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Falcon and The Winter Soldier: These Turkish Delights Have Violent Ends (Spoilers)

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14 hours ago, RumHam said:

It seems pretty clear that Bucky doesn't consider himself an avenger. I don't see why he would. He only fought with them against Thanos. So if he's an avenger so is Howard the Duck. 

I would assume the Avengers actually have some sort of set list of who is in the Avengers and Lemar is someone who would have access to that list. Neither Sam or Bucky tell Lemar he's wrong for calling Bucky an Avenger. And we don't know what Bucky has been doing in the last six month.

 

My favored is explanation is that the show is badly written and Marvel intentionally tries to keep everything as vague as possible.

13 hours ago, DMC said:

Count me among those who is unimpressed with Sam's new suit.  Him lecturing (US?) Senators in that thing looked pretty ridiculous - even within a superhero universe.  More important than the aesthetics, though, after the penultimate episode I expected the suit to be an "equalizer" of sorts, being from the Wakandans.  Basically, a Captain America version of the Black Panther suit with all its heightened abilities.  However, there was little to no indication of that in the prolonged action sequence in the finale, which was weird.

On people recognizing Bucky - I think it's pretty absurd to compare him to Osama Bin Laden.  First of all, the attack in Civil War is not anything like 9/11 - at least to Americans.  The most famous victim that we know of was an African king.  Second, he was exonerated of that attack by the end of Civil War.  Stark finds out Bucky was framed and has Friday send the information to Ross, presumably meaning the US government knows he wasn't culpable (not to mention, of course, they incarcerate Zemo presumably for that exact crime).  While Bucky may be still be a "fugitive" at the end of Civil War when T'Challa agrees to harbor him, it's quite the stretch to think he'd be a particularly famous one after those events.

Only absurd in the sense that Bucky Barnes is far more important, famous, and interesting in the MCU than Osama Bin Laden ever was in our world. Was Osama bin Laden best friends with the most admired man in America? Did bin Laden kill JFK? Did Bin Laden murder faux Elon Musk's parents (one of whom was faux-Howard Hughes)?Did bin Laden engage in multiple prolonged battles in the streets of America with other famous people involving explosives and automatic weapons? Was bin Laden a key player in the destruction of faux-CIA (and I mean that literally, faux-Langley gets flattened by a faux-aircraft carrier)? Did bin Laden bomb the U.N. and kill the head of state of the most powerful nation in the world?  Did we than have a bunch of video of bin Laden being involved in a high speed chase in the middle of a city?  After being apprehended did bin Laden break out of prison and beat a dozen people to death and get in a fistfight with Vladimir Putin, Elon Musk, and Maria Sharapova? Did bin Laden then go to an international airport and cause a fight between the 1990s Chicago Bulls that resulted in large scale destruction and Dennis Rodman being crippled for life.  Did we than find out that bin Laden actually didn't bomb the U.S.S. Cole (but was still totally involved in 9/11 and killing Kennedy). Did bin Laden than go on the run for two years with his allies Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Patty Hearst, and Maria Sharapova?

 

Obviously it's a huge stretch that this person is famous.  I don't know why random people in Latvia and Madripoor keep identifying him on sight.  That's clearly just bad writing on Marvel's part.  Bucky Barnes shouldn't be any more famous than Cliven Bundy.

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Supposedly it is a Vibranium-powered suit that has some similar capabilities to absorb damage and enhance damage that BP's suit does. 

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On 4/25/2021 at 4:41 AM, Spockydog said:

The suit looks awful. Why is there so much white? Especially around the head. Hmm?

I thought the exact same thing.  It was too white.  It kind of made Sam look a bit silly.  Superhero costumes generally only work when they are a tad darker, so they don't stand out too much.  When Sam was giving his speech to the, um, UN (?) guy at the end he kind of looked like he just walked out of a cosplay convention at a comic con.  

Personally I thought they should have gone mainly dark blue with some white edging, and keep his wings red as a call back to his Falcon suit.  

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My other big issue with the series, is that I never really did get my head wrapped around the controversy of what the UN was doing.  The thing that the flag smashers were all up in arms about.  I mean, they were trying to resettle the people that were displaced for five years right?  At least I think that's what the issue was.  So, um, what exactly was so controversial about it?  I mean the governments have to figure out something don't they?  I guess we were supposed to equate it with the US's immigration policy, but I'm not exactly sure how.

I guess the more ficitional a "real world" issue is made the less it resonates.  Half the world's population disappearing only to reappear five years later isn't exactly a hot button issue that I worry about too much.

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6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My other big issue with the series, is that I never really did get my head wrapped around the controversy of what the UN was doing.  The thing that the flag smashers were all up in arms about.  I mean, they were trying to resettle the people that were displaced for five years right?  At least I think that's what the issue was.  So, um, what exactly was so controversial about it?  I mean the governments have to figure out something don't they?  I guess we were supposed to equate it with the US's immigration policy, but I'm not exactly sure how.

