Dungeons and Dragons and Table Top Gaming

[Werthead]

55 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think that's entirely fair; I think a lot of reluctance is not in terms of the style of play but in having to learn the rules. I grew up where we'd play different types of systems all the friggin time, but we were pretty hardcore geeks who were into debating the intricacies of rules systems and knowing how to do various min/maxxing and whatnot. That isn't the case for a lot of the people that play now and love playing, and they remember full well the barrier to entry and difficulty of learning all the different things they can do. 

For me (running a game for my family) I'll say Baldur's Gate 3 has been amazingly helpful because it's gotten the two people who aren't into rules into knowing all sorts of things about D&D without having to have them read everything. They know about actions and bonus actions and opportunity attacks and feats and spell levels and all sorts of weird intricacies about characters that would have been much harder to teach them via book reading.

I find the former argument to be fairly unconvincing, given that tabletop roleplayers will also usually be video gamers and/or board gamers, requiring rapid learning of new rules on a regular basis. I had a person at my local board game cafe who refused to even think about playing anything other than than 5E because of the time it took to learn the rules, despite them also being a hardcore board gamer who'd turn up every other week with a very large, dense Eurogame with very complex rules, complete with cheat sheets and YouTube advisory videos spooled up and ready to go. Completely bizarre.

TTRPGs are usually built around the same (or very similar) core mechanics of having attributes, target numbers and how you throw dice to resolve them, and it usually takes a few minutes to get used to the core mechanic change from D&D, if grasping all the nuances takes more time, but that happens naturally over gameplay.

Also, 5E is one of the most complicated modern TTRPGs. The only ones on its level or tougher are probably Pathfinder PF2 (although that's probably not more complex, but on the same level, and similar enough to D&D that learning the differences probably seems unnecessary unless people are really keen to ditch 5E) and Shadowrun 6th Edition (Shadowrun being the quintessential great setting searching for good rules, and the fanbase's palpable eagerness in seeing how completely dogshit the new rules are compared to the last set), and then legacy games from years back (hi Palladium!). If you're playing something other than 5E, it will be almost by default more straightforward, easier to learn and more straightforward to grasp than 5E.

There are also a lot of YouTube videos on learning new rules for RPGs in exactly the same way there are for board games, and the latter have been highly praised for driving the modern board gaming explosion.

Edited February 2 by Werthead

[Kalbear]

53 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I find the former argument to be fairly unconvincing, given that tabletop roleplayers will also usually be video gamers and/or board gamers, requiring rapid learning of new rules on a regular basis.

I find the same reluctance to play complicated board games with those same people, so I think this tracks; the difference is that due to a whole bunch of things the overlap of those people is not quite as broad when it comes to D&D.

Mostly, I think that the presentation of the rules in D&D is MUCH worse than it is for other games - board and video games. Especially video games, which often have tutorials and a lot more hands-on playing and replaying that helps. D&D is one of the worst-organized sets of rules I've ever seen right now. I grew up on Palladium shittiness and Shadowrun weirdness and whatnot, and I find 5E to just be absolute trash as far as their rule organization - to the point where I feel like their incompetence is intentional so that you're forced to get online versions of the game that give you hypertext and links and searching. 

53 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Also, 5E is one of the most complicated modern TTRPGs. The only ones on its level or tougher are probably Pathfinder PF2 (although that's probably not more complex, but on the same level, and similar enough to D&D that learning the differences probably seems unnecessary unless people are really keen to ditch 5E) and Shadowrun 6th Edition (Shadowrun being the quintessential great setting searching for good rules, and the fanbase's palpable eagerness in seeing how completely dogshit the new rules are compared to the last set), and then legacy games from years back (hi Palladium!). If you're playing something other than 5E, it will be almost by default more straightforward, easier to learn and more straightforward to grasp than 5E.

I agree, but if all you've known is 5E I think that you'll be scared that everything is just as bad. 

53 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There are also a lot of YouTube videos on learning new rules for RPGs in exactly the same way there are for board games, and the latter have been highly praised for driving the modern board gaming explosion.

I guess my feeling is that there isn't as much overlap on board games vs D&D as you might think. 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

I guess my feeling is that there isn't as much overlap on board games vs D&D as you might think. 

Almost everyone I know who plays TTRPGs also plays board games (although perhaps more of an occasional side-thing), although the reverse is very much not the case, which makes sense as the modern board gaming scene utterly dwarfs the TTRPG scene in scale.

[Werthead]

Quinns from Shut Up & Sit Down has started his own TTRPG review channel as SUASD had been covering more and more TTRPG stuff and they seemed to realise it was blurring their board game channel credentials.

This sounds like an absolutely great game I'd be really keen to try out if the rule book wasn't ridiculously expensive (I can't find it for under £60, which is at least half again, if not twice, what I'd expect for a Blades in the Dark derivation).

 

[IlyaP]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

Almost everyone I know who plays TTRPGs also plays board games (although perhaps more of an occasional side-thing), although the reverse is very much not the case, which makes sense as the modern board gaming scene utterly dwarfs the TTRPG scene in scale.

The wife and I bought the Skyrim board game set a while back, and it's...initially complex and then kinda starts making sense after about an hour. But otherwise, I find board games *so* tedious, and would rather either a cRPG or a TTRPG. 

[Ser Lany]

multiple sets of circumstances are forcing me to start playing with VTT within the next couple of months.  

What is the best one?  Looking on line, it seems like Foundry is pretty good, but I've heard more people mention Roll20.

So thoughts?  (my thoughts were One DnD, since we are already using DnD Beyond, but it's not ready yet)

[baxus]

On 2/2/2024 at 5:46 PM, Werthead said:

I'd advise ripping the band aid off and go with the Free League rules (which are pretty decent).

