braavosi will be very sympathetic to what Daenerys is doing in Essos, but will still be alarmed at the rapid growth of a great power on their threshold. 

They will be very supportive if they are indeed sympathetic to the slaves.  I think they are.  Power is needed to bring on positive change.  The slavers are not going to stop until they are forced to stop.  Braavos on its own is not powerful enough to fight the slavers and free the slaves.  They need Daenerys Targaryen.  

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On 8/13/2020 at 6:49 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

The role of the liberator is to set the slaves free.  The rest is really up to the free people to solve.  That is what freedom is.  They're free and then the responsibility and the choices are theirs to make.  

Dragons do more than conquer.  You mistake them for the ironborn.  Dragons built the sept of Baelor and the capital city of King's Landing.  They built Westeros. 

The problem in Slaver's Bay are the evil Ghiscari trash and their allies who desire the old slaving system back.  Daenerys is the greatest Targaryen of them all.  She is not going to leave Meereen unresolved.    

I agree.  The Dothraki will be repurposed to enforce a future law which will prohibit slavery.  It makes sense because they will have the chance, as a people, to earn redemption.  They were a large part of the slave trade after all.  

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If they cant poison the dragons they'd rather have them embroiled in Westerosi politics like Aegon I.

So according to you, Braavos was worried about being under the thumb of Valyrians again, and they solve this problem by *check notes* helping the Targs amass power. Makes sense.

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On 7/28/2020 at 7:45 AM, Mithras said:

I couldn't care less about Dany's anti-slavery campaign, or Essos in general. It is all filler, and a very shallow one at that. It is quite useless to make character study of Dany based on this filler slavery story. Westeros is the place where the actual story takes place. Meereen has turned into a narrative pit that is swallowing GRRM and all the characters that he brought there.

I really don't agree. 

The last book is building up the slave revolt in Volantis with Vogarro's whore and her "tell her to come soon, we are waiting for her", the slave ships from Qarth, and Benerro/Moqorro trying to instigate an uprising. 

If the slave trade is damaged, then the entire political situation in Essos comes undone which gives room for Braavos to take a grab at more power. 

Then we have Pentos and the tattered prince and Ilyrio Moptas. 

Things are about to come undone in Essos in TWOW. 

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15 hours ago, Unit A2 said:

I agree.  The Dothraki will be repurposed to enforce a future law which will prohibit slavery.  It makes sense because they will have the chance, as a people, to earn redemption.  They were a large part of the slave trade after all.  

Jorah too is slowly getting redeemed and paying for his sin.  He sold poachers into slavery and now he supports the liberator. 

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

So according to you, Braavos was worried about being under the thumb of Valyrians again, and they solve this problem by *check notes* helping the Targs amass power. Makes sense.

They will begin to see Daenerys Targaryen as an ally. 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I really don't agree. 

The last book is building up the slave revolt in Volantis with Vogarro's whore and her "tell her to come soon, we are waiting for her", the slave ships from Qarth, and Benerro/Moqorro trying to instigate an uprising. 

If the slave trade is damaged, then the entire political situation in Essos comes undone which gives room for Braavos to take a grab at more power. 

Then we have Pentos and the tattered prince and Ilyrio Moptas. 

Things are about to come undone in Essos in TWOW. 

Dany will have to clear the rubble and bring down the sadistic ruling powers in Essos in order to begin building a new empire built on freedom.  More drama, more action will be coming. 

Barristan, Arya, Jorah, and Tyrion are all in Essos.  The center of the story has shifted.  I'm loving it.  I have never been thrilled with the north and the river lands.  The east is far more interesting to me.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/13/2020 at 9:38 AM, BlackLightning said:

However, the Sealord of Braavos is a huge determining factor here. Given the Sealord's age, this is likely the same Sealord who met Dany as a baby and sponsored/coordinated a pact to restore her and her brother to their birthright.

On 8/18/2020 at 5:43 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

So according to you, Braavos was worried about being under the thumb of Valyrians again, and they solve this problem by *check notes* helping the Targs amass power. Makes sense.

BlackLightning theorized that Braavos supported Dany and Viserys, so if TRUE - that might be an explanation. Distract them like Aegon was distracted by Westeros. Let them die in a conquest doomed to fail (per Varys/Illyrio's plans). And, even then, they weren't dragonlords.

But I dont really subscribe to the Sealord supporting Dany anyway. 

