alienarea Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 If he cannot finish TWoW while most of his previous distractions disappeared due to the pandemic, it will not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 I thought this quote was telling: Quote I need to keep rolling, though. I still have hundreds of more pages to write to bring the novel to a satisfactory conclusion. I'm starting to become suspicious that GRRM may be planning on WOW to be his last book. Or in the alternative finish the story and if necessary break it into two books much like he did with AFFC and ADWD. If so, then perhaps this does justify or at least explain his delay a bit. He's trying to come up with a satisfactory end to the entire tale and not just the penultimate books of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 On 3/10/2021 at 9:11 AM, Frey family reunion said: And yes, TPTWP couldn't have been about the return of dragons to the world, because the prophecy first came about at least a thousand years ago, when dragons and their riders were ruling the world. I disagree. Maester Aemon confirmed that the Prince that was Promised prophecy did include dragons. He said Daenery's dragons proved she was the Princess that was Promised. Quote A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 25 minutes ago, Melifeather said: I disagree. Maester Aemon confirmed that the Prince that was Promised prophecy did include dragons. He said Daenery's dragons proved she was the Princess that was Promised. I think you misunderstood my point. I acknowledged that TPTWP seemed to deal with the following: the battle for the dawn, the involvement of dragons, and some synchronicity with the Azhor Ahai prophecy. So I think it's essential that the prince that was promised prophecy deals with the messiah having a connection with dragons. What I don't think is that the prophecy necessarily dealt with the messiah bringing back dragons from extinction. Based on the timing of the prophecy, it occurred while dragons were aplenty. But dragons and tptwp do go hand in hand. So if there are no dragons then tptwp cannot fulfill his destiny. So if Rhaegar and Aemon believed that his son was tptwp, it stands to reason that they would have been trying to bring back dragons (or at least one dragon) to help him fulfill his destiny. My personal thought is that tptwp prophecy probably did have a unique twist on dragons. I doubt the messiah was just set to be another dragon rider. My guess is that the messiah's ultimate destiny was to become a dragon. Literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: I thought this quote was telling: I'm starting to become suspicious that GRRM may be planning on WOW to be his last book. Or in the alternative finish the story and if necessary break it into two books much like he did with AFFC and ADWD. If so, then perhaps this does justify or at least explain his delay a bit. He's trying to come up with a satisfactory end to the entire tale and not just the penultimate books of the series. We'll have to see how it goes, obviously, but I've been thinking very much the same myself. Ordinarily, while he obviously has every incentive to finish the story himself, he has to recognise the possiblility that someone else might have to do it. In this case, however, there is the horrendous complication of the mummers' farce and its ending, which means it is absolutely essential that he complete his story exactly as he wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: I think you misunderstood my point. I acknowledged that TPTWP seemed to deal with the following: the battle for the dawn, the involvement of dragons, and some synchronicity with the Azhor Ahai prophecy. So I think it's essential that the prince that was promised prophecy deals with the messiah having a connection with dragons. What I don't think is that the prophecy necessarily dealt with the messiah bringing back dragons from extinction. Based on the timing of the prophecy, it occurred while dragons were aplenty. But dragons and tptwp do go hand in hand. So if there are no dragons then tptwp cannot fulfill his destiny. So if Rhaegar and Aemon believed that his son was tptwp, it stands to reason that they would have been trying to bring back dragons (or at least one dragon) to help him fulfill his destiny. My personal thought is that tptwp prophecy probably did have a unique twist on dragons. I doubt the messiah was just set to be another dragon rider. My guess is that the messiah's ultimate destiny was to become a dragon. Literally. Again, I agree. The prophecy far predates the loss of the dragons, and indeed the Doom. There are really two prophecies converging here. The first, which we first hear through Mel, foretelling the appearance of a hero to defeat the cold and the darkness, and then the Dreamer's prophecy that the promised hero will be a scion of House Targaryen. Both prophecies were made in a time of Dragons and indeed Lightbringer itself may have originally been a metaphor for a dragon. Therefore if Rhaegar has convinced himself that he is to be the hero, then he needs to first find himself a dragon, hence Summerhall. In the end of course it was a bust, but then Danaerys the Dragonlord tools up with not just one but three dragons - sorted. And that's why Maester Aemon gets excited enough to forget that he is a sworn brother of the Watch and instead remember his Targaryen heritage. He needs to go to Danaerys to advise and guide her - not to serve as a mere political counsellor - but to guide her in fulfilling her real destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Does Melisandre ever refer to the prince that was promised prophecy? My head cannon only recalls that she was looking for Azor Ahai. If someone knows of text where Melisandre uses the prince that was promised interchangeably with Azor Ahai, please share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 26 minutes ago, Melifeather said: Does Melisandre ever refer to the prince that was promised prophecy? My head cannon only recalls that she was looking for Azor Ahai. If someone knows of text where Melisandre uses the prince that was promised interchangeably with Azor Ahai, please share. Yes, in ASOS: Quote "It means that the battle is begun," said Melisandre. "The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor." Eta: and again in ASOS: Quote “You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby thobbing. “Give me this boy,” she whispered, “and I will give you your kingdom.