Lord Varys Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 I don't think I ever said that Jon wasn't in love with Ygritte. I say that he wasn't in love with her or intending to have romantic or sexual relationship with him when she was hitting on him again and again and eventually coerced him into fucking her. What Jon's POV later tells us very much indicates that he fell in love with her, for instance the fact that he started to like the things he previous didn't find hot. That is something that happens when you fall in love with somebody. Only lust would, in my opinion, mean just a desire to fuck and/or a strong physical attraction. Neither is the case with Jon. He doesn't really want to have sex due to his vows, and he isn't all that attracted to Ygritte when they meet and first hang out. Just compare the impact Ygritte's looks have on Jon to those of Val. Thus I'd say that by the time they are in the cave and climb the Wall Jon has definitely fallen in love with Ygritte ... something that was very much helped by his adolescence hormones and the sex they were having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 He did. Love is not limited to one person. The degree to which a person loves another also vary. He did love the wildling girl but he loves Arya even more. Arya will be the love of his life and it will lead to further tragedy for the both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Ah, I can already hear the pitchforks being sharpened just from the title. However, really think about it, was the relation between Jon and Ygritte love or just plain old lust. Cause Jon is a 16 year old with presumably all the hormones of a 16 year old, who is sworn to celibacy and who, as Lord Varys points out, we never see shaving the carrot. So that's quite a lot of hormones, that could lead to the thing that goes on between him and Ygritte. And after they do it, it's easy to see him sticking around. So what do you think, is it love or just lust? It was puppy love . First taste of love and sex . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Time-wise he knew her for what? A month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 9 hours ago, Roswell said: He did. Love is not limited to one person. The degree to which a person loves another also vary. He did love the wildling girl but he loves Arya even more. Arya will be the love of his life and it will lead to further tragedy for the both of them. Ah, another one. You do know the original draft also had Jaime as a villain who takes the Iron Throne? That thing is just about worthless, and I know they're only cousins, but really Jon and Arya is the most disgusting ship out there. I'm really curious, why do you buy into said ship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a black swan Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 11/15/2020 at 2:17 PM, Curled Finger said: Up front I'm am not a shipper. The kids like Arya and Bran are far too young for me to fit romance into their characters. That's a modern bent I cannot jump. However, many much smarter with far more literary understanding have given me instruction in the text where these romantic outcomes could be possible. While the idea repulses me, there are undertones. I hate the idea, but groundwork has been laid in the text. You can't dismiss any of it out of hand, but I welcome you to stand on the sidelines with me holding your guts from spewing everywhere. To the OP, what true love does any adolescent actually know, particularly during their initial sexual encounters? I think Jon loved Ygritte to the greatest of his ability which was seriously limited. Real love? Not likely. More like a person who plays a large role in shaping what love will be for an adult. Ygritte was a start. If Jon is destined to kill Dany, Ygritte was an excellent experience to begin with. Could you share what has convinced you of the possibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Arya and Sansa are going to finger each other to oblivion while Bran wargs them both, it is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Bronn Urgandy said: Arya and Sansa are going to finger each other to oblivion while Bran wargs them both, it is known. Doing it in front of everybody so that he can assert his dominance, leading to every form of sapient life bowing and crowning him as Bran the Broken, the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, a black swan said: Could you share what has convinced you of the possibility? Honestly, the abhorrence in my own mind prevents me from hanging on to any of the evidence. The excellent @Lady Dacey spent no small amount of words showing me in text where things are possible, perhaps even foreshadowed. This is just my own small mindedness because it isn't a thing I can get my head around. I will need vows and trees and very specific details before I can buy this set up. Very recently, perhaps even here, a poster reminded me that Jon is willing to die for Arya where the convenient breaking of vows was all Ygritte got. Ok, that's persuasive, but I still hate it. There is that original outline found some years back where in GRRM indicated that Jon and Arya would be involved in a love triangle with Tyrion. I think that single piece of musing is likely where most of this stems from, but it was a terrible idea in my mind. I wish I was more help to you. I'm sure any of the Jonya or San San topics could point you in the right direction. I have a hard enough time with Jamie and Cersei, much less Jon and Arya...anyone and Arya, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Very recently, perhaps even here, a poster reminded me that Jon is willing to die for Arya He was also willing to break his vows for Robb, and not even to save him, just to fight for him. It's called loving your family. Or are they/he/she suggesting Jon is going to fuck Robb's decaying corpse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: He was also willing to break his vows for Robb, and not even to save him, just to fight for him. It's called loving your family. Or are you suggesting Jon is going to fuck Robb's decaying corpse? Whoa, hold the bus. I don't like any of it Jon + Arya, Jon + Dany or Jon + Robb. I'm reading exactly like you do, familial love. @Black Swan asked me for examples I don't want to remember so I dredged up the most current I could think of. She deserves the best answer I can give though it in no way indicates I buy into it. My openness to ideas I don't agree with doesn't make me a sympathizer. You just stop that right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Curled Finger said: Whoa, hold the bus. I don't like any of it Jon + Arya, Jon + Dany or Jon + Robb. I'm reading exactly like you do, familial love. @Black Swan asked me for examples I don't want to remember so I dredged up the most current I could think of. She deserves the best answer I can give though it in no way indicates I buy into it. My openness to ideas I don't agree with doesn't make me a sympathizer. You just stop that right now. Sorry, it's just that the idea is so mind boggling stupid and disgusting. I never got incest ships, they're in full blown want to puke territory for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said: Sorry, it's just that the idea is so mind boggling stupid and disgusting. I never got incest ships, they're in full blown want to puke territory for me We are brothers in arms in this, Man. Go see my original reply here. 100% on team PUKE on this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 I actually ship Jon and Wolfs head Robb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 16, 2020 Author Share Posted November 16, 2020 41 minutes ago, Bronn Urgandy said: I actually ship Jon and Wolfs head Robb That's a rookie ship. Come back for Asha and Theon's severed other thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damsel in Distress Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 He did love Y at that moment. But his feelings for her did not overcome his sense of duty. That came later when it was Arya who was on the line. The thing with Y would have gotten stronger had time been given to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 On 11/15/2020 at 2:57 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said: Jesus Fucking Christ, just why? Like I now they're actually cousins and not siblings, but it's still incest, it's disgusting and the more important thing, they grew up as siblings and have a lot of sibling affection for each other. I dont mind/care about incest of fictional characters or even incest of real people as long as it does not concern me. I just do not know where the absurdal idea comes from. As for the topic - I think you may be right, it takes some time to fall in love and there might have been too little of it in this case. Jon snapped out of it pretty fast too. On the other hand he snaps pretty fast out of any blow he gets (life is not sparing him, he he). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 18, 2020 Author Share Posted November 18, 2020 1 minute ago, broken one said: I dont mind/care about incest of fictional characters or even incest of real people as long as it does not concern me. I just do not know where the absurdal idea comes from. I mean if it were just how disgusting it is, maybe I could relate to the feeling, but given the offspring that come from incest... yeah it's beyond fucked up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 On 11/16/2020 at 7:13 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said: Ah, another one. You do know the original draft also had Jaime as a villain who takes the Iron Throne? That thing is just about worthless, and I know they're only cousins, but really Jon and Arya is the most disgusting ship out there. I'm really curious, why do you buy into said ship? It won't happen exactly as the first draft but the main points of the story remains the same in spirit. The story needs a love triangle quickly. The third leg could be Gendry instead of Tyrion. And Jaime is still a villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 9 minutes ago, Roswell said: And Jaime is still a villain. Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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