Reticence to play something that's not 5E is genuinely bizarre. Especially if it's for a short breakaway game on the understanding that you'll go back to 5E down the road.

It's like a movie club only watching Marvel films and throwing a strop when you suggest watching something else (even if it's still something action-comedy adjacent). Or having a book club that only reads Brandon Sanderson novels. There's nothing wrong with Marvel or Brandon Sanderson, but only consuming those forms of media will get deeply tedious after a while.

Especially as I found my DMing skills improved immensely after running other games.

Our regular DM took a look at The One Ring rules and quite liked it, so that' encouraging. I also loved new classes and the low magic setting and all that, but switching from what we've played for 20+ years (3e and 5e combined) to a completely new system would not be that easy.

If it were up to me, I'd love to try both The One Ring and Mistborn (I've bought both) and I remember there were 2 different ASoIaF RPGs which I'd love to try, but there's a learning curve there, and especially for whoever decides to take up GM-ing those. It's not something I'd take up with everything else I have on my plate at the moment, so I can't just push it on anyone else.

EDIT:

I remember trying out a Dark Dungeon RPG, which had some 20-30 pages of rules. Its motto was "Roleplaying not ruleplaying" and it was pretty good, but it had none of accompanying things that make D&D what it is - monster manuals, dm's guides, campaign settings, pantheons etc. It was all very simple, with all the good stuff that goes with it and all the bad stuff, too.

Edited February 5 by baxus

[Werthead]

The first ASoIaF RPG, the one from Guardians of Order from 2005, is my preferred version. It's D&D d20-derived, and jettisons a lot of 3E conventions, so it's oddly not too far from 5E and relatively easy to pick up the rules, as long as you can find a copy.

 

[Toth]

Okay, this is developing scarily quickly.

Earlier today I did the step... I asked in a local tabletop discord whether there is any group willing to adopt a (near) complete newbie. And... somehow one dude PM'd me and after everyone else agreed, it looks like I'll play a game of Star Wars Edge of the Empire on Monday. I quickly found the rule book online (heh) and since I'm (still...) reading the NJO books right now, I pretty much instantly rolled up a character based on Droma, the guy who replaced Chewie as Han's copilot.

Now I'm nervous... of course the guy who invited me asked for a voice chat just as my mother was bustling around in the background, so I got awfully quickly reminded why I put playing tabletop off "until I live on my own"... I hope I won't regret this...

Edited February 8 by Toth

[Jace, Extat]

7 hours ago, Toth said:

Okay, this is developing scarily quickly.

Earlier today I did the step... I asked in a local tabletop discord whether there is any group willing to adopt a (near) complete newbie. And... somehow one dude PM'd me and after everyone else agreed, it looks like I'll play a game of Star Wars Edge of the Empire on Monday. I quickly found the rule book online (heh) and since I'm (still...) reading the NJO books right now, I pretty much instantly rolled up a character based on Droma, the guy who replaced Chewie as Han's copilot.

Now I'm nervous... of course the guy who invited me asked for a voice chat just as my mother was bustling around in the background, so I got awfully quickly reminded why I put playing tabletop off "until I live on my own"... I hope I won't regret this...

Go for it dawg. Just remember you're doing this to have fun and you'll do fine.

Sernpidal's moon ain't gonna fall on ya if you make a faux pass, baby. 

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said:

Sernpidal's moon ain't gonna fall on ya if you make a faux pass, baby. 

Unless he makes a dad joke and isn't actually a dad! In which case it's definitely a faux pa!

 

(I'll see myself out...)

[Jace, Extat]

6 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Unless he makes a dad joke and isn't actually a dad! In which case it's definitely a faux pa!

 

(I'll see myself out...)

Well now I can't change it, it's too funny. My only hope is to pretend I was being meta... that's it. I was being meta! 

[Werthead]

Got a good deal in my local gaming group and  picked up both the Numenera 1st Edition core book and a second copy of Cyberpunk Red for a song.

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

for a song.

For a song?! UKian slang for "not a lot"?

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

For a song?! UKian slang for "not a lot"?

Indeed so.

[Toth]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:49 AM, Jace, Extat said:

Go for it dawg. Just remember you're doing this to have fun and you'll do fine.

Sernpidal's moon ain't gonna fall on ya if you make a faux pass, baby. 

Well, Sernpidal's moon didn't fall on me, but I was dropped right into a firefight because I joined in the middle of an encounter and a Death Trooper quite nearly immediately one-shot me with a ludicrously unlucky double-crit.

Didn't really get to roleplay much because of that because it was just three hours of throwing dice before they had cleared a ship full of Imperials. Will be interesting to see where this goes, because the situation ended up quite bleak with everyone severely wounded, the ship shut down and all I attempts to gain control of its systems failing, with their own ship severely damaged and a Star Destroyer on their tails. That's what you get for taking on missions from the Rebel Alliance...

[Jace, Extat]

Sounds like you got a criminal's fate. Rebel scum! 

 

[Werthead]

Lancer is one of the highest-profile modern TTRPGs, so it was fun to see Quinns' take on it.

His conclusion is that it's a bit too "board game pretending to be an RPG," and lacks a lot of out-of-combat depth, but is still fun.

Interesting as I just picked up MechWarrior: Destiny, which is a rules-lite take on the venerable mech franchise which indeed emphasises out-of-mech roleplaying and adventuring, whilst still allowing for in-mech combat (and even interfaces with both the BattleTech detailed combat rules and the Alpha Strike less-detailed, faster-playing rules).

 

[Kalbear]

Lancer is one of the most amazing settings I've ever read about. 

[Ran]

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Lancer is one of the most amazing settings I've ever read about. 

No kidding. Sounds quite cool. Found this brief article sharing some of the aspects of it.