Rose of Red Lake Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: That's not the only thing that happened. You are ignoring all that she said during Tyrion's trial. She never changed allegiances. She was looking for a change in status the whole time. It's Tyrion's fault that he couldn't see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 9 hours ago, CamiloRP said: It's telling that the thoughts we get in the moment and after are all about how she betrayed him He thinks that while killing her? Hes an angry a little imp 9 hours ago, CamiloRP said: I disagree, I think it was vengeance But you do acknowledge the two gambling guards outside the door? And Tyrions warning to Tywin to stfu 9 hours ago, CamiloRP said: That still doesn't excuse murder. Never excused it. I just dont see black marks as the whole picture. Fuck Melisandres rotten onion. I will never excuse Daeron or all his brothers who perished at his murderers father. 163 randoms were strung up, unexcusable. Lord Sunglass, Brans human snacks or his mind rapes of Hodor, the night is dark man, and full of terror. We declare Tyrion a bad guy and the flood gates open up 9 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Not all whores work in brothels, he was paying her in dresses, food, singers, a place to live and jewelry. She was a whore, he was her client. There might have been some fondness, there probably was, but it wasn't the relationship Tyrion thought it was. Dude she had a job, two of them. In fact Tyrion eventually took her jewels, dresses and was soon not responsible for feeding or housing her, they still fucked. They were dating, if it was Dorne itd be official, Iron Islands they could get married 9 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Unless Cersei made her say this, in which case everyone in her position would've done the same. Cersei didnt make Shae say "Giant of Lannister", maybe she collaborated some if it but some was a Shae original 9 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Would everyone in a three million people city be able to recognize the governor's assistant? No. The bast majority of people wouldn't, and it gets worse once you take TV and the internet out of the equation 500,000 not 3 mil. Plus its 500 in kl so fleabottom is a generous 300k id say. Hes not the governor, hes the prime minister and a colorfully described one at that. His men are wildlings which just draws every eye, even timmits, and the boss henchman spends lots of time recruiting smallfolk to the GC. They know him. 6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I think we're supposed to see him like Deadwood's Al Swearengen. Murders whores but this darker side of himself helps him understand others' dark intentions, and we're supposed to enjoy seeing him put this knowledge to work. Word. Interesting 6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I really don't enjoy it though. All good, Ill enjoy it enough for the both of us 5 hours ago, SeanF said: This thread is surreal in places. The author has described Tyrion as "the villain" The man should be allowed to speak freely without placing his words under a microscope. Hes a writer, not a freestyle artist, but when in rome lol. Lets look at this quote Quote So, you trying to see the world through their eyes to understand why they do the things they do. And we all have, even characters who are thought of to be bad guys, who are bad guys, in some objective sense, don’t think of themselves as bad guys. That’s a comic book kind of thing, where the Red Skull gets up in the morning [and asks] “What evil can I do today?” Real people don’t think that way. We all think we’re heroes, we all think we’re good guys. We have our rationalizations when we do bad things. “Well, I had no choice,” or “It’s the best of several bad alternatives,” or “No it was actually good because God told me so,” or “I had to do it for my family.” We all have rationalizations for why we do shitty things or selfish things or cruel things. -GRRM 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: He thinks that while killing her? Hes an angry a little imp But you do acknowledge the two gambling guards outside the door? And Tyrions warning to Tywin to stfu Never excused it. I just dont see black marks as the whole picture. Fuck Melisandres rotten onion. I will never excuse Daeron or all his brothers who perished at his murderers father. 