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: "It means that the battle is begun," said Melisandre. "The sand is running through the glass more quickly now, and man's hour on earth is almost done. We must act boldly, or all hope is lost. Westeros must unite beneath her one true king, the prince that was promised, Lord of Dragonstone and chosen of R'hllor." In all fairness this is more than a touch dodgy and shows Mel is making things up as she goes along The Azor Ahai business comes from out east and doesn't involve Westeros, far less Dragonstone. Neither the version recounted by Mel nor Saladhor San identify AA as a prince. He might be of course, but I'm more inclined to think that she's already grafting the Dreamer's version to make a fable whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Quote From Hibberd's book, "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon, Chapter "Running on Faith, page 253: On the subject of prophecy, the showrunners were in lockstep with Martin's books, where magic is never to be trusted. Cersei was haunted by the witch Maggy the Frog declaring her children would perish and that she would be overthrown by "a younger and more beautiful" queen. But like in the story of Oedipus, Cersei brought about her fate only by desperately trying to avoid it. Melisandre was wrong about Stannis being "the prince that was promised," and very wrong about sacrificing Shereen. But in season two, the Red Woman burned three leaches, plump with Gendry's royal blood, and told Stannis her spell would bring about the deaths of three usurpers, to his claim to the Iron Throne. It was a bold storytelling move to correctly tell viewers that two major characters that Rob Stark and Joffrey Baratheon (along with Balon Greyjoy), were going to be killed in advance. Yet fans were still shocked by those twists because the show had made clear that magic was unreliable. Even now it remains uncertain if Melisandre's sorcery had anything to do with their fates. George R.R. Martin: You're supposed to debate that. Melisandre wanted everyone to think that the spell she did with the leaches killed the three kings, but there is another explanation: Her ability to see the future through the flames showed her that the three kings were going to die because of the machinations of other characters. Seeing their deaths were coming, she staged this demonstration to take credit for their deaths. Martin pointed out that even his use of prophecies had a medieval-history precedent. George R.R. Martin: It happened in the War of the Roses. One of the lords [Sommerset] was prophesied that he would die at [Windsor Castle]. So he always made pains to avoid that castle. But then in the first battle of St. Albans, he was wounded and died outside a pub that had that castle on it' pub sign. You have to look at prophecies carefully and look at the weasel wording. Martin has also used this device with Jojen's green dream of the sea coming to Winterfell and a character drowning. Which led to him avoiding the sea and drowning in the well. Not to mention that the GOHH also saw the death of three kings in her dreams. We've also had a warning about the weasel wording of prophecies from Marwyn. So I suspect that if a prophecy is fulfilled it will come in the most unexpected way and to a character who isn't trying to avoid it or puts little stock in prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 On 2/24/2021 at 2:48 AM, LynnS said: Mel suggests that the power of the Wall can be used and like the fourteen flames; it can end in cataclysm. What sort of cataclysm could be as bad as the Doom of Valyria? You can at least halfway "control" the white walkers by killing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 24 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: What sort of cataclysm could be as bad as the Doom of Valyria? Yes that is the question. Can you imagine something as bad as the Doom of Valyria that involves a wall of ice 400 miles long and 700 feet high. It can only stand up without falling down because of the magic that is woven into it. And now it seems from Melisandre's POV that the magic of the Wall can be accessed and used; which calls to mind Moqorro's warning about delving too deep into the fires and that men are small. I think of the Wall and the Fourteen Flames as something equivalent to the rings of power in the Lord of the Rings. They have to be destroyed. This is beyond the struggle for the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, LynnS said: I think of the Wall and the Fourteen Flames as something equivalent to the rings of power in the Lord of the Rings. They have to be destroyed. This is beyond the struggle for the throne. I don't think the Wall will be destroyed by the end of the series. Just my opinion. I think Moqorro was just talking about the Fourteen Flames, but I'm not exactly sure now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: I don't think the Wall will be destroyed by the end of the series. Just my opinion. I think Moqorro was just talking about the Fourteen Flames, but I'm not exactly sure now. A smart person questions their assumptions. Martin doesn't want his books to be predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, LynnS said: Martin doesn't want his books to be predictable. Very true. 6 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: but I'm not exactly sure now. As this says, I'm not exactly sure about what my opinion is. 1 minute ago, LynnS said: A smart person questions their assumptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said: As this says, I'm not exactly sure about what my opinion is. There is nothing wrong with that and a it's a good place to be. I don't know what is going to happen either. I can only make guesses based on what I read. I'm always open to a better case than my own and new ways of looking at the material. Of another person's opinion, I ask "how could this be true?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Yokay. Anyway, we know what happened to Valyria, everybody whose read the books and then some knows what happened to Valyria. Maybe, in contrast to the fire Doom, there will be an ice doom with like massive snowstorms and ice and bad stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said: Yokay. Anyway, we know what happened to Valyria, everybody whose read the books and then some knows what happened to Valyria. Maybe, in contrast to the fire Doom, there will be an ice doom with like massive snowstorms and ice and bad stuff? I don't know. But ice and fire magic have to go. That power has to be removed to resolve the seasons and bring peace to the land. This isn't just about who is going to claim the Iron Throne. Something to think about. Well I have to go and do stuff around the house and I have some more excerpts to post from "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon". Feel free to peruse some the Heresy threads for ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 I have to eat lunch, so I'll be signing off as well. I might not come back, since the parents would not approve and they're already ticked off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: I have to eat lunch, so I'll be signing off as well. I might not come back, since the parents would not approve and they're already ticked off. Don't tick off your parents and be careful where you go and who talks to you on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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