Braavos sent aid to Westeros to try to stop Aegon in the conquest. The most they'll do to "help" Dany is send aid to slaves; but they're not going to TRUST Dany to do jack shit.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

BlackLightning theorized that Braavos supported Dany and Viserys, so if TRUE - that might be an explanation. Distract them like Aegon was distracted by Westeros. Let them die in a conquest doomed to fail (per Varys/Illyrio's plans). And, even then, they weren't dragonlords.

But I dont really subscribe to the Sealord supporting Dany anyway. 

Braavos sent aid to Westeros to try to stop Aegon in the conquest. The most they'll do to "help" Dany is send aid to slaves; but they're not going to TRUST Dany to do jack shit.

Distract? What are you talking about? If a cat is already heading toward it's feeding bowl, you aren't distracting it by piling on more food.

The Vale, not the whole of Westeros (which didn't even exist at that point) had a dozen Braavosi warships. To compare, Braavos sent a hundred to Lys. Nothing after that it seems, so they can't have been that invested in preventing a Targ conquest of Westeros. As I mentioned earlier, they maintained a diplomatic relationship after the conquest. 4 or 5 generations later, the son of the Sealord was betrothed to a dragonriding Targ issue.

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I believe the slave revolution in Saint-Domingue (modern day Haiti). I believe it is the best example of a slave revolution that was able to humiliate and defeat both Napoleons empire and the British. Saint-Domingue was the wealthiest coLony in the Americas during the 18th century and it was an extremely harsh and exciting slave society. African slaves outnumbered French and creole whites close to the proportion in Slavers Bay much like in other sugar and coffee slave societies during the period. A new book about the leader of the revolution, Toussaint Louverture, is actually called the black Spartacus. I guess it is easy to forget about what the slaves in Haiti achieved. They used tactics that would be on par with Dany. The colony actually renewed its allegiance to France under the Directorate when slavery was abolished and Toussaint even became an excellent general in the French military. It was only until Napoleon reinstated slavery that the full break with colonialism was achieved. Sadly the slaver societies of our world made Haiti pay a huge indemnity. That is why the people who favor the continuation of slavery in Essos sicken me. There weren't any elite eunuch soldiers available in Haiti as well haha. Haiti was reduced to a broken spectre of itself much like Slavers Bays economy was totally dependent on the slave trade. The Europeans were terrified of slave revolts. Dany left the yunkish slave class alone and limited the destruction of  Mereens aristocracy. The North should have executed every major slave owner who committed treason during the civil war it would have spared us the pain of racial strife and the rise of right wing extremism in America so yea slave owners deserve one fate only: fire and blood.

Edited by Kiszka
Additional expanation

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I have been lurking here for a few months and I have never seen anyone refer to the Haitian Revolution. The slaves outnumbered the French ten to one which is possibly a bigger demographic problem than Slavers Bay. Also the French (and the Spanish) never had a taboo against taking a slave concubine and freeing their offspring like in the Anglo colonies. The Code Noir actually gave them and their offspring certain rights. The leaders of the revolution were drawn from this class, which was viewed as a threat to French dominance in the colony that produced the biggest proportion of coffee and sugar in the 18th century. It cracks me up that the same demographic issues in Slavers Bay is viewed as "fantastical" or silly. Its dominance of the slave trade. An international coalition is  besieging Mereen in the same manner as Haiti. I hope the history of the most successful slave revolution in world history. I think the only one that can compare is the rock Zanj Rebelliom in Mesopotamia against the  Abbasid Caliph are in the 9th century was successful for several years in the Basra region. I have never met anyone who studies these wonderful examples of our drive for freedom it is quite sad.

Edited by Kiszka

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On 8/24/2020 at 1:12 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

BlackLightning theorized that Braavos supported Dany and Viserys, so if TRUE - that might be an explanation. Distract them like Aegon was distracted by Westeros. Let them die in a conquest doomed to fail (per Varys/Illyrio's plans). And, even then, they weren't dragonlords.

But I dont really subscribe to the Sealord supporting Dany anyway. 

Braavos sent aid to Westeros to try to stop Aegon in the conquest. The most they'll do to "help" Dany is send aid to slaves; but they're not going to TRUST Dany to do jack shit.

Oh okay I see what you're saying.

I think she will have to prove herself to the Braavosi over the course of The Winds of Winter that she is worthy and reliable. While I think that the Braavosi will eventually support her exploits in Essos or even Westeros -- initially at least -- because of their policy towards slavery, I do believe that they won't fully trust her and will have a contingency plan for their contingency plan.

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On 8/18/2020 at 9:25 AM, butterweedstrover said:

I really don't agree. 