I guess the more ficitional a "real world" issue is made the less it resonates.  Half the world's population disappearing only to reappear five years later isn't exactly a hot button issue that I worry about too much.

They're kicking the people who settled in these places - often from entire other countries - out of their homes and places they worked and into refugee camps and other places. These are people who were begged to move in  and help out for 5 years, established lives and homes and jobs, and  then they're being booted out. 

The issue isn't that the people who were out for 5 years had no place to go - it's that the people who were still around are being forcibly removed. 

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Just now, Karlbear said:

They're kicking the people who settled in these places - often from entire other countries - out of their homes and places they worked and into refugee camps and other places. These are people who were begged to move in  and help out for 5 years, established lives and homes and jobs, and  then they're being booted out. 

The issue isn't that the people who were out for 5 years had no place to go - it's that the people who were still around are being forcibly removed. 

Oh, ok.  I thought they were muttering about keeping the displaced people in internment camps or something.  But if the issue is just kicking those dirty squatters out, :dunno::D

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Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Oh, ok.  I thought they were muttering about keeping the displaced people in internment camps or something.  But if the issue is just kicking those dirty squatters out, :dunno::D

Yeah, well, I think the folks who are getting kicked out are kind of mad about it.

But that's why the Flag Smashers are doing that whole One World, One People thing - because so many people moved and consolidated and became one community in that 5 years, or at least a lot bigger of a community, and now they're being forced to go back to what it was like before except worse. And often at the point of a gun. 

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2 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

Yeah, well, I think the folks who are getting kicked out are kind of mad about it.

But that's why the Flag Smashers are doing that whole One World, One People thing - because so many people moved and consolidated and became one community in that 5 years, or at least a lot bigger of a community, and now they're being forced to go back to what it was like before except worse. And often at the point of a gun. 

I was kind of being tongue in cheek.  But like I said above, the more ludicrous the premise the less it apparently resonates with me.  With Wandavision, it was pretty ludicrous, but at the core it was a fairly easy emotional hook.  Wanda had to say goodbye to her family.  Grief, loss they are easy things to digest and empathize with.

The more complicated the issue is, the less its going to make an emotional impact when you couple it with an impossible premise.

I suppose the analogy I should have been thinking of is the Israeli - Palestinian issue.  

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Posted (edited)

I think unfortunately there's a TON of really amazing story elements that the 5 year blip introduces - massive power vacuums, consolidation of basic resources and utilities, supervillains that could be really wreaking havoc quietly or loudly  - and then the result of the population doubling.

And not just here either! What does the Kree homeworld look like after this? What do some of the other planets look like? Hell, what does an ecology where half of the population just comes back after being reduced look like? Does it include plants? 

Hell, think about what kind of tech people were using back in 2016 that we're doing now in 2021. Maybe the people of 2023 could actually buy a graphics card!

There's such a breadth of amazing things to mine - think the Leftovers but far more impactful and not quite as stupidly navelgazing - that they could do. But they're almost certainly not going to do that, because comics (and comic movies) are invariably going to be about keeping status quo, even when it makes no sense to do so.

Edited by Karlbear

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42 minutes ago, Lord of Rhinos said:

Was Osama bin Laden best friends with the most admired man in America? Did bin Laden kill JFK? Did Bin Laden murder faux Elon Musk's parents (one of whom was faux-Howard Hughes)?Did bin Laden engage in multiple prolonged battles in the streets of America with other famous people involving explosives and automatic weapons? Was bin Laden a key player in the destruction of faux-CIA (and I mean that literally, faux-Langley gets flattened by a faux-aircraft carrier)? Did bin Laden bomb the U.N. and kill the head of state of the most powerful nation in the world?  Did we than have a bunch of video of bin Laden being involved in a high speed chase in the middle of a city?  After being apprehended did bin Laden break out of prison and beat a dozen people to death and get in a fistfight with Vladimir Putin, Elon Musk, and Maria Sharapova? Did bin Laden then go to an international airport and cause a fight between the 1990s Chicago Bulls that resulted in large scale destruction and Dennis Rodman being crippled for life.  Did we than find out that bin Laden actually didn't bomb the U.S.S. Cole (but was still totally involved in 9/11 and killing Kennedy). Did bin Laden than go on the run for two years with his allies Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Patty Hearst, and Maria Sharapova?

 

How did Maria Sharapova get involved in this?  Not to mention poor Patty Hearst.  Carter (and Clinton) pardoned her - LEAVE HER ALONE!

Anyway, I hope this isn't serious.

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9 minutes ago, Karlbear said:

I think unfortunately there's a TON of really amazing story elements that the 5 year blip introduces - massive power vacuums, consolidation of basic resources and utilities, supervillains that could be really wreaking havoc quietly or loudly  - and then the result of the population doubling.

And not just here either! What does the Kree homeworld look like after this? What do some of the other planets look like? Hell, what does an ecology where half of the population just comes back after being reduced look like? Does it include plants? 

Hell, think about what kind of tech people were using back in 2016 that we're doing now in 2021. Maybe the people of 2023 could actually buy a graphics card!

