US Politics: A small step from going viral to going postal

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

The sad fact is a lot of people don't think he is racist, because he thinks and says the same thing as them, and they don't see themselves as racist. It's the old "I have black friends, I hire black people to work in my company, I have a beer with them, I don't complain that there are black people in the bar I go to. They are more violent and have lower IQ than white people, but that's just fax man, truth can't be racist. I don't support Neo-Nazis or Stormfront types." kind of thing. Probably same with him being sexist. If you think your attitude is normal and natural and Trump aligns with that, then ipso facto Trump isn't sexist. Not really sure how one can parse "grab 'em by the pu$$y" but I guess some people find a way.

It's a fair point. I listened to Left, Right, and Center (podcast) yesterday, and it was one of those episodes where they just have clips of people "on both sides" talking. It was equally infuriating and illuminating to hear how this stuff is rationalized, how the arguments Trumpers make against so-called "communists" are exactly the same as the arguments they decry as bad faith.

One lady, for example, said how the "baseless" impeachment against Trump was only done to begin sewing destructive seeds in the US so the socialists could take over, and all this strategy came from the communist manifesto--which she learned from Fox News. (It's forty pages, lady, read the fucking thing...), and in the same breath she talks about how we watch CNN all day and are brainwashed by talking heads. It's truly surreal. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Then pack the shit out of the courts until we win.

Yes--I agree. There are ways to achieve this, but they aren't happening before November. So the argument seems to be, "fuck you guys for not doing this thing already." I totally believe things can be turned around, including doing away with the electoral college, but that has nothing to do with Trump unless he removes term limits and somehow lives way longer than he should.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, Horza said:

Interesting way of quoting me by not actually quoting me.
 

Though I did say “allow” because I did have in mind people who don’t like the system but bristle and use words like “impossible” and “unrealistic” about changing it when someone suggests it might be an enduring blemish on America’s standing in the court of world history as well as a clear and present danger.  Isn’t the fact that the system is a cudgel in the hands of the Republicans reason enough to abandon the objections about process and possibly?

Go back and read through your first post on this. This isn't about us fixing anything. You already condemned us for this not having been fixed prior to Trump. This is about you shitting on us. I don't care. America fucking sucks. But shitting on us for not fixing the electoral system seems like such a ridiculous reach when you have plenty of tangible, real things to criticize us for. It's a ridiculous argument founded in ignorance. 

[Centrist Simon Steele]

3 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

You are individualizing it and I'm speaking collectively. We are a stupid country if Trump is richly rewarded for killing 200 k Americans. All those conditions you mention are present in every election and we still manage at times to hold leaders accountable at the ballot box at times. And this is an unusual situation to say the least. You'd have to nuke a country or start a civil war to be a worse President than the current one.

I get the gist of the argument, but I cannot rationally accept that somehow we're all responsible for him. I mean, the people who are directly responsible for him are useful idiots. They believe they are in danger from MS13, that he never hurt women, etc. They believe that they are in mortal danger from other races. They're so lost in that vision which wasn't created by Trump, but the Republican party at least since Obama was elected. I guess we could argue the semantics about stupidity, but this kind of fear makes people react in truly crazy ways. 

And this President still has time to start a Civil War and nuke the country. I'm shocked at how many of his followers believe a civil war is coming.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

10 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

And you ignored the point, twice made, that over half the votes went to Hillary. So be mad at those Trumpers, I don't give a shit, but this whole notion that people have the free will to truly decide anything outside the hegemony is just fairy tale BS. We're not special. Nor are you. Had you lived in the US, the outcome would have been the same, whether you voted for Trump, Hillary, or didn't vote at all. It sure is easy to point your finger at the "stupids" for this mess, but this mess is way more complex than what you're arguing. Trump was inevitable. And this is not the first time in history where a country in decline put a demagogue in power. That indicates a systemic issue within society, not an issue with people getting what they deserve.

That wasn't your point tho. And both Kal and I said something to that extent. That approximately half of the votes went to that openly racist, sexist piece of work is an indictment for the US society as a whole. And the low turn out pointed by Ty is not as redeeming as he might hope. As in those not voters were obviously not outraged (enough) to just flat out vote against him. Of course it's easier to just dismiss the whole thing, as an electoral fluke than to just face it, that half the country was ok with it.

There's something like a collective responsibility. Like all of Germany owned, and still does own Hitler, you collectively own Trump. I know it's uncomfortable, and easier and more convenient to pretend you have no part in it. But again, that he got to where he is, is an indictment for US society as a whole. No matter what Falwell might tell you, it wasn't god or anything that put Trump where he is, US citizens did.

You can of course continue to ask yourself: should we blame the goverment, or society, or should we blame the images on TV? To which DMC will dutifully reply: Hell no! Blame Canada.

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I get the gist of the argument, but I cannot rationally accept that somehow we're all responsible for him. I mean, the people who are directly responsible for him are useful idiots. They believe they are in danger from MS13, that he never hurt women, etc. They believe that they are in mortal danger from other races. They're so lost in that vision which wasn't created by Trump, but the Republican party at least since Obama was elected. I guess we could argue the semantics about stupidity, but this kind of fear makes people react in truly crazy ways. 

And this President still has time to start a Civil War and nuke the country. I'm shocked at how many of his followers believe a civil war is coming.

Not Obama. Bill Clinton.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

There's something like a collective responsibility. Like all of Germany owned, and still does own Hitler, you collectively own Trump.

Apples and oranges, guy. 

ETA: And my point before remains valid because 3/4's of the country didn't support him and half of his support just came from those who disliked Hillary. Trump represents and reflects some of the worst parts of our society, but they are minority views. The larger problem is breaking the infrastructure that allows said views to still have power. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Apples and oranges, guy. 