The last book is building up the slave revolt in Volantis with Vogarro's whore and her "tell her to come soon, we are waiting for her", the slave ships from Qarth, and Benerro/Moqorro trying to instigate an uprising. 

If the slave trade is damaged, then the entire political situation in Essos comes undone which gives room for Braavos to take a grab at more power. 

Then we have Pentos and the tattered prince and Ilyrio Moptas. 

Things are about to come undone in Essos in TWOW. 

I agree.

What Dany is doing in Essos is of the utmost importance. For one, this is where Dany is not only amassing an army but this is also where Dany is getting food and supplies. She can bring both to Westeros to help the people of Westeros survive the invasion of the Others and winter itself.

It's also worth noting that (I believe) GRRM is sending the message that decentralized governments often do more harm than good. GRRM is not anti-monarchy; I don't even think he is anti-absolute monarchy. He just argues that a strong centralized government keeps peace better than a strong decentralized government that has a lot of moving parts (aka feudalism). He also argues that if you must have an absolute monarch, they must be so benevolent and so powerful almost to the point of being godlike so as to inspire both widespread love and fear. Divine right and divine power must truly be divine which explains why Bran, Dany and Jon are the ones to watch as far as being the ruler of all Westeros.

I say all that to say that Essos is important because Dany will effectively be ending the age of feudalism in Westeros and starting the age of absolutism. When she comes to Westeros to claim her rightful place as Queen, Lady and Protector, she won't have to rely on the fealty or obeisance of her subjects. She won't have to play games of thrones because she will have the power to enforce her will and impose it. She will have multiple types of infantries, a cavalry, a navy and an air force. If something happens to Dany and Bran inherits what Dany created and brought, then Bran too will have the same power.

Another reason why Dany's actions in Essos are important are because it sets the stage for her actions in Westeros. By the time she comes to Westeros, she will have had more experience at ruling, conquering and leading than just about any other character outside of Stannis and Euron. It makes her a huge threat to not only them but the entire establishment of Westeros. This experience needs to make sense given her age. Essos is like her sandbox.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree.

What Dany is doing in Essos is of the utmost importance. For one, this is where Dany is not only amassing an army but this is also where Dany is getting food and supplies. She can bring both to Westeros to help the people of Westeros survive the invasion of the Others and winter itself.

It's also worth noting that (I believe) GRRM is sending the message that decentralized governments often do more harm than good. GRRM is not anti-monarchy; I don't even think he is anti-absolute monarchy. He just argues that a strong centralized government keeps peace better than a strong decentralized government that has a lot of moving parts (aka feudalism). He also argues that if you must have an absolute monarch, they must be so benevolent and so powerful almost to the point of being godlike so as to inspire both widespread love and fear. Divine right and divine power must truly be divine which explains why Bran, Dany and Jon are the ones to watch as far as being the ruler of all Westeros.

I say all that to say that Essos is important because Dany will effectively be ending the age of feudalism in Westeros and starting the age of absolutism. When she comes to Westeros to claim her rightful place as Queen, Lady and Protector, she won't have to rely on the fealty or obeisance of her subjects. She won't have to play games of thrones because she will have the power to enforce her will and impose it. She will have multiple types of infantries, a cavalry, a navy and an air force. If something happens to Dany and Bran inherits what Dany created and brought, then Bran too will have the same power.

Another reason why Dany's actions in Essos are important are because it sets the stage for her actions in Westeros. By the time she comes to Westeros, she will have had more experience at ruling, conquering and leading than just about any other character outside of Stannis and Euron. It makes her a huge threat to not only them but the entire establishment of Westeros. This experience needs to make sense given her age. Essos is like her sandbox.

I also don't think his books are a criticism of noblesse-oblige or hereditary royalty. 

When a family is instilled with notions of honor and responsibility, they can better uplift society than just some politician grasping out power due to personal ambition. 

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18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I also don't think his books are a criticism of noblesse-oblige or hereditary royalty. 

When a family is instilled with notions of honor and responsibility, they can better uplift society than just some politician grasping out power due to personal ambition. 

I didn't say that his books are a criticism of hereditary royalty or noblesse-oblige. As a matter of fact, where did you get noblesse-oblige from? What I am saying is that his books are a criticism of feudal royalty where the king is weak, the lords are strong and the people are little more than unprotected slaves.

Now imagine if that family who was instilled with notions of honor and responsibility didn't have the political and martial power required to uplift society? Good luck to them.

Now imagine if that family had the political and martial power necessary to make their good values binding and widespread? They can actually make changes.

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I have been browsing through this thread with interest over the past couple of days, and here is my two cents. 