163 randoms were strung up, unexcusable. Lord Sunglass, Brans human snacks or his mind rapes of Hodor, the night is dark man, and full of terror. We declare Tyrion a bad guy and the flood gates open up Dude she had a job, two of them. In fact Tyrion eventually took her jewels, dresses and was soon not responsible for feeding or housing her, they still fucked. They were dating, if it was Dorne itd be official, Iron Islands they could get married Cersei didnt make Shae say "Giant of Lannister", maybe she collaborated some if it but some was a Shae original 500,000 not 3 mil. Plus its 500 in kl so fleabottom is a generous 300k id say. Hes not the governor, hes the prime minister and a colorfully described one at that. His men are wildlings which just draws every eye, even timmits, and the boss henchman spends lots of time recruiting smallfolk to the GC. They know him. Word. Interesting All good, Ill enjoy it enough for the both of us The man should be allowed to speak freely without placing his words under a microscope. Hes a writer, not a freestyle artist, but when in rome lol. Lets look at this quote Shae is not nice person, but she owed absolutely no loyalty to Tyrion. He was a client who hired her to pretend to be his girlfriend (after Bronn kidnapped her), and he cheated her. Why on earth should she run the risk of torture in order to defend him at his trial? Tyrion was deluding himself to think that Shae loved him or would be loyal to him. Agreeing with the author about his own character is not really "placing his words under a microscope". Obviously, Tyrion is an interesting, and occasionally sympathetic, character, who has reasons and motivations behind his actions. But, I don't have to agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 At the moment my opinion of Tyrion is monstrous. when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked herbloody and ripped her heart out before leaving herfor that dwarf." Lann had his way with Casterly maidens while they slept, and nine months later the women gave birth to golden-haired children while insisting they had never slept with a man. Tysha Stokeworrh Sansa? Her maiden bloody cloak? Was this akin to a wedding ceremony? Some ancient creature or mystical, mythical ability? I’m still considering the above. Only a few people with cruel mouths/lips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: He thinks that while killing her? Hes an angry a little imp But you do acknowledge the two gambling guards outside the door? And Tyrions warning to Tywin to stfu Yes I can, but I think he would've killed her anayway. Quote Never excused it. I just dont see black marks as the whole picture. Fuck Melisandres rotten onion. And I agree with you, that's why I said, there's some good in him, at least in early books, but some things, like rape and murder, you can't excuse, an it ends up making him more bad than good. Also, while you might not be excusing him, you are finding reasons to justify the things he's done, to make his awful deeds look better, to say 'it wasn't that bad' but things aren't like that. Killing someone is wrong, if you had no other choice maybe we can talk about it, but saying 'she betrayed him' doesn't make it less bad, and if you agree I can't see why we're still talking about this. Quote I will never excuse Daeron or all his brothers who perished at his murderers father. This I don't think I understand. Quote 163 randoms were strung up, unexcusable. Agreed, it wasn't a good act, but punishing enemies after a hideous crime (although badly) is not the same as murdering your ex because she betrayed you. Quote Lord Sunglass, Stannis is not a good man. Quote Brans human snacks or his mind rapes of Hodor, the night is dark man, and full of terror. This is awful too, yet Bran isn't entirely aware of what he's doing, and he's a kid. If he goes deeper through this path he will be a force for evil, but it's not the same as Tyrion doing something he knows is wrong to someone he supposedly loves. Quote Dude she had a job, two of them. In fact Tyrion eventually took her jewels, dresses and was soon not responsible for feeding or housing her, they still fucked. Because he promised he eventually would give them back. It was in her best interest to keep fucking with him. Quote They were dating, if it was Dorne itd be official, Iron Islands they could get married Sure, probably, but they were only doing it because he was paying her. If he were to lose all his money, she would leave him. Quote Cersei didnt make Shae say "Giant of Lannister", maybe she collaborated some if it but some was a Shae original This part of the conversation makes no sense. First You said: "Yo, bend over for Cersei. Say whatever the fuck Tywin wants, but the fact is Shae went beyond that. Its one thing to destroy the man, but to destroy what they had, to make his personal shit public and prone to mockery is just od" Implying the problem was the mockery, to that I replied: "So the motive for killing her wasn't the cheating or the fact that she testified against him, it was that she mocked him in public? That's not a good justification. And also they had nothing, he was her client and she was a whore. She owes nothing to him." But then you said: "Course not. Just that she went above and beyond any of the other witnesses, including Taena. She struck him where Tywin taught his kids is the most vulnerable. (snip) She owed him not to make up wild ass stories like how Tyrion plotted to murk Joff and make himself king, I mean come on lol" So the problem wasn't the mockery, is that she lied about him, making him look guilty. To that I said: "Unless Cersei made her say this, in which case everyone in her position would've done the same." And finally you now say: "Cersei didnt make Shae say "Giant of Lannister", maybe she collaborated some if it but some was a Shae original" So, which