You actually can compare apples and oranges.

Oranges are sweeter than apples. Their flesh is softer. And I prefer apples (no idea, when I last bought/ate an orange). See.

 

[Lollygag]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Apples and oranges, guy. 

ETA: And my point before remains valid because 3/4's of the country didn't support him and half of his support just came from those who disliked Hillary. Trump represents and reflects some of the worst parts of our society, but they are minority views. The larger problem is breaking the infrastructure that allows said views to still have power. 

Not sure if you mean this how it sounds, but this is part of the problem that gave us Trump.

The left needs to acknowledge that a lot of the country is like Bowen Marsh in that they thrive on order, their identity is based on their world view and their place in it and they do not handle change well. At all, as it results in deep breaks in personality. No matter how logical Jon was (he has a high comfort level for change), he still steamrolled over Marsh thinking logic and self-righteousness was enough, not understanding the psychological stress he was causing, and as a result, Marsh and his followers (substantial) broke and blew it all up.

Keep changing, but do so by holding their hands and get neck-deep in how it's affecting them emotionally and help them deal. Otherwise, you get crap like Trump, nationalists and QAnon.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You actually can compare apples and oranges.

Oranges are sweeter than apples. Their flesh is softer. And I prefer apples (no idea, when I last bought/ate an orange). See.

 

No. Despite all his many, many evil shortcomings, Trump isn't the same as Hitler. Not even close. Yet.

And besides, Hitler could at least write his own book and was a decent painter. Trump had to pay people to write his books and use his illegal charity to buy paintings of himself. Again, not the same. See.

33 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Keep changing, but do so by holding their hands and get neck-deep in how it's affecting them emotionally and help them deal. Otherwise, you get crap like Trump, nationalists and QAnon.

You can do the former and still get the latter. Because in many ways that's what happened. 

[HoodedCrow]

Hitler had some redeeming qualities aside from being the Worlds most evil man. His secretary liked him, he was a vegetarian which is pretty sensitive, was an okay painter, served in the military, and could write his own book, as you point out,

Trump uses his power for bad deals, rip people off and is happily causing people’s death.  I think it excites him. In the end Hitler caused a lot more agony, yes, of course. Trump is just getting started with his destruction. To know him is to despise him. 
 

The support for either one seems similar to me. Both heavily use propaganda to promote lies, violence and cover up atrocities. Germans that I knew, did not know about basic things going on. They fell for the racist bull, as Trumpies are now. They liked the economic growth. Hitler went after religious faiths, mainly, but not exclusively Jews, widespread racism with white supremacy, gays, Gypsies, the mentally ill, intellectuals, journalists, artists, dissenters. He had a long list of people that disappeared. The genocide was the most obviously  heinous. Trump wants to kill people in cities because he can make it into a race war. If you don’t support him he will try smearing and economic punishment, but he is actively pushing deadly policies and thousands have died because of him. He manipulated government until he was unstoppable. Both were disliked by their own military leaders. German generals tried to kill Hitler and failed. How is Trump not following Hitlers path?

[A True Kaniggit]

7 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Hitler had some redeeming qualities aside from being the Worlds most evil man. His secretary liked him, he was a vegetarian which is pretty sensitive, was an okay painter, served in the military, and could write his own book, as you point out,

You forgot the big one. 

He did kill Hitler. 

No one else can make that claim. 

[HoodedCrow]

Ha, Hitler did kill Hitler, rather than take what was coming. First, he tried getting cities like Paris or London destroyed. Oh yes, it was thought Hitler had STD brain injury. Trump has mental problems. Both were thought to have issues about genitalia. The biggest difference is that Trump started off rich and his wives had children.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And besides, Hitler could at least write his own book

Eh, only if we broaden the definition to a series of repetitive propagandist ramblings.  If Trump had to spend a year in prison he could do the same - as long as he's allowed spell check.  Hell, just compile the transcripts of all his rambling rally speeches.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Eh, only if we broaden the definition to a series of repetitive propagandist ramblings.  If Trump had to spend a year in prison he could do the same - as long as he's allowed spell check.  Hell, just compile the transcripts of all his rambling rally speeches.

Doubtful. My favorite book is The Count of Monte Cristo, and I highly doubt Donald could rise to the occasion in prison much like Dantes did in the Château d'If. He would crumble to pieces within days of his incarceration. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Doubtful. My favorite book is The Count of Monte Cristo, and I highly doubt Donald could rise to the occasion in prison much like Dantes did in the Château d'If. He would crumble to pieces within days of his incarceration. 

He was actually referring to Mein Kampf and how and when it was written. And the describtion propagandist ramblings is pretty much spot on.

And as required by law. German Audio, yes, it's Serdar.

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Doubtful. My favorite book is The Count of Monte Cristo, and I highly doubt Donald could rise to the occasion in prison much like Dantes did in the Château d'If. He would crumble to pieces within days of his incarceration. 

Hitler couldn't write Count of Monte Cristo either.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Talking about it.

I think this is pretty much what his book would look like.

It's all my recommendation for people participating in Secret Santa this year. You just need to imagine the happy smile of Birdy, when she unpacks her present and finds one of those books. You, just know it's the perfect present for everybody. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

He was actually referring to Mein Kampf and how and when it was written. And the describtion propagandist ramblings is pretty much spot on.

I know and I've read it. 

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Hitler couldn't write Count of Monte Cristo either.

But if he had been offered the leading role in a stage play of it perhaps the world could have been spared. Or maybe not. Negative reviews can do horrible things to actors.

[DMC]

22 minutes ago, Triskele said:

 

Hugh Hewitt's backup tweeted something about how all troops have sworn a lifelong oath to defend the country against all enemies of the state including leftists.  

If that were true at least one of the troops would have leaked it.