I just don't see slavery returning to Slavers Bay. I think slaverys days as an institution were numbered the moment Dany ordered the sack of Astapor. This action caused events to be set in motion that now have their own momentum, and the momentum so far has been in the direction of slaverys downfall.

Sure, the slave powers remaining in Essos still have a lot of power. We got a taste of that in ADwD, when we met the various sellsword companies marching alongside the Yunkish commanders and their slave armies. If you ask me, its not a great sign for your cause when the sellswords are more diciplined and competant than your own conscripted armies.

The other thing that seems clear to me is that if the pro-slavery factions lose the battle of Mereen, that's a pretty huge setback for them. Probably a fatal one. We have Yunkai, Quarth, Volantis, various factions within Mereen, and the companies they have hired to fight for them all congregating to wipe out Dany's forces in Mereen. If they don't manage to succeed, they'll have thrown all of their greatest might at Dany and lost. This one battle, which GRRM appears to be setting up as a victory for Dany's allies, will be the slavers best and only shot at reversing what she set in motion.

With the slaves getting restless in Volantis, and the emergence of Benero as an instigator for their discontent, a loss for Volantis at Mereen would be proof that the Masters are losing their grip on power. What we saw in Volantis also indicates that Dany's anti-slavery crusade is bigger than she is and will likely outlast her presense, if she does leave Essos. 

To me, it looks pretty bleak for the slave masters in Essos. They are reacting to the disruption of the slave trade, and they may not be able to set it back up, despite their best efforts

Edited by Nathan Stark

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23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I didn't say that his books are a criticism of hereditary royalty or noblesse-oblige. As a matter of fact, where did you get noblesse-oblige from? What I am saying is that his books are a criticism of feudal royalty where the king is weak, the lords are strong and the people are little more than unprotected slaves.

Now imagine if that family who was instilled with notions of honor and responsibility didn't have the political and martial power required to uplift society? Good luck to them.

Now imagine if that family had the political and martial power necessary to make their good values binding and widespread? They can actually make changes.

I'm sorry if my post was misunderstood. 

I was just adding something to your point about centralize power. 

I wrote about it in my feudalism thread, but its ok if you disagree. 

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12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'm sorry if my post was misunderstood. 

I was just adding something to your point about centralize power. 

I wrote about it in my feudalism thread, but its ok if you disagree. 

Oh.

No, I agree.

17 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I have been browsing through this thread with interest over the past couple of days, and here is my two cents. 

I just don't see slavery returning to Slavers Bay. I think slaverys days as an institution were numbered the moment Dany ordered the sack of Astapor. This action caused events to be set in motion that now have their own momentum, and the momentum so far has been in the direction of slaverys downfall.

Sure, the slave powers remaining in Essos still have a lot of power. We got a taste of that in ADwD, when we met the various sellsword companies marching alongside the Yunkish commanders and their slave armies. If you ask me, its not a great sign for your cause when the sellswords are more diciplined and competant than your own conscripted armies.

The other thing that seems clear to me is that if the pro-slavery factions lose the battle of Mereen, that's a pretty huge setback for them. Probably a fatal one. We have Yunkai, Quarth, Volantis, various factions within Mereen, and the companies they have hired to fight for them all congregating to wipe out Dany's forces in Mereen. If they don't manage to succeed, they'll have thrown all of their greatest might at Dany and lost. This one battle, which GRRM appears to be setting up as a victory for Dany's allies, will be the slavers best and only shot at reversing what she set in motion.

With the slaves getting restless in Volantis, and the emergence of Benero as an instigator for their discontent, a loss for Volantis at Mereen would be proof that the Masters are losing their grip on power. What we saw in Volantis also indicates that Dany's anti-slavery crusade is bigger than she is and will likely outlast her presense, if she does leave Essos. 

To me, it looks pretty bleak for the slave masters in Essos. They are reacting to the disruption of the slave trade, and they may not be able to set it back up, despite their best efforts

I agree.

I think this anti-slavery thing has took on a life of its own. Even if Dany never did anything again, the slaves across Essos know too much and have seen too much. They see that while it is bloody and ugly business, it works. At this point, the slaves of Volantis will free themselves with or without Dany. And the other Free Cities -- even Lys and Tyrosh -- will follow suit.

Even if the Yunkish, the Meereenese and Qartheen forces win, the circumstances of their victory will have severely depleted and damaged their forces so that they couldn't quell a massive slave revolt...especially the Yunkish.

If the Dothraki are cowed or otherwise persuaded to make even the most minor adjustments, the slave trade in Essos is over.

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