There's such a breadth of amazing things to mine - think the Leftovers but far more impactful and not quite as stupidly navelgazing - that they could do. But they're almost certainly not going to do that, because comics (and comic movies) are invariably going to be about keeping status quo, even when it makes no sense to do so.

That would be too sci-fi.  Comic book worlds have to resemble ours as much as possible, only with aliens and mythological gods flying around and super science that can only be used for hand to hand combat.

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Is Bucky an Avenger or not? Can't it be both?  Steve Rogers, by virtue of that final battle with Thanos, seemed to imply all the Avengers assembled...Bucky, certainly, by Steve's light, was an Avenger. Bucky obviously doesn't consider himself worthy of it.  Is there an official list? Who knows. Maybe everyone who fought Thanos is considered one by the general public, but on some official list, he isn't...

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Can't think too hard about the Blip mechanics. What about airline passengers? Did they reappear at 30,000 feet, and have an experience roughly similar to the whale in Hitchhiker's Guide? What about a few hundred billion mosquitoes, or some crippling virus from 5 years ago? Was the return at the same date as the snap, or did any migrating animal just re-appear a few hundred or thousand miles from where its body expects it to be?

Thankfully, it's a comic book movie, so the obvious and correct answer is "The Infinity Stones worked all that out off-screen, trust us."

 

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5 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

Can't think too hard about the Blip mechanics. What about airline passengers? Did they reappear at 30,000 feet, and have an experience roughly similar to the whale in Hitchhiker's Guide? What about a few hundred billion mosquitoes, or some crippling virus from 5 years ago? Was the return at the same date as the snap, or did any migrating animal just re-appear a few hundred or thousand miles from where its body expects it to be?

Thankfully, it's a comic book movie, so the obvious and correct answer is "The Infinity Stones worked all that out off-screen, trust us."

 

Well, that I  think is explained with the 'everyone is back and okay', so while they might return comically they wouldn't be hurt when they return. 

The mechanics are the least interesting part to me, though. It's much more of a 'you disappear for 5 years along with 50% of the world - and then come back. What do they react like? What has happened in a close to apocalypse? What do politics or the economy or infrastructure look like? 

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Agreed that societal impacts from the return of a few billion people makes for some interesting dynamics. I think FnWS dug into it with the Flag Smashers and all that, but relatively misfired in its execution. It certainly was a far more interesting take than Far From Home, which shrugged it off with a couple jokes about that one fellow being handsome now.

It would be pretty interesting if Marvel allowed someone to film a story dealing with the Blip and return without a super hero ever on the screen (other than on a TV broadcast in the introductory scene or something. If any combination of my immediate family had been blipped, it would have had colossal ramifications; I assume anyone here would see the same with theirs.

It would have been the single most important moment of human history, that's certain, and I think all of Phase 4 is going to need to deal with it directly.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

How did Maria Sharapova get involved in this?  Not to mention poor Patty Hearst.  Carter (and Clinton) pardoned her - LEAVE HER ALONE!

Anyway, I hope this isn't serious.

It is as serious as post arguing about a fictional public's reaction to a fictional character should be.

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18 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

Agreed that societal impacts from the return of a few billion people makes for some interesting dynamics. I think FnWS dug into it with the Flag Smashers and all that, but relatively misfired in its execution. It certainly was a far more interesting take than Far From Home, which shrugged it off with a couple jokes about that one fellow being handsome now.

It would be pretty interesting if Marvel allowed someone to film a story dealing with the Blip and return without a super hero ever on the screen (other than on a TV broadcast in the introductory scene or something. If any combination of my immediate family had been blipped, it would have had colossal ramifications; I assume anyone here would see the same with theirs.

It would have been the single most important moment of human history, that's certain, and I think all of Phase 4 is going to need to deal with it directly.

I dunno - while it's super big of a deal, knowing that alien races are out there, are real, and actually want to destroy the planet or take it over seems like it should be a bit bigger of a deal for modern society than people gave it credit for. 

Or being able to replace all energy production with clean energy, like Stark does in one small thing randomly. 

Or ACTUALLY HAVING TIME TRAVEL THAT WORKS

 

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Excellent point. Why hasn't time travel been monetized yet? This is America for fucks sake. Within 6 months of Banner and Stark just inventing time travel because it's important, we'd definitely have ripoffs zipping people back, possibly missing appendages or appearing in a quantum flux, for like $10,000 an appointment.

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12 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

Excellent point. Why hasn't time travel been monetized yet? This is America for fucks sake. Within 6 months of Banner and Stark just inventing time travel because it's important, we'd definitely have ripoffs zipping people back, possibly missing appendages or appearing in a quantum flux, for like $10,000 an appointment.

The time machine itself was destroyed, Tony is dead, and Banner is too honorable to unleash time travel on the world. Now Rocket OTOH...

Plus, as we will soon learn in the Loki series, there is this organization called the Timekeepers who presumably don't want people messing with time travel.

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