one is it? What's the problem? The fact that she lied about him plotting to kill Joff, despite Cersei threatening with torture, murder, prison and whatever if she didn't and promising jewels if she did? or the fact that she mocked him in public, which, as a reason for murder is a pretty lame one and makes Tyrion into an even worse person. "She mocked me in public, so I murdered her." Of course it can be both, but even then, neither comes near to a decent motive for murder, even less for the murder of a person you claim to love. Quote 500,000 not 3 mil. Plus its 500 in kl so fleabottom is a generous 300k id say. I don't know where I got that number from, but I was damn sure about it. Quote Hes not the governor, hes the prime minister and a colorfully described one at that. His men are wildlings which just draws every eye, even timmits, and the boss henchman spends lots of time recruiting smallfolk to the GC. They know him. Nope. Most people in the city would have never seen Tyrion. Maybe they heard about him and his minions. based on descriptions they can identify him and the clansmen, but Bronn is more or less a normal looking dude. Most people wouldn't be able to recognize him unless they saw him before (not that likely in a big ass city) and even then, they would only recognize him if they took special notice of him. How often do you forget the face of someone you actually talked to and then meet them again and don't recognize him? How often do you see an actor in a movie and can't place them, only to google them and realize they had a main role in a show or movie you watched many times? No one would remember how the one normal looking dude in Tyrion's posse looked like, no one would describe him well enough that people who hadn't seen him would recognize him. So, for him to be recognized you would need: 1 For Bronn to sell the bard himself, instead of sending one of his cronys. Which may or may not be the case. 2 For the person who bought the meat from Bronn to have seen him before. Which is unlikely. 3 For the person who saw him to have noticed him when he did. Which is also unlikely. 4 For the person who saw him to have a good enough memory to remember the face of the one normal looking dude in a group filled with weirdos he saw once or twice. Unlikely. 5 For him to be able to place him. So yes, I don't think he was recognized. But it still doesn't matter, because the cook might know the meat is human meat (though Bronn would't be doing a good job if he did, as the whole point of turning the singer into stew was getting rid of the evidence, if a random cook is able to say 'Hey, the Dwarf's minion gave me a corpse for me to cook.' to say, Tywin or Cersei, in exchange for a bit of gold, there would be no point in they doing all of this. So not likely that he knows.) But the people who eat the damn thing don't know they are eating a human being. So they would still be committing cannibalism without their knowledge and likely against their will. And the culprit of all of this? Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 14 hours ago, CamiloRP said: Unless Cersei made her say this, in which case everyone in her position would've done the same. We know that Cersei forced her to say that. 11 hours ago, SeanF said: He's a good character, just as Richard III and Iago are good characters, but he's a bad man. I'm confused, how can he be good and bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said: We know that Cersei forced her to say that. I'm confused, how can he be good and bad? Good, in the sense of interesting to read about, and engaging. But, morally bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 OK. Thanks. But he has been doing some good stuff. He helped Penny, instead of leaving her in Volantis, then freed her and Jorah from slavery, when Jorah is the guy that chained him up and smacked a tooth out. He helped feed KL by sending gold cloaks out to hunt in the kingswood, built fishing boats, kicked out the corrupt cops and baby killer Allar Deem.....he's done a lot of good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 23 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said: I think anyone would be ticked off but that doesn't justify murder. Didn't shae testify against him on a crime he didn't commit? I would be pretty ticked off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Prezackly (exactly). Yes, you are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said: when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked herbloody and ripped her heart out before leaving herfor that dwarf." Lann had his way with Casterly maidens while they slept, and nine months later the women gave birth to golden-haired children while insisting they had never slept with a man. Tysha Stokeworrh Sansa? Her maiden bloody cloak? Was this akin to a wedding ceremony? Some ancient creature or mystical, mythical ability? I’m still considering the above. Only a few people with cruel mouths/lips. What does this have to do with the topic of the thread? Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Qohor Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, King17 said: Didn't shae testify against him on a crime he didn't commit? I would be pretty ticked off. So would I. But that still doesn't make it OK for Tyrion to murder her. Besides we don't know under what circumstances Shae testified, she may have been threatened with death or torture, she may have been nervous about where her next meal was going to come from. If I was a penniless, friendless prostitute and Tywin or Cersei asked me to testify against a client, I probably would be scared about what would happen if I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said: she may have been nervous about where her next meal was going to come from. If she's so freaking worried, go to Chataya's and get a job. It would be horrible, but you'd be fed. Work in the kitchen's. Do something. She's not some lazy princess sitting in a tower doing nothing but brushing her hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Qohor Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: If she's so freaking worried, go to Chataya's and get a job. It would be horrible, but you'd be fed. Work in the kitchen's. Do something. She's not some lazy princess sitting in a tower doing nothing but brushing her hair. Yeah but to what extent would Chataya be able to protect her from the might of Tywin or the Queen and all their soldiers and spies? Also Chataya may not be hiring. Kings Landing saw a rush of refugees from the War of the five Kings, and with trade heavily disrupted, its likely there's a lot of unemployment going around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 7 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said: Also Chataya may not be hiring. Kings Landing saw a rush of refugees from the War of the five Kings, and with trade heavily disrupted, its likely there's a lot of unemployment going around. If this is the case, then why did Tyrion consider sending her to Chataya's in ASOS? Tyrion was going to make as good a marriage for her as a "common" person could get, to Ser Tallad (the common person thing is completely irrational as the nobles are also humans). 7 minutes ago, Lady_Qohor said: Yeah but to what extent would Chataya be able to protect her from the might of Tywin or the Queen and all their soldiers and spies? Varys is gone with Tyrion, and Cersei has more concerns than finding one girl in a city of half a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Qohor Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 15 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said: If this is the case, then why did Tyrion consider sending her to Chataya's in ASOS? Tyrion was going to make as good a marriage for her as a "common" person could get, to Ser Tallad (the common person thing is completely irrational as the nobles are also humans). Varys is gone with Tyrion, and Cersei has more concerns than finding one girl in a city of half a million. Tyrion, at that point, is a rich and powerful Lannister. Even if he doesn't compensate Chataya financially, she may benefit down the line from doing him a favour. Shae meanwhile is a penniless friendless prostitute whose only benefactor is in chains. What reason does she have to think that Chataya will be kind to her. The woman's running a business not a shelter for the many many unemployed people of Kings Landing. We know Cersei is vindictive and vengeful to the point of it being against her own interests. Look how far she goes to try to get Bronn killed. Even if she does have better things to think about, Shae doesn't know that. And should she stake her life on it? Don't forget that most of what she's heard about Cersei and Tywin has come from Tyrion and he won't have been telling her pleasant tales. Part of me does wonder if Shae was coerced/forced to be in Tywin's bed that night. She knows what happened to Tysha, how likely is it she'd proactively pursue the man who had her client's first wife gang raped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Then why did she smile and say "my lord?" That doesn't sound like the correct behavior for your situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 54 minutes ago, King17 said: Didn't shae testify against him on a crime he didn't commit? I would be pretty ticked off. Shae did not have any choice in the matter, once Cersei came calling. Tyrion is aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamiloRP Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said: We know that Cersei forced her to say that. Yes, that was the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Tywin taught his kids the most vulnerable part of a person. You shouldn't leave somebody's personal stuff out in the open. It's personal for a reason. What Shae did was strike right at that. And you guys say that Shae screwed Tyrion over because she wants to get higher. Looking at Westerosi society do you HONESTLY think that this is POSSIBLE? Tyrion was going to make her as high a marriage as she could've gotten, but she decided to pee all over it. Then she screws his dad for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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